.

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I did.  I also noted it said "strive".  That's her interpretation, not the Bishops.

Indeed it does... Also know that while most of the time the interview will simply be a question and answer as @Jane_Doe has listed the Bishop (or Interviewer) is not limited just asking those question if they think something is amiss.  For example if the Bishop knows a person has not paid any tithing for 5 years and that person declares they are a full tithe payer the bishop is fully authorized to ask follow up questions to figure out why the person has reached that conclusion and accept or correct and necessary.  Because it is not just the bishop that can reach wrong conclusions. 

In this case the Bishop was not necessary out of line ask and be concerned about tithing and attendance...  He simply did not handle it as well as one might have hoped..  @priesthoodpower appears to have handled that issue as one should.  That is how one sustains while disagreeing with a flawed human that you believe that God has called to be over you.

[Grunt]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Indeed it does... Also know that while most of the time the interview will simply be a question and answer as @Jane_Doe has listed the Bishop (or Interviewer) is not limited just asking those question if they think something is amiss.  For example if the Bishop knows a person has not paid any tithing for 5 years and that person declares they are a full tithe payer the bishop is fully authorized to ask follow up questions to figure out why the person has reached that conclusion and accept or correct and necessary.  Because it is not just the bishop that can reach wrong conclusions. 

In this case the Bishop was not necessary out of line ask and be concerned about tithing and attendance...  He simply did not handle it as well as one might have hoped..  @priesthoodpower appears to have handled that issue as one should.  That is how one sustains while disagreeing with a flawed human that you believe that God has called to be over you.

Am I mistaken in understanding that a Bishop would never know if someone hadn't paid a tithe in 5 years unless that person admitted as such?  Can't you pay your tithe online directly to the SLC?

 

@Jane_Doe's answer led me to believe that it was essentially straight forward questions relying on your honesty and certification.  After all, nobody knows your heart but you and God.  Your answer is more likened to a hot seat, which is what I initially took issue with.  I'm unsure how the Bishop could know the answer to most of those questions without being judgmental and assuming to know your heart.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Am I mistaken in understanding that a Bishop would never know if someone hadn't paid a tithe in 5 years unless that person admitted as such?  Can't you pay your tithe online directly to the SLC?

You can pay online, but that system knows what ward you're in¹ and the funds go partly toward paying for your ward to function.  If you don't pay online, you're supposed to give tithing to a member of the bishopric.  Either way, at the end of each year, you are supposed to go to tithing settlement where the bishop asks you if you're a full tithe payer.  He knows how much you've donated (there's a report), but not whether that constitutes a full tithe or not - you tell him that.

¹ Unless, I suppose, you've moved and not told anyone where you've gone and no one can find you to transfer your records to the new ward, then you'd be counted as a member of your "last known ward" (my term, not the Church's).

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

You can pay online, but that system knows what ward you're in¹ and the funds go partly toward paying for your ward to function.  If you don't pay online, you're supposed to give tithing to a member of the bishopric.  Either way, at the end of each year, you are supposed to go to tithing settlement where the bishop asks you if you're a full tithe payer.  He knows how much you've donated (there's a report), but not whether that constitutes a full tithe or not - you tell him that.

¹ Unless, I suppose, you've moved and not told anyone where you've gone and no one can find you to transfer your records to the new ward, then you'd be counted as a member of your "last known ward" (my term, not the Church's).

Interesting.  Thank you for that.  I saw it posted on other sites that members were paying online because they had an issue with the bishop and it was how they could pay without him knowing what they paid.   I suppose this is something else I'll have to ponder.

[estradling75]

Just now, Grunt said:

Am I mistaken in understanding that a Bishop would never know if someone hadn't paid a tithe in 5 years unless that person admitted as such?  Can't you pay your tithe online directly to the SLC?

 

@Jane_Doe's answer led me to believe that it was essentially straight forward questions relying on your honesty and certification.  After all, nobody knows your heart but you and God.  Your answer is more likened to a hot seat, which is what I initially took issue with.  I'm unsure how the Bishop could know the answer to most of those questions without being judgmental and assuming to know your heart.

Again most of the time it is like @Jane_Doe in fact all the ones I have been in as an interviewee have been, the ones I have given (as interviewer) have been.  However this one time when I was giving an interview the Sister said "No" to the tithing question.  I was not a Bishop (just a Councilor) I had no authority to work with someone in this case.  My instructions were to stop the interview and send the person to the Bishop.  Which I did.  I told the Bishop privately right away (and just after he had finished interviewing the husband) and he called them both in to talk about it.

As for tithing the church has to keep records.. it would be an accounting nightmare if it did not.

Once a year near the end of the year the ward will hold tithing settlement.  During this time the financial (for the year) and membership records the church holds are printed out and given to the member so they can verify the accuracy.  (Because mistakes happen). Then they meet with the Bishop and with the records right there get to declare their tithing status. (In addition to any declarations they make in interviews through out the year)

Some people choose not to attend this meeting and they aren't forced to...  The bishop does not handle the day to day collection of tithes and offerings but he is not clueless either, and if he feels the need he can get details.  Most of the time members who don't pay tithing don't try to go to the temple so it is not issue.  

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Am I mistaken in understanding that a Bishop would never know if someone hadn't paid a tithe in 5 years unless that person admitted as such?  Can't you pay your tithe online directly to the SLC?

 

@Jane_Doe's answer led me to believe that it was essentially straight forward questions relying on your honesty and certification.  After all, nobody knows your heart but you and God.  Your answer is more likened to a hot seat, which is what I initially took issue with.  I'm unsure how the Bishop could know the answer to most of those questions without being judgmental and assuming to know your heart.

The questions are very straight forward.  That doesn’t mean no one can ever have a conversation about things.  Using a real world life example from my life: I was once in a temple recommend interview, and we got to the “do you keep the law of chastity?” question.  He asked me, and I said yes.  The official recommend question done.

 He then asked me a follow up question (NOT part of the official interview): “What does keeping the Law of Chasity mean to you?”  So we chatted about the Law of Chasity- nothing personal or anything, but like a mini Sunday School lesson and an opportunity to teach.  Nothing like a hot seat.

Now, sometimes people need clarification on things and upon receiving that clarification the answer might be different.  A different example: I have a friend who… frankly he was in denial that what he was doing cheating on his wife and totally unchaste.  Now he’s had a pastor point this out to him and is realizing what he’s doing is wrong and working on it. But before he had his denial blinders on—it was only after receiving guidance from his pastor that he was able to see that his actions were unchaste and he was in need of repentance.  (My friend is not LDS, hence the term “pastor”, but the role being served is the same).

Edited September 6, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Grunt]

Thank you.  The thought of this raises new issues for me.  I'm glad I've taken the time to fully investigate the church.  

[Jane_Doe]

Another note on tithing:

There are records of how much tithing you've paid-- because we keep records of things.  When you go into tithing settlement, the clerk will print out your record and hand it to you.  You then go into the bishop's office and he'll ask (essentially) "is this the right?".  It gives you an opportunity to check that the bookkeeping is right.  You also get asked during a TR interview "do you pay a full tithe"?  That's up to you to say yes or no. 

Now, if you live a fancy life style that says you have lots of money, and declared yourself to be a full tithe payer with $10 of tithing... that does seem a bit strange.  In that case a bishop might take the opportunity to chat about tithing and explain it more.  But it is always up to you to honestly say if you're a full tithe payer.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[my two cents]

_{fwiw - The last few tithing settlements I've been to, the bishop hasn't even looked at the paper. He just marks the box (ie full, partial).}

Edited September 6, 2017 by my two cents

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, my two cents said:

_{fwiw - The last few tithing settlements I've been to, the bishop hasn't even looked at the paper. He just marks the box (ie full, partial).}

That is my usual experience as well. 

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That is my usual experience as well. 

Indeed...  Most of the time has been spent getting to know us better

[Anddenex]

On 9/3/2017 at 10:02 PM, priesthoodpower said:

Tithing is defined as one tenth of your increase. I was under the impression that it is based off of money earned and not gifted.

My 14yr old who doesnt work neither gets paid for household chores couldn't get her temple recommend to attend youth baptisms next month.

"Bishop asked me if I received any money recently and I said I got birthday money last month, he said I should have paid tithing on that".

If this is correct information, the bishop is stepping bounds pertaining to tithing and your daughter. Birthday gifts, isn't something we are required to pay tithing on. If an individual wants to pay tithing or chooses to pay a fast offering on the gifted money that is up to them, not the bishop.

I had a wise bishop share with me once in college when he asked if I was a full-tithe payer. I responded, "Yes." He then asked if I received any money for living from my parents (who already paid tithes on), and I said "Yes." In the spirit of giving I would invite you to think about "fast-offerings" with this money. From then on, I paid fast offering from the money received from my parents that helped with living expenses.

You have two options: speak with the bishop to clarify any misunderstandings, and if the information is correct, I would reach out to your stake president if you feel things are not  resolved. If someone gifted a car, you don't pay tithing of 10% for the potential cost of the car. You can show gratitude in other ways to the Lord.

Bishops are not to extend beyond what a tithe is, and the temple recommend question.

EDIT: seems I am a little late as you have already talked to bishop and it appears resolution.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Anddenex

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

I did.  I also noted it said "strive".  That's her interpretation, not the Bishops.

Within reason though, and in order for a person to be considered "active" they are attending at least once a month (obviously there are people who can't attend sabbath because they work on Sunday, that is a different story which can be worked through with council with bishop and stake president). So a person that says "Yes" to "striving" and they have only attended 2 times in 12 months...yes, this type of scenario is up to the bishop's discretion

[Guest]

I'm not writing this as a rip on PP.  But he brings up something about tithing that I'm actually surprised about.

I get that tithing is up to personal interpretation.  But is anyone aware of a CHILD receiving gift money and not paying tithing on it?  Most families I know often say something similar to what I'm about to say here:

From an overall stand point, it usually doesn't make sense for anyone to pay tithing on gift money -- especially from parents.  Most of the time, my kids get gifts from me and that money I've earned has already been tithed on.  So, it isn't about that.  

But if the whole reason I'm giving them this money is for them to learn about finances and making good financial decisions, then they need to also learn about tithing.  It is an important part of financial decisions.  And they will also learn that we do receive blessings from paying tithing.

By not teaching our children to tithe, we are failing them as parents.  How are they to learn the principle of tithing?  We're not talking about a 5 year old who cannot even add 2+2.  We're talking about a teenager who needs to start making real financial decisions.  Wouldn't it be beneficial to teach them starting at 8 years old?  By the time they are 12 and mowing lawns and tutoring and so forth that they can learn what financial decisions to make as well as the responsibility of paying tithing?

I don't think it is necessarily wrong regarding the tithing principle for her to not pay tithing on the gift money.  But I think the learning opportunity is not being taken advantage of in this situation.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm not writing this as a rip on PP.  But he brings up something about tithing that I'm actually surprised about.

I get that tithing is up to personal interpretation.  But is anyone aware of a CHILD receiving gift money and not paying tithing on it?  Most families I know often say something similar to what I'm about to say here:

From an overall stand point, it usually doesn't make sense for anyone to pay tithing on gift money -- especially from parents.  Most of the time, my kids get gifts from me and that money I've earned has already been tithed on.  So, it isn't about that.  

But if the whole reason I'm giving them this money is for them to learn about finances and making good financial decisions, then they need to also learn about tithing.  It is an important part of financial decisions.  And they will also learn that we do receive blessings from paying tithing.

By not teaching our children to tithe, we are failing them as parents.  How are they to learn the principle of tithing?  We're not talking about a 5 year old who cannot even add 2+2.  We're talking about a teenager who needs to start making real financial decisions.  Wouldn't it be beneficial to teach them starting at 8 years old?  By the time they are 12 and mowing lawns and tutoring and so forth that they can learn what financial decisions to make as well as the responsibility of paying tithing?

I don't think it is necessarily wrong regarding the tithing principle for her to not pay tithing on the gift money.  But I think the learning opportunity is not being taken advantage of in this situation.

I actually taught an Achievement Days activity on budgeting/tithing/money yesterday, so this has been something on my mind a lot lately. ( @Grunt, Achievement Days in the weekday activities for the 9-11 year old girls).  My group is very chatty, so I heard lots about the girl's allowances, earning money for good grades, gifts, etc.  I also heard about which things the girls spend money on, including tithing.  

 I observed is that the girls who come from really active families do know about tithing a lot and their parents do encourage them to tithe on any money the receive as a teaching tool.  In the little "Life" game we played, they were really quick to tithe right away.  That's great.

I also observed that the girls who come from less active families didn't really know much about tithing, and tended to be quieter about the subject.  I saw one girl "Mary", sheepishly moved some of the "allowance money" she received in the game from some other category to "tithing" as a more vocal active girl was talking about paying tithing.  Mary doesn't come from an active family-- in fact, she didn't even know where the church bathroom is.  I in NO way judge her for not paying tithing- she hasn't been taught.  Especially tithing on gifts- which is totally not required.  I also went out of my way to include her and make sure she wasn't embarrassed or feel bad in any way.  It was a learning opportunity and I could totally teach without making her feel bad.  

[Grunt]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I actually taught an Achievement Days activity on budgeting/tithing/money yesterday, so this has been something on my mind a lot lately. ( @Grunt, Achievement Days in the weekday activities for the 9-11 year old girls).  My group is very chatty, so I heard lots about the girl's allowances, earning money for good grades, gifts, etc.  I also heard about which things the girls spend money on, including tithing.  

 I observed is that the girls who come from really active families do know about tithing a lot and their parents do encourage them to tithe on any money the receive as a teaching tool.  In the little "Life" game we played, they were really quick to tithe right away.  That's great.

I also observed that the girls who come from less active families didn't really know much about tithing, and tended to be quieter about the subject.  I saw one girl "Mary", sheepishly moved some of the "allowance money" she received in the game from some other category to "tithing" as a more vocal active girl was talking about paying tithing.  Mary doesn't come from an active family-- in fact, she didn't even know where the church bathroom is.  I in NO way judge her for not paying tithing- she hasn't been taught.  Especially tithing on gifts- which is totally not required.  I also went out of my way to include her and make sure she wasn't embarrassed or feel bad in any way.  It was a learning opportunity and I could totally teach without making her feel bad.  

You sound like a really great teacher.

[Sunday21]

@Jane_Doe. Great teaching tool! Sounds fun too!

[zil]

@Grunt, there's another practical reason for tracking the money (and providing a report of your total donations): income tax deduction.  Now you can go get it online, but a few years ago, it was printed by the ward financial clerk, stuffed in an envelope and given to you on Sunday early in the year.   My experience agrees with others' here - the bishop doesn't appear to look at the dollar amounts - it's not the important part of the interview.

Edited September 7, 2017 by zil

[anatess2]

On 9/6/2017 at 11:49 AM, Grunt said:

I'm unsure how the Bishop could know the answer to most of those questions without being judgmental and assuming to know your heart.

Some more info for your ponderings...

The Bishop is called to be the Judge of Israel.  That's his main calling.  So, being "judgmental" is actually a big part of his job.  I put it in quotes because judgmental has a sort of negative connotation.  A Bishop exercises righteous judgment.  He is given the keys for discerning whether a person under his priesthood authority is keeping his covenants or not.  Understanding a person's heart through the guidance of the Holy Ghost makes him an effective bishop especially when it comes to his active role in bringing the lost sheep back to the fold through repentance and also in his role in protecting the church from the wolf.

When a bishop is called, he is presented to the ward to be sustained.  If you do not trust this bishop to hold this priesthood authority responsibly, then you would raise your hand in dissent to the calling and further steps will have to be made to either resolve the dissenter's issue or to call another person to be bishop.

 

 

[Vort]

On 9/6/2017 at 8:26 AM, estradling75 said:

For example if the Bishop knows a person has not paid any tithing for 5 years and that person declares they are a full tithe payer the bishop is fully authorized to ask follow up questions to figure out why the person has reached that conclusion and accept or correct and necessary.

I would add that the bishop's counselors, when authorized to interview someone for a temple recommend, can also ask follow-up questions and explore tithing and other such issues as they feel appropriate. They generally do not offer counsel to the member (they counsel the bishop, not the ward), and they will very quickly punt to the bishop at any hint of sexual impropriety or need in that area. But they can, indeed are expected to, ascertain the true tithing status of those members they interview for a temple recommend. Those who believe that any member in any situation is authorized to declare himself/herself a full tithe payer and the bishop or counselor is obligated to accept that statement at face value with no further exploration are deceived. Such is not the case.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Vort

[JohnsonJones]

Some of this thread is news to me.  I actually DO pay tithing on gift money.  I have no idea why someone would not.  If it is increase, you pay tithing on it.

Now, if you are in your parents house, that money has already been tithed.

But if I receive a gift from my relatives (they are definitely not LDS) and since I'm not in their household, even if they were, I pay tithing on it.

Am I to understand from this thread that there are adults that do not pay tithing on gifts?

I can understand that, especially on expensive gifts...but what if the gift was money...would you pay tithing on that or not?

We aren't supposed to go beyond our bounds, and tithing is a deeply personal decision in many cases.  As long as someone says that they are a full tithe payer, I'll accept that.  However, I am surprised at the indications that people say they don't pay tithing on gifts...or more specifically, gifts that are money.  Would not a monetary gift count as a sort of income?

Once again, if in an interview, I'd never go into that much depth unless someone really wanted to go into it and brought it up themselves, but my counsel probably would be, if it was in the form of money, I personally, would tithe on it (but even then, wouldn't hold them up to that standard, but let them decide for themselves on what they consider a full tithe payer unless it was blatant they were not doing so).

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Some of this thread is news to me.  I actually DO pay tithing on gift money.  I have no idea why someone would not.  If it is increase, you pay tithing on it.

When you are a child living in your parents' home, do you pay tithing on the food, shelter, bedding, clothing, toys, utilities, and other necessities they give you? It is certainly increase for you. Why don't you tithe it? Answer: Because your parents tithe the income, then use the 90% to provide for themselves and others.

Is there some magical age at which that no longer applies? When I'm 90 and living off my children, will I need to tithe the rent payments they make for me or the food they bring me?

When I have paid tithing and, with the 90% left, buy a gift for my brother, does he need to tithe the value of the gift? After all, it's increase for him, right? Or maybe not?

What if I just give him the money instead? Does that make a difference?

Tithing is not obvious. There are obvious attempts by the Pharisaical to dodge as much tithing as possible and treat it as a tax, searching for exemptions. And there is the (vastly less popular) other extreme of those who think they should give essentially their entire paycheck to the Church by tithing every separate transaction. But these are the ways of man, not of God.

Pay a generous tithe. Give a true tenth to the Lord. Do not try to hide or minimize your increase. Err on the side of generosity. Then, once that's done, go about your life, and don't sweat every tiny detail. Yes, my children have "double-tithed" their allowances, since I paid them allowance out of my already-tithed money. Am I going to worry about that? Heck no! It's all too tiny a price to pay to get my children used to paying tithing and allow them to experience the joy of following God's commandments -- even if it does begin in a sort of artificial environment.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

When you are a child living in your parents' home, do you pay tithing on the food, shelter, bedding, clothing, toys, utilities, and other necessities they give you? It is certainly increase for you. Why don't you tithe it? Answer: Because your parents tithe the income, then use the 90% to provide for themselves and others.

Is there some magical age at which that no longer applies? When I'm 90 and living off my children, will I need to tithe the rent payments they make for me or the food they bring me?

When I have paid tithing and, with the 90% left, buy a gift for my brother, does he need to tithe the value of the gift? After all, it's increase for him, right? Or maybe not?

What if I just give him the money instead? Does that make a difference?

Tithing is not obvious. There are obvious attempts by the Pharisaical to dodge as much tithing as possible and treat it as a tax, searching for exemptions. And there is the (vastly less popular) other extreme of those who think they should give essentially their entire paycheck to the Church by tithing every separate transaction. But these are the ways of man, not of God.

Pay a generous tithe. Give a true tenth to the Lord. Do not try to hide or minimize your increase. Err on the side of generosity. Then, once that's done, go about your life, and don't sweat every tiny detail. Yes, my children have "double-tithed" their allowances, since I paid them allowance out of my already-tithed money. Am I going to worry about that? Heck no! It's all too tiny a price to pay to get my children used to paying tithing and allow them to experience the joy of following God's commandments -- even if it does begin in a sort of artificial environment.

I'm not sure equating moneys from an allowance to food and clothing really adds up. It's a bit nit-picky, but... The paying of an allowance is a transfer of ownership at a different level, to my thinking, than the room and board realities of living in someone's home who has paid the tithing already. I know...debatable.  It does seem a sadly lost opportunity to not teach a child to pay tithing on allowances though.

It is interesting though. we do think on tithing solely through money (which is a big reason my mind goes as it does in this regard I think). As for myself, for example, if my mother gives me a DVD or some such for Christmas I do not pay tithing on the cost of that DVD (er....blu-ray or what-have-you). If my mother gives me a $25 check for my birthday (as she always does) I always pay tithing on it.

Hmm. Food for thought.

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

When you are a child living in your parents' home, do you pay tithing on the food, shelter, bedding, clothing, toys, utilities, and other necessities they give you? It is certainly increase for you. Why don't you tithe it? Answer: Because your parents tithe the income, then use the 90% to provide for themselves and others.

Is there some magical age at which that no longer applies? When I'm 90 and living off my children, will I need to tithe the rent payments they make for me or the food they bring me?

When I have paid tithing and, with the 90% left, buy a gift for my brother, does he need to tithe the value of the gift? After all, it's increase for him, right? Or maybe not?

What if I just give him the money instead? Does that make a difference?

Tithing is not obvious. There are obvious attempts by the Pharisaical to dodge as much tithing as possible and treat it as a tax, searching for exemptions. And there is the (vastly less popular) other extreme of those who think they should give essentially their entire paycheck to the Church by tithing every separate transaction. But these are the ways of man, not of God.

Pay a generous tithe. Give a true tenth to the Lord. Do not try to hide or minimize your increase. Err on the side of generosity. Then, once that's done, go about your life, and don't sweat every tiny detail. Yes, my children have "double-tithed" their allowances, since I paid them allowance out of my already-tithed money. Am I going to worry about that? Heck no! It's all too tiny a price to pay to get my children used to paying tithing and allow them to experience the joy of following God's commandments -- even if it does begin in a sort of artificial environment.

In my opinion...There is a difference between a child living in your household and when you are not.

It goes to the point of the HOUSEHOLD.  When you are a child, your father is the head of your household and the patriarch of the family.  Your parents lead the household and they pay tithing FOR the HOUSEHOLD.  Thus, what you receive within the household, has already been tithed upon.

When you leave your father and mother, you are independent and in your own household.  You are no longer part of theirs.  Hence, any increase of your household...IMO...should be tithed upon.   You are no longer in THEIR household, and hence a separate entity, even if you are still part of the same family.

That said, I tell my kids to tithe on any money they get, from me or others, but it is not necessary as I see it.  It's a tool to teach them. 

[Vort]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

In my opinion...There is a difference between a child living in your household and when you are not.

It goes to the point of the HOUSEHOLD.  When you are a child, your father is the head of your household and the patriarch of the family.  Your parents lead the household and they pay tithing FOR the HOUSEHOLD.  Thus, what you receive within the household, has already been tithed upon.

When you leave your father and mother, you are independent and in your own household.  You are no longer part of theirs.  Hence, any increase of your household...IMO...should be tithed upon.   You are no longer in THEIR household, and hence a separate entity, even if you are still part of the same family.

That said, I tell my kids to tithe on any money they get, from me or others, but it is not necessary as I see it.  It's a tool to teach them. 

So, then, my 90-year-old self ought to expect to tithe the value of the rent and food that my children provide me?