BYU as a church school?

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, Tyme said:

I know some people who would rather their kids go to BYU than Harvard. I'll never understand that.

I know you won't.   As a parent, I do.  Spiritual growth is more important than scholastic education.  At BYU you get both.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Grunt

[let’s roll]

Just now, Carborendum said:

You've had parents tell you "the same thing".  I doubt that.  If you give me the actual words they were using, it will be much more clear.  But when speaking in general descriptions, you can make anything sound like anything.

Respectfully, I’m not sure there’s a benefit to continuing a conversation with someone who finds no credibility in my statements.  I’m not sure what you’d consider magic words that would convince you this unhealthy attitude exists.  I have no doubt it does.  A few more examples. 

I can think of at least two occasions in interviews where parents wept about their child not getting into the Y and characterizing that as a “failure” on their part as parents.

I was both bribed and threatened by parents as a Seminary teacher in connection with Seminary graduation issues. In every instance the threat or bribe included statements about the perceived importance of graduation in getting admitted to the Y and the unmistakable perceived need for their child to be admitted.  If you could witness even one of those emotionally charged encounters, any doubt you have about the existence of this unhealthy attitude would disappear.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Tyme said:

I know some people who would rather their kids go to BYU than Harvard. I'll never understand that.

How is this difficult to understand? I met my wife at BYU. The BYU experience very literally changed my life, the way I view things. What can compare to that?

I likely would have been more successful from a worldly perspective had I gone to Harvard, who actually recruited me out of high school and offered scholarships and other tuition help, but I was much too immature and naive to understand what an opportunity was being presented to me. I had my sites set on UWash, and changed to BYU only at the last moment and on request of my parents. And, as I said, the experience changed my life. If I could go back, knowing what I know now, understanding the value and superior education offered by the Harvard route, I would not change a thing. BYU is not only where I found my wife; it's where I found my real testimony of the gospel and my direction in life. However big a failure I have been at worldly pursuits, I would not trade the beauty I learned to perceive in Provo for the much greater worldly success and self-actualization that I might well have found in Cambridge.

[let’s roll]

11 minutes ago, Tyme said:

I know some people who would rather their kids go to BYU than Harvard. I'll never understand that.

I’m with you on that.  If the child was raised in Boston, I’d see merit in going to the Y to experience LDS culture (good and bad), but if they grew up anywhere else, Harvard would be a great choice.

I regret not going to the University of Chicago or Stanford for my law degree.  My seat at the Y would have been better utilized by a non-member.

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

State schools cost roughly double what BYU does. If BYU raised the tuition to be on par with state schools the school wouldn't need tithing dollars.

An interesting point. I don't know what state schools you compared to, but I don't see this as universally true, though I'm sure it is true in some cases. Comparing to Utah universities, BYU's LDS tuition is about average for state run colleges and universities (including community colleges) and about the same as the cheapest 4 year Utah state run universities (Dixie State is ~10% cheaper than BYU, Weber State and Utah Valley are pretty close to the same as BYU). Non-LDS tuition seems to be similarly positioned relative to other school's out of state tuition. It seems to me that BYU's tuition is well positioned to compete with other school's in the region. Maybe room to expand tuition (if you think it should be more in line with say the University of Utah in terms of tuition). I don't know how the Board of Trustees at BYU views this, and it would ultimately be up to them to make recommendations and such, but they seem inclined to run low to middle of the pack compared to other Utah state post-secondary institutions.

source I used for this comparison: https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/compare/tables/?state=UT

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Respectfully, I’m not sure there’s a benefit to continuing a conversation with someone who finds no credibility in my statements.  I’m not sure what you’d consider magic words that would convince you this unhealthy attitude exists.  I have no doubt it does.  A few more examples. 

I can think of at least two occasions in interviews where parents wept about their child not getting into the Y and characterizing that as a “failure” on their part as parents.

I was both bribed and threatened by parents as a Seminary teacher in connection with Seminary graduation issues. In every instance the threat or bribe included statements about the perceived importance of graduation in getting admitted to the Y and the unmistakable perceived need for their child to be admitted.  If you could witness even one of those emotionally charged encounters, any doubt you have about the existence of this unhealthy attitude would disappear.

That will do.

It wasn't that I was questioning your honesty.  I was questioning the interpretation based on zero specifics.  You repeatedly gave "characterizations" rather than any specifics.  That makes me wonder about any statement from anyone.  Then when I asked for specifics, you twice refused.  So, I had even MORE doubt.

But now you've given something that is not a characterization (at least I hope not) but something rather concrete.  In this last post, you gave both a good example and a bad example.  Let me explain what I was getting at.

Bad example:

"parents wept... a failure on their part as parents."

Good example:

"I was both bribed and threatened by parents..."

******************

Why the first is a bad example is that the "failure" could easily be interpreted as the child not being properly prepared or possibly worthy to go.  If so, I certainly see why a parent could feel they failed in raising their child to be worthy of the ecclesiastical endorsement.

The second is a good example because both bribery and threats are difficult to explain away in any other way other than they were bribes and threats.  So, the description of specifics is very important in conveying a message.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

How is this difficult to understand? I met my wife at BYU. The BYU experience very literally changed my life, the way I view things. What can compare to that?

I likely would have been more successful from a worldly perspective had I gone to Harvard, who actually recruited me out of high school and offered scholarships and other tuition help, but I was much too immature and naive to understand what an opportunity was being presented to me. I had my sites set on UWash, and changed to BYU only at the last moment and on request of my parents. And, as I said, the experience changed my life. If I could go back, knowing what I know now, understanding the value and superior education offered by the Harvard route, I would not change a thing. BYU is not only where I found my wife; it's where I found my real testimony of the gospel and my direction in life. However big a failure I have been at worldly pursuits, I would not trade the beauty I learned to perceive in Provo for the much greater worldly success and self-actualization that I might well have found in Cambridge.

Another thing that is missing is that Harvard has gone the way of the world and forgotten its roots.  A Harvard education may still have a good reputation.  But with the SJW society taking over, I'm not sure what good that would do for my kids.  I can get that at the local community college.  Why would I pay 10 times more to get it from a school across the country.

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I regret not going to the University of Chicago or Stanford for my law degree.  My seat at the Y would have been better utilized by a non-member.

Did you have that opportunity? I think that in law, more than any other discipline, the school you attend can make all the difference in your career. If you graduate from Yale, your path to success is virtually assured. Same with Harvard and Stanford, or really any of the top ten schools, maybe top fifteen. I didn't know any of this until this year. Funny how perspectives can change so dramatically based on nothing more than getting a little education in an area you previously knew nothing about.

[LadyGunnar]

18 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Respectfully, I’m not sure there’s a benefit to continuing a conversation with someone who finds no credibility in my statements.  I’m not sure what you’d consider magic words that would convince you this unhealthy attitude exists.  I have no doubt it does.  A few more examples. 

I can think of at least two occasions in interviews where parents wept about their child not getting into the Y and characterizing that as a “failure” on their part as parents.

I was both bribed and threatened by parents as a Seminary teacher in connection with Seminary graduation issues. In every instance the threat or bribe included statements about the perceived importance of graduation in getting admitted to the Y and the unmistakable perceived need for their child to be admitted.  If you could witness even one of those emotionally charged encounters, any doubt you have about the existence of this unhealthy attitude would disappear.

I had friends crying because they failed to get into BYU. It meant that they failed the family.  I heard many of the youth talk about it. The pressure to go to the churches college.  It's part of something that made me know that I would never go to BYU. 

I am so thankful my parents didn't do that to me. They said to go where we felt like we should go.

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I had friends crying because they failed to get into BYU. It meant that they failed the family.  I heard many of the youth talk about it. The pressure to go to the churches college.  It's part of something that made me know that I would never go to BYU. 

I am so thankful my parents didn't do that to me. They said to go where we felt like we should go.

I've seen people cry because they didn't get into OSU and several other schools.  It doesn't have anything to do with the church, really.  It's about having a goal and not meeting it.

[Just_A_Guy]

FWIW Just_A_Girl’s maternal kin (and there are MANY of them) are solid Aggies fans; and her going to BYU was seen as something of an act of apostasy in its own right.

Some people are just plain weird about college.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I had friends crying because they failed to get into BYU. It meant that they failed the family.  I heard many of the youth talk about it. The pressure to go to the churches college.  It's part of something that made me know that I would never go to BYU. 

I am so thankful my parents didn't do that to me. They said to go where we felt like we should go.

My wife and I have made no secret about our love for BYU and our hopes that our children can receive that experience. At the same time, we have made it clear that if our children don't want to go to BYU, they shouldn't. BYU is absolutely awesome beyond words for those who want to be there. For those who don't want to be there, it can be the opposite. The fact that most BYU students want very much to be there is part of what makes the atmosphere in Provo so wonderful. But as we've told our children, if you don't want to go to BYU, that doesn't mean you're a bad person. Many very good people don't want to go to BYU. Be a good person, live up to your covenants, seek after God and his will, and go to school where you think is best. (But if you go to BYU, Daddy and Mama will come visit and will hike the Y with you.)

[LadyGunnar]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I've seen people cry because they didn't get into OSU and several other schools.  It doesn't have anything to do with the church, really.  It's about having a goal and not meeting it.

Kids were told that BYU was the only school to get into. That there was no point in going to any other college. This is the church's school  and the only one worth going to. 

This is coming from a small town in Oregon.  Parents didn't like their kids going to regular colleges. Many of those kids fell away from the church because of the attitudes of their parents. 

[LadyGunnar]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

My wife and I have made no secret about our love for BYU and our hopes that our children can receive that experience. At the same time, we have made it clear that if our children don't want to go to BYU, they shouldn't. BYU is absolutely awesome beyond words for those who want to be there. For those who don't want to be there, it can be the opposite. The fact that most BYU students want very much to be there is part of what makes the atmosphere in Provo so wonderful. But as we've told our children, if you don't want to go to BYU, that doesn't mean you're a bad person. Many very good people don't want to go to BYU. Be a good person, live up to your covenants, seek after God and his will, and go to school where you think is best. (But if you go to BYU, Daddy and Mama will come visit and will hike the Y with you.)

That is how is should be. My Dh would love if our kids went to the University of Utah. That's his school. But he lets them know that they should go where they want to go. 

My son is wanting to go to the air force academy.  It's far from what I thought he would be doing. I will support him in his choice of schools.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LadyGunnar said:

Kids were told that BYU was the only school to get into. That there was no point in going to any other college. This is the church's school  and the only one worth going to. 

This is coming from a small town in Oregon.  Parents didn't like their kids going to regular colleges. Many of those kids fell away from the church because of the attitudes of their parents. 

Then that shouldn't have happened.  But the same can be said of parents' talk of any other school.  It could be said if a child doesn't go into med school or law school.  We've heard of those parents too.

What I can say is that I never met anyone while I was there who felt "pressured" into going there.  Everyone I knew WANTED to be there.  They were THANKFUL to be there.  And they were happy.  So, understand why it is difficult to accept the idea that this is an epidemic, when I'd never met ANYone at BYU who felt this way.

Another aspect of this is that the world has changed since I went to school.

1. How many other schools have the high moral standards exemplified at BYU?
2. How many have such low tuition rates for such a quality education?

These are highly desirable qualities in a school.  I can imagine being disappointed that my kids would not have these advantages in their education.  It doesn't mean that I'd disown my kids if they didn't make it in.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

My wife and I have made no secret about our love for BYU and our hopes that our children can receive that experience. At the same time, we have made it clear that if our children don't want to go to BYU, they shouldn't. BYU is absolutely awesome beyond words for those who want to be there. For those who don't want to be there, it can be the opposite. The fact that most BYU students want very much to be there is part of what makes the atmosphere in Provo so wonderful. But as we've told our children, if you don't want to go to BYU, that doesn't mean you're a bad person. Many very good people don't want to go to BYU. Be a good person, live up to your covenants, seek after God and his will, and go to school where you think is best. (But if you go to BYU, Daddy and Mama will come visit and will hike the Y with you.)

100% agreed.

You should always go to a school which is going to match you well.   Some people match BYU really well, and have a great time there.  I, seeing how Provo was not a good match for me, actually turned down admission and a scholarship there to go to Idaho instead.  Which turned out to also be a really bad match for me (personality and career goals-wise), and I instead left for a state school, and things went much better there.  Conversely, I know people who left that same state school to attended a BYU and loved the BYU experience.

You got to have the right match when picking out a college/program.

[let’s roll]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That will do.

It wasn't that I was questioning your honesty.  I was questioning the interpretation based on zero specifics.  You repeatedly gave "characterizations" rather than any specifics.  That makes me wonder about any statement from anyone.  Then when I asked for specifics, you twice refused.  So, I had even MORE doubt.

But now you've given something that is not a characterization (at least I hope not) but something rather concrete.  In this last post, you gave both a good example and a bad example.  Let me explain what I was getting at.

Bad example:

"parents wept... a failure on their part as parents."

Good example:

"I was both bribed and threatened by parents..."

******************

Why the first is a bad example is that the "failure" could easily be interpreted as the child not being properly prepared or possibly worthy to go.  If so, I certainly see why a parent could feel they failed in raising their child to be worthy of the ecclesiastical endorsement.

The second is a good example because both bribery and threats are difficult to explain away in any other way other than they were bribes and threats.  So, the description of specifics is very important in conveying a message.

Helpful.  Thanks.  To clean up my bad example, the kids had the endorsement, had great grades and above average ACTscores, in short were within the range of accepted students, but were not accepted.  Instead of rejoicing in what a wonderful child they had and how well they done in helping them become so wonderful...tears and regret (and not just for a moment)...it’s akin to the regret parents express (and youth sometimes feel) when the youth is called to a mission in the States...happily that one tends not to linger as long. 😊

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Helpful.  Thanks.  To clean up my bad example, the kids had the endorsement, had great grades and above average ACTscores, in short were within the range of accepted students, but were not accepted.  Instead of rejoicing in what a wonderful child they had and how well they done in helping them become so wonderful...tears and regret (and not just for a moment)...it’s akin to the regret parents express (and youth sometimes feel) when the youth is called to a mission in the States...happily that one tends not to linger as long. 😊

Yes, and upon reflection, I guess I understand that some parents like this exist.  But the experiences I've had tell me that this is the exception rather than the norm.  But you are describing this as the norm. 

I don't know.  Different experiences... Too bad there aren't statistics on these things.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Guest

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I've seen people cry because they didn't get into OSU and several other schools.  It doesn't have anything to do with the church, really.  It's about having a goal and not meeting it.

Please tell me you mean Ohio State and not Oregon State.  I can’t imagine anyone crying because they weren’t going to Corvallis. 😀. Just some TIC college smack from a kid who grew up in Eugene. 🦆🦆🦆

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Did you have that opportunity? I think that in law, more than any other discipline, the school you attend can make all the difference in your career. If you graduate from Yale, your path to success is virtually assured. Same with Harvard and Stanford, or really any of the top ten schools, maybe top fifteen. I didn't know any of this until this year. Funny how perspectives can change so dramatically based on nothing more than getting a little education in an area you previously knew nothing about.

Accepted at Chicago and UCLA, was wait listed at Stanford when I committed to the Y.

The regret isn’t based on my career.  I did well at the Y and have worked for great DC and NYC firms as well as multiple Fortune 500 law departments.

It’s more about the law school experience itself.  The experience at the Y was very good, but also very predictable and comfortable.  Chicago would likely have been far less predictable and more uncomfortable...important components of a good education IMHO.

On the flip side giving my seat (and scholarship) to a non-member or a member from another country would have given them the chance for that less predictable, more uncomfortable law school experience, and that would have blessed them.

That said, I’ve had colleagues from Harvard, Yale and Stanford et al and that has allowed me to benefit from some less predictable and more uncomfortable experiences with them as we became friends...and hopefully I’ve repped the Y in an appropriate fashion.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, zil said:

I did that - except I stopped at learning to rake.  My brother actually picks locks - I don't really have the patience.  Unfortunately, a ballpoint is no use for this kind of "keying" - yet another thing it's no good for.

I just asked my son how a ball point pen would work.  He said that it serves neither a the pick or the torsion wrench.  It has no way of making a hook.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I just asked my son how a ball point pen would work.  He said that it serves neither a the pick or the torsion wrench.  It has no way of making a hook.

Exactly.  Further proof that ballpoints are useless.

You can, however, pick a Master lock with a zip tie.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Exactly.  Further proof that ballpoints are useless.

You can, however, pick a Master lock with a zip tie.

Sometimes I wonder what you actually do with your free time.  Giving @mirkwood a run for his money, I bet.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sometimes I wonder what you actually do with your free time.  Giving @mirkwood a run for his money, I bet.

Before I discovered fantasy, I wanted to write espionage, thus, learning lock picking was required.  Decades later, my brother decided to try it out.  Master locks are notorious for being easy to pick:

 

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Sometimes I wonder what you actually do with your free time.  Giving @mirkwood a run for his money, I bet.

I use bolt cutters.