Do Mormons Worship Jesus...Do You?

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not being original with this topic. It's right on the front page of Mormonhub:  https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/belief/mormons-worship-heavenly-father-christ/

My takeaway was that LDS do worship Jesus, but caution must be taken not to equate the Son with the Father (i.e. the Oneness, or 'Jesus Only,' heresy). What say you? I do worship him. Our songs are full of adoration for Jesus. Revelation 4-5 give an awesome description of angelic worship of Jesus. Of course, the Father commands the angels do do so in Hebrews 1. Perhaps my non-hesitation is because I am rock-solid on the difference between God the Father and God the Son. IMHO LDS are equally, if not more, clear on this. Trinitarians believe there is a difference in personhood. The LDS Godhead has Father and Son physically separate. Still, based on the article, there seem to be some who would restrict worship to the Father. Thoughts?

[Vort]

The easy answer is: Yes, we worship Jesus. The more careful answer is: Yes, we worship Jesus, but be mindful what you mean by "worship".

The plan of salvation is the Father's, even though Jesus was the chosen Redeemer. Jesus came to do the Father's work. He, Jesus, clearly stated that he does not his own will, but the will of the Father who sent him. For example:

• When we pray, we pray to the Father. This is as Jesus himself taught. There are exceptions to this rule, as when Joseph Smith prayed to Jehovah at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, but such exceptions are vanishingly rare.
• When we make covenants, we make those covenants with the Father. This includes the baptismal/sacramental covenants. I know of no exceptions to this rule.
• As a matter of culture, we teach our children to sing such things as "My Heavenly Father Loves Me". We generally do not sing, as do many Christian sects, about how "Jesus loves me". (Though he does want me for a Sunbeam.) Obviously, we recognize and value the Savior's love for his sheep, but we see it as an extension of the love of the Father.

But in recognizing this general rule, we must also admit that it is mostly a semantic difference. Jesus' love IS God's love. For that matter, Jesus IS God. Jesus is even appropriately called "the Father". Latter-day Saints are generally careful to distinguish between the Father and the Son, but in many cases we must grant that it is a distinction without an obvious difference.

In Elder McConkie's words:

WE WORSHIP THE FATHER AND HIM ONLY AND NO ONE ELSE.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

Our revelations say that the Father “is infinite and eternal,” that he created “man, male and female,”

And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. [D&C 20:17–19]

Jesus said:

True worshippers shall [note that this is mandatory] worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth. [JST John 4:25–26]

There is no other way, no other approved system of worship.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm not being original with this topic. It's right on the front page of Mormonhub:  https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/belief/mormons-worship-heavenly-father-christ/

My takeaway was that LDS do worship Jesus, but caution must be taken not to equate the Son with the Father (i.e. the Oneness, or 'Jesus Only,' heresy). What say you? I do worship him. Our songs are full of adoration for Jesus. Revelation 4-5 give an awesome description of angelic worship of Jesus. Of course, the Father commands the angels do do so in Hebrews 1. Perhaps my non-hesitation is because I am rock-solid on the difference between God the Father and God the Son. IMHO LDS are equally, if not more, clear on this. Trinitarians believe there is a difference in personhood. The LDS Godhead has Father and Son physically separate. Still, based on the article, there seem to be some who would restrict worship to the Father. Thoughts?

We worship Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ, and we worship Jesus. The two expressions of reverence may be demonstrated differently since we see them as two separate Persons, but Their worship is not mutually exclusive. The Holy Ghost is the medium through which our worship is conveyed.

Do you worship the Father in addition to worshiping Jesus?

[prisonchaplain]

Yes. My church came into being out of the Pentecostal revivals of the early 1900s. The major area of contention was between adherence to the Trinity vs. the belief that only Jesus was God, manifest as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My church stayed with the traditional view, so we worship the Father--and I would agree, primarily.

As an aside, the main way to tell if you are interacting with someone who believes in the oneness doctrine is if s/he insists on baptism in Jesus' name only. Trinitarian teaching is different from LDS, but we do agree that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and are distinct, and that the Father is the prime object of our worship.

Edited July 18, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yes. My church came into being out of the Pentecostal revivals of the early 1900s. The major area of contention was between adherence to the Trinity vs. the belief that only Jesus was God, manifest as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My church stayed with the traditional view, so we worship the Father--and I would agree, primarily.

As an aside, the main way to tell if you are interacting with someone who believes in the oneness doctrine is if s/he insists on worship in Jesus' name only. Trinitarian teaching is different from LDS, but we do agree that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and are distinct, and that the Father is the prime object of our worship.

I'm not sure it makes much difference. We both worship an almighty being we call "God". We are one in purpose and cause. Does any detail really then matter?

Edited July 18, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Trinitarian teaching is different from LDS, but we do agree that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and are distinct, and that the Father is the prime object of our worship.

Agreed.  

As to your original question:

I follow the Father's commands, because I love Him and He is my Father.  But in the same stroke, I am also following the Son's commands, because they are the exact same commands (the Father and Son are unified as one).

I honor the the Father's, because I love Him and He is my Father.  But in the same stroke, I am also honoring the Son, because they have the exact same honor, being unified as one.

I praise the Father, but in the same stroke I am also praising the Son, because they have the same unified glory.

etc etc.

 

Yes, the Father is the prime object of my worship and all of it's subcomponents (honoring, prasing, following, etc), but because the Father and the Son are so unified in the same stroke this all also applies to the Son.  

[Iggy]

April 1977 Conference talk by Bruce R. McConkie  linky to talk - written & video

The Father’s name is Elohim;

Jehovah is his Son.

Above all Gods they stand supreme,

And rule the universe.

Jehovah is the Holy One,

By whom redemption comes;

His gospel is the word of life;

He is our living Lord.

The Holy Spirit witness bears;

Our soul the message hears—

That Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,

Are man’s Eternal Gods.

[prisonchaplain]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm not sure it makes much difference. We both worship an almighty being we call "God". We are one in purpose and cause. Does any detail really then matter?

It must matter or we'd all be much more united than we are. And yet, in daily spiritual life it mostly looks the same. We do well to understand the nature of the God we worship, so I'd file this type of discussion under, "important but not urgent." Those who've studied time management will recognize that as the section we tend to neglect.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Yes. My church came into being out of the Pentecostal revivals of the early 1900s. The major area of contention was between adherence to the Trinity vs. the belief that only Jesus was God, manifest as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. My church stayed with the traditional view, so we worship the Father--and I would agree, primarily.

As an aside, the main way to tell if you are interacting with someone who believes in the oneness doctrine is if s/he insists on worship in Jesus' name only. Trinitarian teaching is different from LDS, but we do agree that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and are distinct, and that the Father is the prime object of our worship.

 

Perhaps we should define worship.  If we sing about something we like – is that worship?  Perhaps a kind of worship.  If re break down the pieces of worship – we will discover we worship a great many things – at least to some degree.  But not all worship is equal.  Hopefully this is obvious to the reader.

Even for a believer in Christ there are different “levels” of worship – indeed we are not all the same or have the same devotions.  Paul speaks of charity (what we Mormons call the pure love of Christ) as the highest form of worship.  Paul clearly outlines many forms of worship popular at the time (many of which are still popular today) but he speaks of charity as being greater.  Jesus speaks of such a high form of love as being or becoming “one”.  The concept in scripture is very similar to becoming one by the covenant of marriage.  Sometimes this is spoken of as becoming of one heart and mind – even of one flesh.  Becoming “one” is related to loving G-d with all our heart, might mind and strength.  The symbolism is beyond just the spiritual to include the physical – even though we speak of the worship of G-d as a spiritual exercise it does require complete physical compliance both in the individual devotion as well as physical submission to the sacred ordinances of the Gospel of Christ.

My point is that those that deny a oneness with G-d to include the physical also deny that we are in the physical image and likeness of G-d and that to be “one” is not exclusive of physical sacrifice – even as Jesus was willing to physically sacrifice to be one with the Father.  And being one means being like.  Thus the greatest form of worship is emulation – and without emulation of who we worship our worship is incomplete and imperfect which is unacceptable for those that are saints willing to worship G-d in all things.

 

The Traveler

[Jane_Doe]

13 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

It must matter or we'd all be much more united than we are. And yet, in daily spiritual life it mostly looks the same. We do well to understand the nature of the God we worship, so I'd file this type of discussion under, "important but not urgent." Those who've studied time management will recognize that as the section we tend to neglect.

Honestly I don't find "the nature of God" LDS vs Trinity discussion to be that high of an important topic at all.  I find many other theological topics of in Christiandom to be much more impactful on how we view ourselves, God, and salvation (like calvinism vs arminianism, for example).  

[prisonchaplain]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Honestly I don't find "the nature of God" LDS vs Trinity discussion to be that high of an important topic at all.  I find many other theological topics of in Christiandom to be much more impactful on how we view ourselves, God, and salvation (like calvinism vs arminianism, for example).  

From a practical point of view you are right. Yet, who is God? Having a general idea may work most days. Likewise, just knowing I like being around my wife works on most days of my marriage. Still, I should know the nature of the God I worship, just as I should know the nature of the wife I am one with.

Edited July 18, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[prisonchaplain]

@Traveler IMHO when we ask "What is worship?" in these types of conversations, we are really asking, "Who gets big-G God adoration?" Anything else is fandom. One Christian author even wrote a book entitled "Not a Fan." He argued that God has many fans, but few who "get in the game" by true devotion to Him who alone is worthy to be praised.

Edited July 18, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Traveler]

2 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@Traveler IMHO when we ask "What is worship?" in these types of conversations, we are really asking, "Who gets big-G God adoration?" Anything else is fandom. One Christian author even wrote a book entitled "Not a Fan." He argued that God has many fans, but few who "get in the game" by true devotion to Him who alone is worthy to be praised.

I sort of agree - but the term fan has been seriously diluted - especially by sports and those that enjoy watching sports.  Technically the term fan is short for fanatic.  And I must be honest - I am a fanatic, by any definition, about my worship and relationship with G-d.  As I believe you to be too.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

It must matter or we'd all be much more united than we are. And yet, in daily spiritual life it mostly looks the same. We do well to understand the nature of the God we worship, so I'd file this type of discussion under, "important but not urgent." Those who've studied time management will recognize that as the section we tend to neglect.

I mean- what does it really matter? It appears we all want to serve others, be kind, charitable, etc. So what then does it matter who we worship if we both call Him God Almighty?

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I sort of agree - but the term fan has been seriously diluted - especially by sports and those that enjoy watching sports.  Technically the term fan is short for fanatic.  And I must be honest - I am a fanatic, by any definition, about my worship and relationship with G-d.  As I believe you to be too.

 

The Traveler

Love this! "NOT A FAN, BUT A FANATIC!" What a great bumper sticker.

"Hey, what does your bumper sticker mean?"

"Oh, it's about my relationship with God, let me tell you about it . . . "

[prisonchaplain]

20 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I mean- what does it really matter? It appears we all want to serve others, be kind, charitable, etc. So what then does it matter who we worship if we both call Him God Almighty?

IF I were LDS I'd say it's the difference between the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. I'm not, so I'll just argue that if I don't really care about whom I worship--only that I'm doing the act of worship right--then maybe I'm ultimately making myself God.

[zil]

33 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

FANATIC

Not to be confused with an attic fan.

[Jersey Boy]

13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm not being original with this topic. It's right on the front page of Mormonhub:  https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/belief/mormons-worship-heavenly-father-christ/

My takeaway was that LDS do worship Jesus, but caution must be taken not to equate the Son with the Father (i.e. the Oneness, or 'Jesus Only,' heresy). What say you? I do worship him. Our songs are full of adoration for Jesus. Revelation 4-5 give an awesome description of angelic worship of Jesus. Of course, the Father commands the angels do do so in Hebrews 1. Perhaps my non-hesitation is because I am rock-solid on the difference between God the Father and God the Son. IMHO LDS are equally, if not more, clear on this. Trinitarians believe there is a difference in personhood. The LDS Godhead has Father and Son physically separate. Still, based on the article, there seem to be some who would restrict worship to the Father. Thoughts?

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25)

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

IF I were LDS I'd say it's the difference between the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. I'm not, so I'll just argue that if I don't really care about whom I worship--only that I'm doing the act of worship right--then maybe I'm ultimately making myself God.

By their fruits ye shall know them. That's all that matters. 

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

(i.e. the Oneness, or...

Not sure what you mean by this.  But I'm sure you know Mormons believe in One God and that Jesus is God.

Edited July 18, 2018 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Not sure what you mean by this.  But I'm sure you know Mormons believe in One God and that Jesus is God.

You know about the Trinity:  God as 3 in 1. The "Jesus Only" or "Oneness" folks are modalists. They believe God is 1 in 3:  That Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit--that it's all just Jesus. Of course, the LDS Godhead goes the other direction, saying that God is 3 and 1.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, zil said:

Not to be confused with an attic fan.

Will you stop already - it is too weird finding a kindred spirit that is so odd at the other end of the "what I am" spectrum - including the gender thing.  It is like looking at the world upside and backwards and realizing that symmetry makes what I thought was so different - the same.   

Grief - Since I have over 100 first cozens I may be encountering family I did not know about, again.

 

The Traveler

Edited July 19, 2018 by Traveler

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is like looking at the world upside and backwards

Um, I hate to break it to you, but the world is in its proper orientation.  You're the one who's upside down and backwards.  It's entirely possible you're actually a reflection in a funhouse mirror and not the person looking at the mirror.

[zil]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

a kindred spirit that is so odd

PS: I don't know about that "kindred" business, but if it makes you feel better, I'll only be odd until next year, when I'll turn even.

[Traveler]

9 hours ago, zil said:

Um, I hate to break it to you, but the world is in its proper orientation.  You're the one who's upside down and backwards.  It's entirely possible you're actually a reflection in a funhouse mirror and not the person looking at the mirror.

As an expert in artificial intelligence - I was evaluating you in relation to everything else.

 

The Traveler