gclayjr

What should we do to "Save the Constitution" that is definitely hanging by a thread?

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51 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

CV75,

Pretty good ideas. I don't totally see how that would stop the destruction of the Constitution, but it is a pretty good foundation to build on, and I guess God will inform us if he needs us to do anything more.

Thank You

George Clay

Many of the 20 points I listed are taught in the Ensign and in the MTC (along with the scriptures): 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 - 13, 15, 16,19. As far as Church duty goes, I would say D&C 101: 77-80 sums up our duty: protect our religious freedom by living our revealed doctrine and principle. 109: 54 suggests we honorably and nobly defend those principles (presumably in everyday living).

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28 minutes ago, Godless said:

This is the one that is keeping people like me up at night. A late 20th-Century philosopher once said, "Some of those who work forces are the same that burn crosses". There are small but very vocal and decently organized groups in our society who are preparing to literally go to war if Biden is sworn in next month. I'm not convinced that they will follow through, but if they do, will those sent to stop them actually make an honest attempt to do so?

I think this is why as citizens we need to let the three branches of government know, through our representatives, that we have high expectations and are keeping an eye on them. We really need to educate our children to appreciate their freedom and doing their civic duty.

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

This is the one that is keeping people like me up at night. A late 20th-Century philosopher once said, "Some of those who work forces are the same that burn crosses". There are small but very vocal and decently organized groups in our society who are preparing to literally go to war if Biden is sworn in next month. I'm not convinced that they will follow through, but if they do, will those sent to stop them actually make an honest attempt to do so?

Why should they?  The Democrats let murder and mayhem go on for a long time in Portland, Oregon and Seattle, Washington.  I bet all that happens with these people protesting Biden is they make a compound with supplies and long guns and tell the Federal government to stay away from them.

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5 hours ago, CV75 said:

10. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

f.thumb.jpg.d8bf298d5386ab740989b571aae83c52.jpg

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12 hours ago, gclayjr said:

Traveler,

I think we have even more in common than you realize. I retired 6 years ago from Rockwell Automation. As a man who worked with Automation, Robotics,  and Artificial Intelligence, you must be very aware of my company particularly in regards to PLCs (Allen-Bradley). Although that was not my specialty. I was involved in MES (Manufacturing Execution Systems) or track and trace.

Not only that, I graduated from HS in 1969, and took a slow trip through college. I joined the Marines in 1974 as Viet Nam was ending, so I also missed that war.

I have struggled with this thread  not  to get into wild speculation about the time and place and nature of the prophesied time when the constitution would "Hang by a thread" I want to  and try and focus on discovering what I should do as a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and a holder of the Melquisedec priesthood do  to do God's will should this happen in my lifetime.

I find so much on describing the anticipated event and so little on our duty let alone how to prepare. I know many years ago Cloeon Skousen gave some lectures in regards to this, but I still have questions.

The chaos of this election and the potential for destruction, has reinforced my desire to seek out to know. What should I,  George Clay,  do should it happen now?

 

George Clay

 

 

 

That's probably an easier question.

Remain righteous and worthy.  Keep your covenants.  Be a worthy Priesthood Holder and listen to the Brethren. 

Basically, be Righteous and follow the Lord.

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JohnsonJones,

 

I do like the Duke.

I guess more and more I am understanding that my role in this at this time is to 

Quote

Remain righteous and worthy.  Keep your covenants.  Be a worthy Priesthood Holder and listen to the Brethren. 

Basically, be Righteous and follow the Lord.

And I will have faith to  to wait, see and learn how this or any anything else asked of us will lead to 

 

Quote

and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. —Joseph Smith

 

Tis is a time for faith in the Lord and hope for clarity when the time comes

 

George Clay

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53 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sure what this picture is about in relation to #10 -- each vote is a fact to be protected from uncorrupted ballot counting?

This is the circumstance in Georgia where the individuals watching the votes received and being counted were told to go home and counting was done. When the people left, these individuals pulled out suitcases of ballots that were hidden under tables. They began counting these votes when everyone was gone. In one video of this, it appears one of these individuals are running the ballots multiple times. So, yes, corruption without consequence.

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28 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is the circumstance in Georgia where the individuals watching the votes received and being counted were told to go home and counting was done. When the people left, these individuals pulled out suitcases of ballots that were hidden under tables. They began counting these votes when everyone was gone. In one video of this, it appears one of these individuals are running the ballots multiple times. So, yes, corruption without consequence.

What can make it tougher is once the ballots are in the system, separating the false from the real is very hard (I've heard it's actually impossible, but I'm not one who counts the ballots). 

However, Georgia being one way or the other wouldn't change the election at this point...though they should use it as a point to be more vigilant in the run offs. 

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30 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is the circumstance in Georgia where the individuals watching the votes received and being counted were told to go home and counting was done. When the people left, these individuals pulled out suitcases of ballots that were hidden under tables. They began counting these votes when everyone was gone. In one video of this, it appears one of these individuals are running the ballots multiple times. So, yes, corruption without consequence.

I tried to look up whether this has become one of the lawsuits but I'm not finding it -- evidently the campaign is litigating complaints that can be better demonstrated or have more impact on protecting a clean voting system  and election outcome.

1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

What can make it tougher is once the ballots are in the system, separating the false from the real is very hard (I've heard it's actually impossible, but I'm not one who counts the ballots). 

However, Georgia being one way or the other wouldn't change the election at this point...though they should use it as a point to be more vigilant in the run offs. 

I think our election systems can afford the scrutiny and constant improvement and that this will protect our rights. I think part of saving the Constitution is using the systems to ensure our systems work at every level, from local to electoral.

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On 12/11/2020 at 8:05 PM, gclayjr said:

I am 69 years old, and over the years as things have happened to hurt our freedoms, I have wondered if we are living through when the Constitution would "hang by a thread" . I have always wondered what we as members of the church or Priesthood holders we should do to "save" the constitution when it does "hang by a thread"?

With this obviously corrupt election and the fact that while many brave Americans have come forward to demonstrate this,  nobody in charge is even willing to let the evidence be heard. I am also aware that there are many good Christians who have been praying to God to help save this country from a corrupt theft of our rights and to save the Constitution. With the recent rejection by the Supreme Court of the Texas case, virtually all visible paths to even giving a fair hearing to the evidence seems to have disappeared.

I don't see any "normal" path out of this. It is not that important whether BIden or Trump becomes president. What is important is whether our election system becomes so corrupt that the people can never vote out the corrupt or vote in someone who is reasonably honest and believes in letting people live a Christian life.

We have often been counselled to be loving and peaceful. and the 12th Article of faith indicates that we should submit even to corrupt evil totalitarian governments. So if my premise is  correct,  what is it that we as true believers in Jesus Christ, his restored Gospel, and the Constitution supposed to do to Save it?

I have never been able to find anything other than to stand for the truth and proclaim it. But I don't see how it applies here.

I have a true testimony of Jesus Christ and his restored Church, and know that in the end he will deliver us from evil. That doesn't mean that we may not have to live under oppression for awhile, like the people of Alma did, or the Citizens of Venezuela have been doing for over 20 years. I will willingly, if not necessarily joyfully,  submit to God's will. 

However what is that? What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

 

I would love some insight into this.

Thank you,

 

George Clay

 

First, Don't confuse saving the Constitution with saving the United States Government. The time of the Gentiles will pass just as every civilization has.

Second, I consider this a time for preparation. Food, Shelter and knowledge. Weapons are important to a small degree as well, but remember that the Lord said that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Many seem to think they need a lot of firepower to overthrow a tyranny, but what we need is wisdom. To this end, I am collecting books, actual paper books, that have historical, cultural and spiritual importance. I encourage everyone to do the same. I think a time of massive censorship and rewriting of history is at hand. We need to be able to teach the rising generation the truth.

Third, we must be mindful of our surroundings. We need to purify ourselves to the point where we can hear and understand the voice of the Spirit. We will need Him more than ever in the coming days.

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On 12/13/2020 at 11:29 AM, Godless said:

The sole purpose of the Supreme Court is to review, rule upon and enforce Constitutional issues, they have now neutered themselves and shown that they, and their rulings, are irrelevant and unenforceable.

Is this a comment on the Court or people's attitude towards the Court? Is it not the way the people treat the Court and its ruling, or their attitude towards the Court and its rulings that effectively neuters the Court and renders its rulings irrelevant? 

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On 12/12/2020 at 2:05 PM, gclayjr said:

What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

With 27 amendments, isn't it a little too late to start talking about saving the constitution? The first time it was changed/amended it ceased to be in its original condition and every change since then has only taken it further away from its original condition.

Might the elders of Israel have already failed in there opportunity to save the constitution when Utah voted to repeal Prohibition?

Edited by askandanswer

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17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Is this a comment on the Court or people's attitude towards the Court? Is it not the way the people treat the Court and its ruling, or their attitude towards the Court and its rulings that effectively neuters the Court and renders its rulings irrelevant? 

Is this directed at me or @Still_Small_Voice? I'm not sure how, but you seem to have quoted SSV's words under my name.

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Its a question for any who think the Supreme Court may have neutered itself and made its rulings irrelevant. I think if the Court and its rulings become irrelevant and unenforceable, that will be because of a decision by the people and their political rulers rather than as a result of any actions by the Court itself. Any thought or intention of making the court and its rulings irrelevant and unenforcable seems to be about the same thing as a thought or intention not to be ruled by law and reason. 

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On 12/14/2020 at 5:44 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

To this end, I am collecting books, actual paper books, that have historical, cultural and spiritual importance. I encourage everyone to do the same. I think a time of massive censorship and rewriting of history is at hand. We need to be able to teach the rising generation the truth.

Third, we must be mindful of our surroundings. We need to purify ourselves to the point where we can hear and understand the voice of the Spirit. We will need Him more than ever in the coming days.

I completely agree with this statement here.  Presently I am pondering on printing out some spiritual writings I have gathered over the years.  Right now they are only in digital format with multiple copies on hard drive and flash drives.  I do not like storing data on the Internet cloud because of your lack of control of it.

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On 12/12/2020 at 7:46 PM, Godless said:

This is the one that is keeping people like me up at night. A late 20th-Century philosopher once said, "Some of those who work forces are the same that burn crosses". There are small but very vocal and decently organized groups in our society who are preparing to literally go to war if Biden is sworn in next month. I'm not convinced that they will follow through, but if they do, will those sent to stop them actually make an honest attempt to do so?

This seems relevant.

 

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15 hours ago, Godless said:

Like the COVID-19 struggle there is antidotal evidence that surfaces from time to time and distracts from the core problems and possible solutions.  We have spent almost an entire year taking many "wrong" steps and not learning much from it.  I grew up in a wealthy family with a father that believed poverty produced better citizens than riches - so I was raised thinking I had to work to help support our "poor" family.  When I became an adult I discovered the wealth of my family.  My father owned millions in real estate.  I learned that investing in real estate is a matter of recognizing long term trends.  Evolution is a natural course of everything - everything changes.  The wisdom of life is recognizing the trends of change.

I have observed a trend of violence in our society.  This is not new but has always been a trend of those seeking power over others.  As a parent we can see violence take hold in children and quickly get out of hand.  It is common among children to gaslight violence - that is to blame the victims of our individual violence for the violence we inflict upon them.   It begins by blaming our anger on those we are angry with.   In a society of trending and escalating violence it is easy to find antidotal evidence to blame as initiating the violence.  But lets be honest.  It was not a Trump supporter that went to a event of democratic party members preparing for a softball game and opened up with violent gun fire.  It was a support of the democratic party.  In recent years there have been riots - burning down and destroying of struggling small business.  This has not been at the hands of supporters of "conservative" ideals.  This is not to deny that conservatives have not been involved in demonstrations but whenever there has been violence there have been supporters of the democratic party.  Perhaps antidotal evidence of a rogue conservative can be pointed to - but lets us be clear the trend among democratic supports is violence.  It is not hard to see which political party encourages and support violence.

The sad thing about violence is that it does work.  It is easer to force others to conform to an ideal and get quicker results with violence.  But the problem is that as violence becomes a way or the way of establishing what anyone thinks is justice - the result is less justice.  The most unjust way to solve social problems is war.  No one wins with violence and war.  But eventually those that loose a war will suffer the greatest loses. 

I am of the mind that the violence in our society will eventually bring about civil war.  Regardless of the outcome - our country (and justice) will be lost and the only possible good will be if some can find a way to a way to rebuild a society with justice without violence.

If there is voter fraud - and I know there is.  We must unite as a people to end it or our freedoms and liberties will be lost.  Voter fraud is not new - it is not new to the world and it is not new to the USA.  But the trend is towards increases in greater wide spread fraud.   I am sad and disappointed that the Supreme Court did not provide a forum to address voter fraud.  It would have been better to lay it all out and say what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in an election in this country.  Ignoring concerns or dismissing them without legal consideration will tear a society apart.  If this country is to become united we must communicate and address concerns - not to argue but to find solutions - and the possibility of solutions is fading - especially in light of violence and destruction of property (including statues in public places).  Voter fraud should not be a concern of an individual party - it should be the concern of every citizen devoted to justice, liberty and freedom.

It is my personal opinion that anyone caught and convicted of voter fraud should never be allowed to hold any public office or trust and should never be allowed to ever vote again in any election process.  And I believe voter fraud starts with the misuse of campaign funds - both in raising and distributing of campaign funds.  We think of voting as a right - but the reality it is the privilege of a people attempting to preserve freedoms and liberties all citizens of a society. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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18 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I completely agree with this statement here.  Presently I am pondering on printing out some spiritual writings I have gathered over the years.  Right now they are only in digital format with multiple copies on hard drive and flash drives.  I do not like storing data on the Internet cloud because of your lack of control of it.

About ten years ago Amazon removed all copies of 1984 from all Kindles, for a couple days at least. How ironic that it was the book of 1984. That got me alarmed regarding digital only storage of important items.

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On 12/11/2020 at 7:05 PM, gclayjr said:

I am 69 years old, and over the years as things have happened to hurt our freedoms, I have wondered if we are living through when the Constitution would "hang by a thread" . I have always wondered what we as members of the church or Priesthood holders we should do to "save" the constitution when it does "hang by a thread"?

With this obviously corrupt election and the fact that while many brave Americans have come forward to demonstrate this,  nobody in charge is even willing to let the evidence be heard. I am also aware that there are many good Christians who have been praying to God to help save this country from a corrupt theft of our rights and to save the Constitution. With the recent rejection by the Supreme Court of the Texas case, virtually all visible paths to even giving a fair hearing to the evidence seems to have disappeared.

I don't see any "normal" path out of this. It is not that important whether BIden or Trump becomes president. What is important is whether our election system becomes so corrupt that the people can never vote out the corrupt or vote in someone who is reasonably honest and believes in letting people live a Christian life.

We have often been counselled to be loving and peaceful. and the 12th Article of faith indicates that we should submit even to corrupt evil totalitarian governments. So if my premise is  correct,  what is it that we as true believers in Jesus Christ, his restored Gospel, and the Constitution supposed to do to Save it?

I have never been able to find anything other than to stand for the truth and proclaim it. But I don't see how it applies here.

I have a true testimony of Jesus Christ and his restored Church, and know that in the end he will deliver us from evil. That doesn't mean that we may not have to live under oppression for awhile, like the people of Alma did, or the Citizens of Venezuela have been doing for over 20 years. I will willingly, if not necessarily joyfully,  submit to God's will. 

However what is that? What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

 

I would love some insight into this.

Thank you,

 

George Clay

 

I personally don't think there's much we can do without a leader. We would need a Moroni to rally behind, otherwise; everything we'd be doing would be ineffectual. However, I don't think saving the constitution is something that we will consciously do. I'm not even certain that we'd know how the constitution was saved without some hindsight. Like, who are these elders who will save it? I envision that situation to be like the 7000 who would not bend the knee to Baal when the prophet lamented his isolation. They are there. They don't know who they are. There will be a lot of talkers, a lot of people quoting scripture out of ignorance, but these few people will simply be in the right place at the right time and will do the right thing. If the world knew who they were, the world could stop them.

That's the way I see it. The only thing we can do is rely on the promises of God that if we would obey his commandments, this nation would prosper. That's our job. We have to leave the rest of it to the Lord.

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On 12/11/2020 at 11:05 PM, gclayjr said:

I am 69 years old, and over the years as things have happened to hurt our freedoms, I have wondered if we are living through when the Constitution would "hang by a thread" . I have always wondered what we as members of the church or Priesthood holders we should do to "save" the constitution when it does "hang by a thread"?

With this obviously corrupt election and the fact that while many brave Americans have come forward to demonstrate this,  nobody in charge is even willing to let the evidence be heard. I am also aware that there are many good Christians who have been praying to God to help save this country from a corrupt theft of our rights and to save the Constitution. With the recent rejection by the Supreme Court of the Texas case, virtually all visible paths to even giving a fair hearing to the evidence seems to have disappeared.

I don't see any "normal" path out of this. It is not that important whether BIden or Trump becomes president. What is important is whether our election system becomes so corrupt that the people can never vote out the corrupt or vote in someone who is reasonably honest and believes in letting people live a Christian life.

We have often been counselled to be loving and peaceful. and the 12th Article of faith indicates that we should submit even to corrupt evil totalitarian governments. So if my premise is  correct,  what is it that we as true believers in Jesus Christ, his restored Gospel, and the Constitution supposed to do to Save it?

I have never been able to find anything other than to stand for the truth and proclaim it. But I don't see how it applies here.

I have a true testimony of Jesus Christ and his restored Church, and know that in the end he will deliver us from evil. That doesn't mean that we may not have to live under oppression for awhile, like the people of Alma did, or the Citizens of Venezuela have been doing for over 20 years. I will willingly, if not necessarily joyfully,  submit to God's will. 

However what is that? What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

 

I would love some insight into this.

Thank you,

 

George Clay

 

Although I am not yet a Latter day Saint I have read about that prophecy and I am of the belief that the Latter day Saint church has reached the critical mass where the positive aspect of Genesis chapter eleven verse six kicks into action.....

 

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

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On 12/12/2020 at 9:59 AM, romans8 said:

The one danger I see in the United States now is the threat of sedition by those millions (possibly) of
people who believe in the conspiracy of voter fraud.  If Americans abide by the decision of the Supreme
Court then the Constitution has been preserved.

Unless the Supreme Court has failed the Constitution and thus it is hanging by a thread.  🤔

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On 12/12/2020 at 4:37 PM, estradling75 said:

The Constitution say the States Choose the Electors for voting for President.  It is utterly silent on how they should choose them.

Clarification:  The Constitution specifically vests the authority to choose electors with the State Legislatures.  That is an important note.

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On 12/14/2020 at 8:55 PM, askandanswer said:

With 27 amendments, isn't it a little too late to start talking about saving the constitution?

Given the Constitution outlines the method for being amended, it does not follow that an amendment necessarily means the Constitution has not been preserved.

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8 hours ago, person0 said:

Unless the Supreme Court has failed the Constitution and thus it is hanging by a thread.  🤔

You should read a book called Supreme Power by Ted Stewart, which is a very interesting commentary on the evolution of the Supreme Court.

Supreme Power : 7 Pivotal Supreme Court Decisions that had a Major Impact on America

One thing I see that has changed and dramatically altered how the Supreme Court works is not the Supreme Court basically has been enabled to write laws.

A prime example...

With the Gay Marriage laws that have come into effect, previously before it had this power, the Supreme Court could have ruled laws AGAINST Gay Marriage as Unconstitutional, but it could not have mandated laws to be made to equalize them.  Thus, there would be a vacuum until such laws were made in accordance to recognize Gay Marriage on the same footing as Traditional Marriages.  Instead, the laws were conformed immediately to take into effect the Gay Marriage as the same exact thing in a legal sense (which is writing new laws) as other Marriages.  In my thoughts...of course.

Traditionally, when originally created, the Supreme Court had the ability to rule things unconstitutional and mandates in accordance, but not necessarily the ability to actually write and create laws without the approval of Congress being involved with the process...once again...in my feelings on the matter.

Ironically, even Judicial Review, which we take for granted today, was not inherently felt to be given until over a decade after the Constitution was written, but this review has expanded today into what we see where not only can it strike down, it can also mandate laws put in place to enforce such things (for example, striking down a school districts regulations and ordering it to pay fines in order and to create new organizations...thus by ordering new organizations to be made to create equality, also dictating new laws in order to mandate such actions to occur).

Because of this, those who wish to force the creation of new laws which otherwise cannot be passed via the traditional means either by vote or through Congressional legality, have pushed for more Judicial activism regarding the Federal Courts all the up to the Supreme Court.

How far this could go is questionable, but with more extremes placed upon it, one could see that this may result in a Crisis in the future.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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