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LatterDSaint

Kissing and making out before marriage? My friend told me that I should accept his standard on this

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I have had this conversation with my friend before where he brought up kissing sessions with someone you are interested in dating. This is the second time we have had a long drawn out conversation about it. Unfortunately I fell for his bait when he bought it up the second time and we had another discussion about it. He referenced the strength of youth with regards to passionate kissing and how because kissing can bring up feelings of sexual feelings, I should avoid it like he does. I explained that although it upsets/bothers him we just have different standards to him regarding this and that as long as the girl I am seeing 1. wants to do it 2. we respect each others boundaries 3. doesnt escalate past making out, then I have no problem with kissing and making out with another person. I guess since I have only read the strength of youth handbook earlier this year through him, I should understand why he is so adamant that I should accept his standard. Its true that I enjoy kissing girls but I guess more importantly, it makes me feel more secure about a potentially growing relationship. Can I do without making out with a girl, of course, but I think of the 4 pillars to a Christ centered relationship and the physical is just as important as the spiritual, intellectual and emotional pillars. 

I didnt necessarily mind the conversation that we had. I enjoy and greatly appreciate talking about all sorts of things with him.  I think what bothers me is that I was fine with us disagreeing on it but he wasnt. I think what makes me disregard most of what he says is the fact that I would only seriously consider adopting this standard if the person I am seriously interested in held that same standard, after all I am not homosexual. I think what's also a little strange is that he is interested in the type of women who are the most likely to engage in the same behaviors. This doesn't make him a hypocrite but to me it does seem somewhat dismissive of reality in a way. What are all your thoughts. Like I said, I would likely only adopt this stance if the person im seriously interested in holds the same standard, so im unlikely to be convinced by anyone in the comments. But the discussion is open :)

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5 hours ago, LatterDSaint said:

I have had this conversation with my friend before where he brought up kissing sessions with someone you are interested in dating. This is the second time we have had a long drawn out conversation about it. Unfortunately I fell for his bait when he bought it up the second time and we had another discussion about it. He referenced the strength of youth with regards to passionate kissing and how because kissing can bring up feelings of sexual feelings, I should avoid it like he does. I explained that although it upsets/bothers him we just have different standards to him regarding this and that as long as the girl I am seeing 1. wants to do it 2. we respect each others boundaries 3. doesnt escalate past making out, then I have no problem with kissing and making out with another person. I guess since I have only read the strength of youth handbook earlier this year through him, I should understand why he is so adamant that I should accept his standard. Its true that I enjoy kissing girls but I guess more importantly, it makes me feel more secure about a potentially growing relationship. Can I do without making out with a girl, of course, but I think of the 4 pillars to a Christ centered relationship and the physical is just as important as the spiritual, intellectual and emotional pillars. 

I didnt necessarily mind the conversation that we had. I enjoy and greatly appreciate talking about all sorts of things with him.  I think what bothers me is that I was fine with us disagreeing on it but he wasnt. I think what makes me disregard most of what he says is the fact that I would only seriously consider adopting this standard if the person I am seriously interested in held that same standard, after all I am not homosexual. I think what's also a little strange is that he is interested in the type of women who are the most likely to engage in the same behaviors. This doesn't make him a hypocrite but to me it does seem somewhat dismissive of reality in a way. What are all your thoughts. Like I said, I would likely only adopt this stance if the person im seriously interested in holds the same standard, so im unlikely to be convinced by anyone in the comments. But the discussion is open :)

Here is my opinion 

“Never do anything that could lead to sexual transgression. Treat others with respect, not as objects used to satisfy lustful and selfish desires. Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing”

- For the Strength of Youth

 

“The For the Strength of Youth pamphlet contains standards that, when followed carefully, will bring rich blessings and help us stay on the covenant path. Although it was written for the benefit of the youth, its standards do not expire when we leave the Young Men and Young Women programs. They apply to each of us all the time. A review of these standards may prompt other ways we can be more careful in our gospel living.”

- Becky Craven, General Conference 2019

Edited by Fether

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If you are doing something to arouse sexual feelings in yourself or a person who’s not you spouse, you’ll find out why the Lord puts a giant warning “don’t go here!” sign.   So people just want to touch the stove themselves...

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9 hours ago, LatterDSaint said:

I have had this conversation with my friend before where he brought up kissing sessions with someone you are interested in dating. This is the second time we have had a long drawn out conversation about it. Unfortunately I fell for his bait when he bought it up the second time and we had another discussion about it. He referenced the strength of youth with regards to passionate kissing and how because kissing can bring up feelings of sexual feelings, I should avoid it like he does. I explained that although it upsets/bothers him we just have different standards to him regarding this and that as long as the girl I am seeing 1. wants to do it 2. we respect each others boundaries 3. doesnt escalate past making out, then I have no problem with kissing and making out with another person. I guess since I have only read the strength of youth handbook earlier this year through him, I should understand why he is so adamant that I should accept his standard. Its true that I enjoy kissing girls but I guess more importantly, it makes me feel more secure about a potentially growing relationship. Can I do without making out with a girl, of course, but I think of the 4 pillars to a Christ centered relationship and the physical is just as important as the spiritual, intellectual and emotional pillars. 

I didnt necessarily mind the conversation that we had. I enjoy and greatly appreciate talking about all sorts of things with him.  I think what bothers me is that I was fine with us disagreeing on it but he wasnt. I think what makes me disregard most of what he says is the fact that I would only seriously consider adopting this standard if the person I am seriously interested in held that same standard, after all I am not homosexual. I think what's also a little strange is that he is interested in the type of women who are the most likely to engage in the same behaviors. This doesn't make him a hypocrite but to me it does seem somewhat dismissive of reality in a way. What are all your thoughts. Like I said, I would likely only adopt this stance if the person im seriously interested in holds the same standard, so im unlikely to be convinced by anyone in the comments. But the discussion is open :)

The part I’ve bolded, is the part that caught my attention.

How many girls have you had “kissing sessions” with?

Of those girls, how many of the relationships turned out to be “secure”?

Answer:  unless you are now married, the answer is zero.  You didn’t have a secure relationship with any of those girls.  If you had, the relationship wouldn’t have ended.

So now, you’ve got a bunch of failed relationships where either you, the girl involved—or both of you—thought it was serious and committed, and it really wasn’t.  And so the breakup becomes, not an amicable parting of two good people who on further investigation simply turned out to be incompatible; but a betrayal, a reminder of unmet expectations and unkept promises.  All of that leaves a mark, psychologically and spiritually.  It impacts the way we bond, and the quality of future relationships. 

God doesn’t want us to play around with people’s emotions like that just for the sake of a cheap semi-sexual thrill.  And we aren’t really doing ourselves any favors with that kind of thing, either.

I’m not saying we should never kiss anyone we don’t plan to marry.  But I am suggesting that physicality cannot be cavalierly transactionalized without, to some degree, stunting our ability to form and enjoy and maintain meaningful relationships in the future.  Fully restoring that ability—viz, repentance—is not an easy or a pleasant or a short process.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The part I’ve bolded, is the part that caught my attention.

How many girls have you had “kissing sessions” with?

Of those girls, how many of the relationships turned out to be “secure”?

Answer:  unless you are now married, the answer is zero.  You didn’t have a secure relationship with any of those girls.  If you had, the relationship wouldn’t have ended.

So now, you’ve got a bunch of failed relationships where either you, the girl involved—or both of you—thought it was serious and committed, and it really wasn’t.  And so the breakup becomes, not an amicable parting of two good people who on further investigation simply turned out to be incompatible; but a betrayal, a reminder of unmet expectations and unkept promises.  All of that leaves a mark, psychologically and spiritually.  It impacts the way we bond, and the quality of future relationships. 

God doesn’t want us to play around with people’s emotions like that just for the sake of a cheap semi-sexual thrill.  And we aren’t really doing ourselves any favors with that kind of thing, either.

I’m not saying we should never kiss anyone we don’t plan to marry.  But I am suggesting that physicality cannot be cavalierly transactionalized without, to some degree, stunting our ability to form and enjoy and maintain meaningful relationships in the future.  Fully restoring that ability—viz, repentance—is not an easy or a pleasant or a short process.

Thank you for your response. 

I admit that I am still ignorant to beliefs others have about romantic relationships within the church. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you are assuming that I am kissing multiple women at the same time. But even if I am mistaken, I acknowledge your points. 

"How many girls have you had “kissing sessions” with?"

At the risk of judgement, 3 in total

Its true that my attitude towards kissing in the past has result in a failure of sorts as it didnt progress to a committed relationship likely because I assumed this person shared the same perspective I had towards it. 

"Answer:  unless you are now married, the answer is zero.  You didn’t have a secure relationship with any of those girls."

I assume that if I were divorced the same would still be said no? After all marriages, even with everything involved are not necessarily always secure. 

 "You didn’t have a secure relationship with any of those girls"

Is the assumption here that I should be considering the relationship to be exclusively boyfriend and girlfriend before kissing happens? Personally I have never seen something like that before and can't even wrap my head around it likely because I personally do not consider someone I am attracted to a friend. I regret the use of "secure" as it appears to be confusing. I was not intending to suggest that the girls I have participated in kissing sessions with were each exclusive relationships. I meant to imply that I would feel more secure about their romantic interest for me through kissing.

"the girl involved—or both of you—thought it was serious and committed, and it really wasn’t."

It does appear that you are confused through fault of my own for not being clear. 

"God doesn’t want us to play around with people’s emotions like that just for the sake of a cheap semi-sexual thrill."

I do agree with this. Recently I should have done a better job incorporating this.

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Morals have changed since I was young.

There are two different types of kisses (actually more than that, but for simplicity, we'll say two different types).  (1) Chaste kisses given to show affection, such as that in greeting (at least in some nations in Europe, though normally not the US unless between family members) or to show family love, and (2) those that are given to show a deeper lust and romantic love.

Which type of kiss is being given.  If it is a quick chaste kiss to show welcome to a friend or family that is FAR different than a romantic kiss.

For those with high morals, the ideal used to be (when this old foggie was a young lad) that you didn't kiss anyone until you were either seriously dating or engaged at a minimum.  Normally if giving one a kiss it was a chaste kiss goodbye on the doorstep (so, one quick kiss, not a make out session) which would not offend parents if seen. 

Before my time, I hear that kissing was even scandalous, and holding hands was the proper way to do things (maybe) if dating.

In THAT LIGHT

The entire make out culture, or making out seems rather immoral to me, though I know I had a daughter or two that kissed boys more romantically than not when they were dating (and out of the house and in college...so no disapproving Dad could lecture them later). 

However, I'm from an prior generation and things seem to have changed in the world. 

Something to remember though...

The world's morals and views of things may change...but God is unchanging.

Edited by JohnsonJones
clarity

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On 9/16/2020 at 6:38 AM, Fether said:

Here is my opinion 

“Never do anything that could lead to sexual transgression. Treat others with respect, not as objects used to satisfy lustful and selfish desires. Before marriage, do not participate in passionate kissing”

- For the Strength of Youth

 

“The For the Strength of Youth pamphlet contains standards that, when followed carefully, will bring rich blessings and help us stay on the covenant path. Although it was written for the benefit of the youth, its standards do not expire when we leave the Young Men and Young Women programs. They apply to each of us all the time. A review of these standards may prompt other ways we can be more careful in our gospel living.”

- Becky Craven, General Conference 2019

Having had some experience with kissing gone beyond the FSOY standards, I decided I wouldn't participate in any kissing unless we're standing or wearing seat belts.  Satan and I know my weaknesses, and those are objective check points.  The only people I expect to adhere to those standards are myself and any guy kissing me. 

That being said, I feel a bit obligated to warn you about passionate kissing, which some call making out.  Once that line is crossed, and you feel that feeling, you want to feel it again.  It can be incredibly difficult to deny yourself once you've given in, even when you know it's the proper thing to do.  I'll get a little personal.  When I was in high school, I had some lie down, passionate make out sessions with my boyfriend.  When a divorced RM I was interested in dating after college suggest we cuddle, I was all for it.  Cuddling led to spooning, and I didn't know how to change course in the middle of it.  Before I saw him again, I called him and told him that, while I still liked him and enjoyed cuddling, I was not comfortable with spooning.  He said he understood, but it wasn't longer than a few months before it was happening again, because we both allowed it.  It's the old story of how to boil a frog. 

It also influenced the final lesson I gave to my YW as I moved out and they graduated high school (3 of them were going to BYU-I, and a fourth has joined them).  I had planned to teach them about the talk to "Stay in the Boat," not realizing they had that lesson the week before.  So we compared Joseph of Egypt and Potiphar's wife with Samson and Delilah.  I told them that if any guy ever got "Delilah-y" with them, to be like Joseph of Egypt and RUN!  One girl, probably trying to come off as her usual sarcastic self (although I suspect she had reasons), challenged me with, "What if he's on the boat?"  I looked her straight in the eye and said, "Push him out."

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I grew up in a non-Christian home, but attended a church with a conservative approach to these matters. Given today's non-marrying culture, I wonder if these "touch/kiss lightly" standards apply as stringently to those in their mid-20s as they do to the teens they were meant for? In broader culture many are not marrying until they are near-30. Some of these are converting. They are more mature, but we can all be carried away by lust. So...do the dating rules change as the youngsters become less young?

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12 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So...do the dating rules change as the youngsters become less young?

In our church, only some change.  Before marriage age, youth are encouraged to double date and not to date steady.  Those are the only ones that I can think of that change with age.

The kissing, touching, modesty, morals, etc. guidelines and rules don't change with age.

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Fair enough. I suspect that there is less caution and purity messaging in our college/career groups vs. our jr/sr high ones. So, perhaps more discretion is allowed. Still, modesty and opposition to fornication are counter-culture values we share.

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15 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I grew up in a non-Christian home, but attended a church with a conservative approach to these matters. Given today's non-marrying culture, I wonder if these "touch/kiss lightly" standards apply as stringently to those in their mid-20s as they do to the teens they were meant for? In broader culture many are not marrying until they are near-30. Some of these are converting. They are more mature, but we can all be carried away by lust. So...do the dating rules change as the youngsters become less young?

When you're a youth, dating exists to get to better know people and practice basics of relationships.  There's more focus on group events.  And of course, things should remain chaste.

When you're a adult, dating exists for the purpose of finding a spouse.  There's more focus on pair off events.  And of course, things should remain chaste until marriage. 

Nothing about the Lord's Law of Chasity is dependent on your age.    Living together / sex before are very serious perversions of the Lord's way.  Postponing marriage for selfish reasons of "I don't want to grow up!" is childish.  

 

Also a relevant side point since you mentioned conversion: if a person is interested in coming to Christ, taking upon His name, and joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, that person is excepted to try to follow Him.  It's the give your whole heart, mind, might, and soul thing.  Therefore, yes you are actually expected to strive to keep the Lord's Law of Chastity.  If you're cohabitating, then you're obviously not there yet.    So we're work on that before baptism and formally taking His name upon yourself.  

Edited by Jane_Doe

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I personally dislike the terms "Sex" and "Sexual".   It is my personal opinion that the covenant of marriage is a good and wonderful blessing.  That kissing and intimate relationships are a sacred trust and that living the Law of Chasity is good and righteous thing to do.  Everyone should prepare for marriage and keep sacred things sacred.  If discipline is a difficult thing - then engagements should be shortened.  But we should not think of intimate relationships as dirty, evil or corrupt - just something very sacred that should be disciplined as are all sacred and divine things.

 

The Traveler

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