Hallway Mormons

[NeuroTypical]

Vort aptly demonstrates the other side, in the eternal clash of cultures these two types bring to each other in church.  The Lord's pavilion is wide enough to cover both.  When genuine attempts to unselfishly love and understand one another are made, good things happen.  But if not, y'all just go to your respective corners and keep your mouths closed and your thoughts to yourselves.  We're all tryin' to worship here. 

That's BOTH of you!  [Makes gesture of pointing to eyes, then pointing at both of them.]

Edited February 19, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Vort aptly demonstrates the other side, in the eternal clash of cultures these two types bring to each other in church.  The Lord's pavilion is wide enough to cover both.  When genuine attempts to unselfishly love and understand one another are made, good things happen.  But if not, y'all just go to your respective corners and keep your mouths closed and your thoughts to yourselves.  We're all tryin' to worship here. 

I think the two sides could learn from one another (and that your two posts demonstrate this well).

The person who lives in the midst of nightmares could probably benefit from learning to enjoy daydreams.

The person who only knows daydreams might need to reach out an inviting hand to the one who's trapped in a nightmare.

I actually think that person living in nightmares is experiencing the same problem described in @Carborendum's thread about return missionaries:

They need help learning that "normal" is OK, that not everything in life has to be oriented around life & death -level decisions, or that just because it doesn't involve jail time or rehab doesn't mean it's not important.

[askandanswer]

On 17/02/2018 at 8:07 AM, Traveler said:

 

Hmmmmmm - most likely the reason someone showed up at church in the first place is because someone (perhaps the spirit) nagged them.  No one should ever think that suggestions to cooperate with a teacher is ill advised.  I was taught and so taught my children – to respect, honor and cooperate with teachers – both at school and church.  I realize that there can be rare exceptions – but in my entire life experience I have not seen it.

But I am very interested why you feel it important to find reason to not support, cooperate or sustain a teacher at church?

 

The Traveler

I would hope that a teacher would be able to share their message in such a way that takes into account all the needs and circumstances of those in their class, including their seating preferences.

[lostinwater]

21 minutes ago, zil said:

I think the two sides could learn from one another (and that your two posts demonstrate this well).

+1

God has work to do in different places.  Personally, i think the acceptability of differences extends beyond which side of the classroom door one finds themselves on (ie which religion you are in or exactly what group of people you attempt to interact with in a Christlike way).  Regardless, no need to look down our noses at one another. 

And i don't think everyone in the hallway is sitting there smugly daring a mormon member to practice compassion by coming to be with them and judging them if they don't.  i think for many people in the hallway, the very last thing they want is to have someone come out and talk to them.  One of the most painful things for a very self-aware person is to look into someone else's eyes and see confusion and awkwardness - and to know that their presence is what has caused it.  And no, i'm not suggesting or demanding that anyone should change.  

If invisibility cloaks existed, i think foyers and hallways would look much emptier than they do on many Sundays.  But, alas and alack.....

[Guest MormonGator]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

and @LiterateParakeet

G-d has openly said that he chastens those he loves.  If Jesus was to attend Sunday School as the teacher and ask that all gather closer and move towards the front – what would we think of those that refused – or called his suggestion, nagging?   In the song of “A Poor Wear Fairing Man of Grief” we sing about how what we do to the least of those called of G-d; we do to G-d himself.   

My father would speak directly to me in such a manner if I ever came home and complained about any teacher (in school or church).  I was raised to hold teachers in higher regard than millionaires.  I was only broken from this respect of teachers by a select cadre of professors at college.  I realize that from time to time a particular teacher may over step the spirit of their calling but it is my opinion that asking the class to gather is not something I believe as abuse of station or something that should be criticized. 

Something else I learned from my father – which is why I made a reference to millionaires.  If people would be willing to move closer if offered $5,000 but would criticize a humble teacher struggling with a calling asking such a thing – I would – as a matter of respect and things I hold dear –support the humble teacher – even over the wealthy seeking respect and corporation with their money.

 

The Traveler

Yeah, I had no idea sitting in the back was considered taboo in any way, shape or form. Some people are just more conformable back there and I'm too stupid to understand why it would be a problem. 

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yeah, I had no idea sitting in the back was considered taboo in any way, shape or form. Some people are just more conformable back there and I'm too stupid to understand why it would be a problem. 

Consider the teacher's viewpoint. What is the teacher tasked to establish? He (she) is supposed to build Zion. What does a classroom in Zion look like? It is filled with brothers (or sisters, or both) who are sharing their own experiences and understandings. His guidance is Doctrine and Covenants 88:122: "Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege." So the teacher wants a group where everyone has his or her say, everyone learns from everyone else, and everyone is edified. This is his (her) calling.

Now consider the reality of what the teacher finds. As he stands in front of the class (group, quorum, whatever form it may take), he finds pretty much everyone sitting as far away from him as possible. He tries to assign prayers, or asks for volunteers, but everyone stares blankly at him or just looks down. When he starts presenting his lesson -- silence. Questions fall dead in the air. The teacher tries asking participatory questions, but no one wants to answer -- or at best, it's the Same Three People who keep talking D&C 88:122 is dead.

Meanwhile, the hallways are crowded with youth and adults wandering around, chewing the fat, laughing and conversing -- and not about scriptural teachings.

There is a time for visiting and laughing with friends. And there is a time to be in class, listening, pondering, asking questions, hearing answers, considering, and helping to build Zion by doing what one has raised his hand in promise to do -- to sustain the teacher in his/her calling.

I have no intention of calling down condemnation on the hall wanderers. It's not my place nor desire. But let's not gape in astonishment at anyone who makes the obvious suggestion that people probably ought not be wandering the hallways when there are classes being sponsored for their own benefit.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Consider the teacher's viewpoint. What is the teacher tasked to establish? He (she) is supposed to build Zion. What does a classroom in Zion look like? It is filled with brothers (or sisters, or both) who are sharing their own experiences and understandings. His guidance is Doctrine and Covenants 88:122: "Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege." So the teacher wants a group where everyone has his or her say, everyone learns from everyone else, and everyone is edified. This is his (her) calling.

Now consider the reality of what the teacher finds. As he stands in front of the class (group, quorum, whatever form it may take), he finds pretty much everyone sitting as far away from him as possible. He tries to assign prayers, or asks for volunteers, but everyone stares blankly at him or just looks down. When he starts presenting his lesson -- silence. Questions fall dead in the air. The teacher tries asking participatory questions, but no one wants to answer -- or at best, it's the Same Three People who keep talking D&C 88:122 is dead.

 

You are talking to the wrong guy @Vort. When I went I used to sit in the back-but I was literally the first one to talk, communicate, pray, jump up and down, sing, start campfires, build space shuttles for NASA and participate in every way, shape or  form. So to me, I just don't get it and no, that's not an insult to the teacher, you, @Traveler, or Father Christmas. 

 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You are talking to the wrong guy @Vort. When I went I used to sit in the back-but I was literally the first one to talk, communicate, pray, jump up and down, sing, start campfires, build space shuttles for NASA and participate in every way, shape or  form. So to me, I just don't get it and no, that's not an insult to the teacher, you, @Traveler, or Father Christmas. 

MG, I'm not making any veiled application to you or anyone else. Really, I'm just addressing the question of why anyone would be bothered by such things as seating choices or hall walking. (Admittedly, you asked only about sitting in back, but I used your question as a springboard to the wider topic.)

[NeuroTypical]

Young Women ditching class got so bad in my ward a few years back, and everyone had tried so many things that didn't work, the bishop had to take some pretty drastic measures. He changed the end of Sacrament meeting so after the closing prayer, he dismissed the YW one class at a time.  The entire congregation would watch them walk out of the chapel, and pre-positioned teachers and whatnot would watch them walk to the classes, where their teachers would count them and then close the door.  Most of the YW looked either vaguely embarassed or bored, about one in six YW radiated death and hatred and scorn to one extent or another as they'd walk down the aisle. 

This bishop was not known for a heavy hand at anything.  This was the most extreme thing I'd ever seen him do.  I was never in a position to be made aware of the relevant details behind his rather heavy handed decision, but I'm fairly confident he had really really good reason to do it. 

I wouldn't suggest we do anything like that as a rule. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

MG, I'm not making any veiled application to you or anyone else. Really, I'm just addressing the question of why anyone would be bothered by such things as seating choices or hall walking. (Admittedly, you asked only about sitting in back, but I used your question as a springboard to the wider topic.)

Check your private messages. 

[zil]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I wouldn't suggest we do anything like that as a rule. 

Oh, come on, it sounds really fun, and very organized - kind of like boarding an airplane...   You wouldn't have to worry about those oblivious people who block the hallway unnecessarily and ignore the traffic jam they create (even after many "ahem"s and "excuse me"s).

Meanwhile, I'm very fortunate that in my ward (where I've been for 18.5 years¹), people are used to teachers who lead discussions rather than lecture.  We have no problem getting a variety of participation.  (Prayers are harder, but not discussion - and we mostly stay on topic.)  Perhaps this has fed into my feeling that your location in the classroom really doesn't matter - your participation does.  (NOTE: There are obvious caveats, if there are three of you in a room that will hold 300, each of you taking a separate corner really isn't going to work that well - but I've never seen anything close to that theoretical arrangement become reality.)

¹I'm getting really antsy.  (Prior to this, I'd never lived anywhere longer than 10 years.)  I feel like I need to move, but I don't know where to go.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I would hope that a teacher would be able to share their message in such a way that takes into account all the needs and circumstances of those in their class, including their seating preferences.

So if they don't - you think they should be released?

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

50 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yeah, I had no idea sitting in the back was considered taboo in any way, shape or form. Some people are just more conformable back there and I'm too stupid to understand why it would be a problem. 

It is not about where someone sits or any other preference - it is about cooperating with a request by the person called and set apart to instruct the Sunday School class - the person you raised your hand and promised G-d that you would sustain.  I see this as similar to something seemingly stupid - like washing 7 times in the dirty Jourdan River to cure leprosy.    So, the request did not come by the Prophet - just a lowly servant.

I am trying to indicate why I would move with the slightest hint to move – and also to ask a question – why would someone refuse to cooperate with someone called by G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

6 hours ago, zil said:

Traveler, you seem to be under the mistaken assumption that those of us who would excuse those who prefer to sit on the fringes do so out of disrespect for the teacher.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  We do it because:

1) We know for absolute certain, some of them are dealing with problems which would be made unbearable by packing into the midst of others, shoulder-to-shoulder.  (This is not denying that some act out of simple preference rather than need; nor should acknowledgement of this preference be used to ignore the reality that some need that bit of separation.)

2) Equally certain is that we aren't always sure who needs that separation and who simply prefers it.  (Because no one is obligated to explain their nightmarish past to their Sunday teachers / leaders.)

I prefer to err on the side of compassion for those who need it rather than causing them so much anxiety that they leave and never return.  (Speaking here as a teacher and RSP who declines to insist that people sit anywhere other than where they choose.)

I am entirely certain that Christ would heal those who need it before asking them to do something that their past trauma prevents them from doing.  Unfortunately, I don't have that ability, so I let them sit where they are comfortable, knowing that this will yield the best results for them, and that as a teacher, the results for me are irrelevant - it's about them.

I think you should go read this hymn again.  Did the POV character ask the man of grief to pack in close to the other beggars before helping him?  No, he dealt with that man one-on-one, as he found him.  Did he criticize the beggar for not sitting in the front row every week?  Or for getting himself into his grief-ridden state?  Not that I recall.

Again, you seem to think we're catering to a lazy or disrespectful attitude.  We think we're having mercy on the one who could barely force herself into the building and onto the last row.  You seem to think it's 100% always about willingness.  We recognize that for some, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - they might want to be able to move up, they'd likely wish for your "$5,000 seat-change bonus", but they can't bring themselves to do it.  Now I suppose your financial incentive would separate the unwilling from the unable, but at what cost?  Would it not drive the unable from the room in tears?  Would it not increase their shame and make them less likely to ever return, thus worsening their condition through further isolation?  And for what?  (That last one isn't really a rhetorical question.  I cannot for the life of me figure out what the benefit is of packing everyone shoulder-to-shoulder.)

Finally, I'll note that between these types of beings exists the one who will move as asked, but for whom there is a constant hum of discomfort keeping them from hearing all that's said and/or from feeling the Spirit (as much as they might have if able to listen without needless distraction).  Again, is the consequence worth it?

So while it's OK to invite and encourage, to insist is, IMO, a mistake (perhaps not in every instance, but unless you're certain it's not a mistake, it could well be a mistake).  Perhaps this is a change from your youth.  Perhaps it is reflective of a different part of the world than the one you live in.  Or perhaps we're getting more of the traumatized people through the door than we were before.  I don't know.  But when I'm in charge of the classroom, everyone gets to sit where they want, and that's not going to change.

 

I can offer as many reasons why a teacher may be facing just as many fears or more that anyone else.  And who knows but that they may be so inspired to save someone from being hit by a meteor.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I would hope that a teacher would be able to share their message in such a way that takes into account all the needs and circumstances of those in their class, including their seating preferences.

 

This is also my assumption.  If someone, so called by G-d - ask something of you or others, that there are blessing for responding and a loss of blessing for ignoring.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

I can offer as many reasons why a teacher may be facing just as many fears or more that anyone else.  And who knows but that they may be so inspired to save someone from being hit by a meteor.

The Traveler

If the teacher suffered from the kind of thing I'm talking about, they wouldn't be capable of getting up in front of the class and speaking.  They'd barely be capable of walking out their own front door.  Not sure why you are having such a hard time accepting that such people exist and that it's not a personal failing on their part, but whatever.

Meanwhile, if you ever learn that I'm about to be hit by a meteor, please do me a favor and tell me to hold still.

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

If the teacher suffered from the kind of thing I'm talking about, they wouldn't be capable of getting up in front of the class and speaking.  They'd barely be capable of walking out their own front door.  Not sure why you are having such a hard time accepting that such people exist and that it's not a personal failing on their part, but whatever.

Meanwhile, if you ever learn that I'm about to be hit by a meteor, please do me a favor and tell me to hold still.

 

Think of a request to move up in a class room as similar (less than as hard) to board the Ark with Noah and many fearful animals.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

This is me hoping for a meteor.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

This is me hoping for a meteor.

Speaking of comets/meteors, have you read Lucifer's Hammer? It's very long and little Pg-13 in parts but it's a fantastic read if you like dystopian and science fiction. 

 

[Guest]

You do realize if a meteor actually hit the church, everyone in the building would likely die instantaneously from the energy release and moving to the front of the class wouldn't actually save you?  Just saying.

Edited February 19, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[zil]

4 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

You do realize if a meteor actually hit the church, everyone in the building would likely die instantaneously from the energy release and moving to the front of the class wouldn't actually save you?  Just saying.

And if I have to die from a meteor strike, I prefer that it be instantaneous, not slow and painful, so I'll just stand still while everyone else is running for the fringes...  (I have a similar thought about airplanes - put me on the wing where me and the fuel can go up together in a big old ball of flames - plus I like watching the flaps and whatnot.)

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Oh, come on, it sounds really fun, and very organized - kind of like boarding an airplane...   You wouldn't have to worry about those oblivious people who block the hallway unnecessarily and ignore the traffic jam they create (even after many "ahem"s and "excuse me"s).

Meanwhile, I'm very fortunate that in my ward (where I've been for 18.5 years¹), people are used to teachers who lead discussions rather than lecture.  We have no problem getting a variety of participation.  (Prayers are harder, but not discussion - and we mostly stay on topic.)  Perhaps this has fed into my feeling that your location in the classroom really doesn't matter - your participation do

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, zil said:

¹I'm getting really antsy.  (Prior to this, I'd never lived anywhere longer than 10 years.)  I feel like I need to move, but I don't know where to go.

Please, nowhere in the southern hemisphere

[zil]

Just now, askandanswer said:

Please, nowhere in the southern hemisphere

Highly unlikely I would leave the US.  And hanging upside down for too long gives me a headache, so...

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

You do realize if a meteor actually hit the church, everyone in the building would likely die instantaneously from the energy release and moving to the front of the class wouldn't actually save you?  Just saying.

Really?

I was under the impression dozens of meteors (or is that hundreds) hit the earth every day.  A majority burn up in the atmosphere, but those that do not are rather small.  They might cause a hole in the roof, or kill someone if they strike them in the head, but normally they don't kill massive amounts of people when they hit the earth.  It is a rare instance for even one person to die from a meteor hit.

I don't think I've heard of a lot of people to die in a meteor hit thus far.  Is this a thing?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Really?

I was under the impression dozens of meteors (or is that hundreds) hit the earth every day.  A majority burn up in the atmosphere, but those that do not are rather small.  They might cause a hole in the roof, or kill someone if they strike them in the head, but normally they don't kill massive amounts of people when they hit the earth.  It is a rare instance for even one person to die from a meteor hit.

I don't think I've heard of a lot of people to die in a meteor hit thus far.  Is this a thing?

Apparently not.

There is one confirmed story of a person being hit by a meteor, back in 1954, and she survived:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/02/130220-russia-meteorite-ann-hodges-science-space-hit/