Rich Man & Lazarus

[mikbone]

Luke 16:19-31, from next weeks CFM

What a great parable.  My thoughts:

Purple (royalty, wealth, status?)

Fared sumptuously every day -  Daily feasting, likely overweight and alcoholic.

The Rich man is not named But Lazarus is, and the Rich man knows this beggar by name.  The family dogs accept him.  And the Rich man’s brothers also know Lazarus.  Was the Rich man punishing Lazarus and not just ignoring him?

Rich man is tormented in hell and mentions flame.  Must have been a bad person.

Rich man is separated from Lazarus by a barrier, yet he can see Lazarus (see D&C 138).  And holds a conversation with Abraham…  No imagery of Devil. 

Lazarus is succored in Abraham’s bosom.  Must have been a good person.

I’m not really into discussions of socioeconomic equality.  And I don’t believe that the parable is part of Jesus’ political platform.

“If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”    -  Faith not signs bring conversion and change.

Edited May 1, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

As an appendage to @mikbone's post – I do not know of a single time that Jesus suggested that it was a good idea to seek in any way to become rich or wealthy.  Apparently there is something evil to its core in accumulating riches and yet we all seem to wish for it.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

Apparently there is something evil to its core in accumulating riches and yet we all seem to wish for it.

At what point does earning a living become evil?  Is there a dollar amount?

Is it reasonable to ask for a raise or negotiate a favorable contract?

asking for a friend.

Edited May 1, 2023 by mikbone

[Traveler]

I would answer with my opinion to the best of my understanding.

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

At what point does earning a living become evil?  Is there a dollar amount?

When receiving a wage becomes more important than the life and well-being of others.  It is not about dollar amount as it is about respect and honor of other living beings especially human beings.  This is the primary I would strongly discourage anyone seeking an abortion of convenience.  I am also opposed to any wage involving what anciently was known as filthy lucre in any amount.

Quote

Is it reasonable to ask for a raise or negotiate a favorable contract?

asking for a friend.

It would depend not on amount as much as intent to do with what one is paid or what in one's life is intent on being changed.   Personally, I would discourage seeking more $$$$ for the purpose of purchasing more stuff; especially stuff one intends others to take care of.  If the $$$$$ sought are for paying those in your employ – I think such is a good and noble pursuit.  In essence it has to do with selfishness and self-centeredness as a motive for the increase or favorable contract.

And for the record - I count you as a friend.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

6 hours ago, mikbone said:

At what point does earning a living become evil?  Is there a dollar amount?

Is it reasonable to ask for a raise or negotiate a favorable contract?

asking for a friend.

The words "sufficient for your needs" comes to mind. Of course that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. But that's the real test I think, how we choose to interpret it. And my guess is that for a person who truly seeks to consecrate themselves their interpretation will change over time.

[Carborendum]

16 hours ago, mikbone said:

At what point does earning a living become evil?  Is there a dollar amount?

Is it reasonable to ask for a raise or negotiate a favorable contract?

asking for a friend.

"Earning a living" is commanded of us.  We are to eat by the sweat of our brow.  That has nothing to do with wealth.

Anything we have is the Lord's.  And even if we "earn a living", we must always give glory and thanks to the Lord for what we have.  It is the failure to recognize that it really all belongs to the Lord that is the sin.  It is He who gives us all we have (not by our "earning" it).  We only have stewardship over it.  And He will hold us accountable for how we handle that stewardship and how we care for His stuff.

Whatever negotiations you make, you make it because it is going to glorify the Lord somehow.  It's all His stuff anyway.  So, think of it as bargaining with another department of a business.  The other guy has been given stewardship as well.  But you want to make sure your department runs as well as the Lord would want it to run.  And the other guy needs to ensure that his department runs as well as the Lord would want it to run.  Our mortal negotiations will determine a balance point.  If we negotiate too poorly or too selfishly, that is not what the Lord would want because it results in a sub-optimal condition.  But we do need to negotiate.

A recent example from my life -- 

I had not worked for a particular client in over a year.  They called me and asked if I could pick up an old project that they really couldn't do without me.  There simply aren't enough people in my particular areas of specialty.  I agreed as long as I could get a raise (I cited recent inflation as the cause, and the fact that I'd kept the same rate for three or four years).

Since I "floated" my rate to a junior manager, it wasn't set in concrete.  The supervising manager made me an offer at the same rate I was at before which was now at the top end of what they would pay engineers.  I mentioned my history and inflation again.  He offered a small raise.  I countered.  We agreed.  And we were set.  The rate put me on par with many of the managing engineers at the company.  But I was just a staff engineer because of my specialty.  When there are only one or two engineers of a specialty, no one "manages" them.

I could have been a bully about it because I knew how dire his situation was.  I could have asked for a much bigger raise.  And eventually, he would have given it to me.  But I still wanted to be fair to the company.  And I was ok with a little less than I could have forced out of him, in exchange for longevity.  In the end, I believe we both gave a bit and met in the middle.  And we're seeing good fruits of the transaction.  Everyone is benefiting.

How does this give glory to the Lord?

First, everyone there knows I'm LDS.  Not quite so common among Texans.  They also know that I'm very good at what I do, thus I'm in demand.  Now they know that I can be fair, but part of it is so they can know that "those Mormons" are really good at their jobs.

I could certainly get by on less.  It would be tough.  We wouldn't have nearly as much kim chee.  But we could make it work.   I chose to not do so because I wanted some of the managers to be able to say "I hired a couple Mormons for some jobs.  They were really good at what they did.  And they always treated us right.  They earned every penny I paid them."

Edited May 2, 2023 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

“I bless thee that thy days upon this land shall be such that thou shalt fully fulfill the purpose of thy creation. I bless thee with the bounties of life for thou shalt have a knowledge that pertains unto thy financial structure and thou shalt be able to control the things and be blessed with material things in thy lifetime.”

How about this paragraph in a patriarchal blessing?

[Traveler]

I wanted to add some thoughts about wealth.  In my mind, money is a means of exchange and is not true wealth.  My father, who was very wealthy and also a goodly man (like Lehi) believed he could teach anyone the secret of wealth in one session of about a minute.   According to him there are only two secret principles of wealth. 

The first secret is to learn to love and enjoy work, especially the difficult, mundane, undignified and unpopular work that no one else wants to do.  According to him it is not enough to know how to work hard – the secret is to learn the joy of accomplishment in doing difficult things well and enjoy the fruit of just doing what others avoid.  I bring this up because there seems to be an attitude of disliking difficult work and that if someone has wealth – they can bribe others with their money into doing the work that they hate or strongly dislike.  I was taught that one should never think of someone else doing anything because you do not want to.   This little secret will always make one valued and even indispensable.  People that willingly work should have the greatest respect. 

The second secret is not so difficult – always spend less than you earn and always make investing a priority.

There is one other thought.  I learned this long ago when I returned home after being in the army for two years and serving on a mission for two years.  I was having difficulty with dating and my course work in college.  Honestly, I felt the college ladies were poorly focused and the course work too structured, unchallenging and not real world applicable (too many professors focused on themselves and not on teaching).   I decided to quit school without dropping my classes and walk away from civilization into the desert wilderness of southern Utah living off the land for 40 days and nights (partly inspired by Moses and Jesus in the wilderness).

What I learned is that we are rich with privilege just being here on earth.  I was spiritually guided and physically provided with everything I needed when I needed it.  Sometimes it seemed my provisions were the bare minimum of my needs, same spiritually – but always what was necessary.  When I needed water – there was drinkable water (not all water is drinkable).  When I needed food there was always something to eat (often just insects and grubs.)  When I needed spiritual guidance I was given impressions that answered.  Always much to be thankful for.

The scripture is absolutely true – “Have faith and be believing and ALL things will work out for your good!”

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

“I bless thee that thy days upon this land shall be such that thou shalt fully fulfill the purpose of thy creation. I bless thee with the bounties of life for thou shalt have a knowledge that pertains unto thy financial structure and thou shalt be able to control the things and be blessed with material things in thy lifetime.”

How about this paragraph in a patriarchal blessing?

The first thing that comes to mind every time I hear of financial prosperity is what is their trial in life then? Because I can think of many that to me would be worse. That thought helps keep my wealth seeking in check.

[lonetree]

One of the most chilling parts of the New Testament-I wince each time I come across it. This gives me pause when I hear someone state that 'the traditional Hell of everlasting torment is nowhere really found in the teachings of Jesus'.

Edited June 17, 2023 by lonetree

[CV75]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:23 AM, lonetree said:

One of the most chilling parts of the New Testament-I wince each time I come across it. This gives me pause when I hear someone state that 'the traditional Hell of everlasting torment is nowhere really found in the teachings of Jesus'.

What do you consider 'the traditional Hell of everlasting torment' to be?

[lonetree]

On 6/18/2023 at 2:09 PM, CV75 said:

What do you consider 'the traditional Hell of everlasting torment' to be?

Besides the phrase I used^, -no hope- that such a thing will ever end-or that someone will end it for you. The description of hell in James Joyce's 'Portrait of the artist as a young man' which I first encountered in high school comes to mind. The one about mountains of grains of sand and each million years a bird carries one grain away... I read once it may originally have come from Augustine but I'm not sure. It is hard to believe that such pictures of eternal pain and hopelessness did not borrow or were not inspired in some way by this parable.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:49 PM, mikbone said:

Luke 16:19-31, from next weeks CFM

What a great parable.  My thoughts:

Purple (royalty, wealth, status?)

Fared sumptuously every day -  Daily feasting, likely overweight and alcoholic.

The Rich man is not named But Lazarus is, and the Rich man knows this beggar by name.  The family dogs accept him.  And the Rich man’s brothers also know Lazarus.  Was the Rich man punishing Lazarus and not just ignoring him?

Rich man is tormented in hell and mentions flame.  Must have been a bad person.

Rich man is separated from Lazarus by a barrier, yet he can see Lazarus (see D&C 138).  And holds a conversation with Abraham…  No imagery of Devil. 

Lazarus is succored in Abraham’s bosom.  Must have been a good person.

I’m not really into discussions of socioeconomic equality.  And I don’t believe that the parable is part of Jesus’ political platform.

“If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”    -  Faith not signs bring conversion and change.

I now think of these videos when I see this parable. We need to help people in every way we can.

 

[Vort]

I see so much stuff like this that starts looking to my eyes like media manipulation; my inner cynic says that this was $100 invested that will return a lot more in YouTube payouts. But my inner Saint tells my inner cynic to shut up and just enjoy the idea of seeing a person helping out someone in need.

I like that the guy chose a hug over a handshake.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I see so much stuff like this that starts looking to my eyes like media manipulation; my inner cynic says that this was $100 invested that will return a lot more in YouTube payouts. But my inner Saint tells my inner cynic to shut up and just enjoy the idea of seeing a person helping out someone in need.

I like that the guy chose a hug over a handshake.

I was cautiously cynical of these videos too, until I looked into it and found that he does not make a dime and uses all the money he gets from views to help people even more. 

[CV75]

17 hours ago, lonetree said:

Besides the phrase I used^, -no hope- that such a thing will ever end-or that someone will end it for you. The description of hell in James Joyce's 'Portrait of the artist as a young man' which I first encountered in high school comes to mind. The one about mountains of grains of sand and each million years a bird carries one grain away... I read once it may originally have come from Augustine but I'm not sure. It is hard to believe that such pictures of eternal pain and hopelessness did not borrow or were not inspired in some way by this parable.

Here is something that might resonate with you, part of a revelation given to Jospeh Smith: Doctrine and Covenants 19 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

1 I am ^aAlpha and Omega, ^bChrist the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the ^cworld.

2 I, having accomplished and ^afinished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might ^bsubdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all ^apower, even to the ^bdestroying of Satan and his works at the ^cend of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, ^djudging every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this ^amystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my ^arest.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

[Vort]

18 hours ago, lonetree said:

The one about mountains of grains of sand and each million years a bird carries one grain away... I read once it may originally have come from Augustine but I'm not sure. It is hard to believe that such pictures of eternal pain and hopelessness did not borrow or were not inspired in some way by this parable.

There are roughly one trillion (10¹²) grains of fine sand per cubic meter. "Mountains" is not a precise specification, but for a small mountain/large dune, we might guess roughly a million cubic meters. (Maybe a billion for a somewhat larger mountain.) So taking the one million figure, we're looking at around 10¹⁸ (a quintillion) grains of sand. At a million years per grain carried away, it would take 10²⁴ (a septillion) years.

This is such an absurdly long period of time that we have no good way of even getting our  minds around it. For comparison, it is roughly 10¹⁴ times the estimated age of our universe. That means if you lived the life of our universe from the so-called Big Bang until this moment, then went back and relived it again, and kept repeating that a total of ten million times, that amount of elapsed time would put you one ten-millionth of the way to a septillion years. You would have to live ten million universe ages ten million separate times.

As one segment of a wonderful series of lectures, the famous computer scientist/mathematician Donald Knuth (a faithful Lutheran) described what Graham's number was and then tried to describe what it would be like to live Graham's number of nanoseconds. His conclusion was that, from any human standpoint, such a thing would be indistinguishable from eternity. Well, of course that is simply false by definition, but I think Knuth wasn't looking for doctrinal truth. I think he was trying to describe how monstrously enormous the numbers that we construct in our numbering system can become. And, of course, that literally unthinkably huge Graham's number—far, far, far, unbelievably far greater than the septillion years we just talked about—is vanishingly tiny compared with all positive numbers, almost 100% of which are a very great deal larger than Graham's number. That being the case, eternity cannot even reasonably be contemplated.

So I'm not actually going anywhere with this. Just responding to @lonetree's comment.

EDIT: Donald Knuth, "Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About"

Edited June 20, 2023 by Vort

[lonetree]

On 6/20/2023 at 5:27 PM, CV75 said:

Here is something that might resonate with you, part of a revelation given to Jospeh Smith: Doctrine and Covenants 19 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

1 I am ^aAlpha and Omega, ^bChrist the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the ^cworld.

2 I, having accomplished and ^afinished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might ^bsubdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all ^apower, even to the ^bdestroying of Satan and his works at the ^cend of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, ^djudging every man according to his ^eworks and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this ^amystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my ^arest.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

So, endless punishment is not necessarily torment without end but has been redefined by God as something that is His to pass on to the unrepentant, because he had to suffer.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, lonetree said:

So, endless punishment is not necessarily torment without end but has been redefined by God as something that is His to pass on to the unrepentant, because he had to suffer.

I disagree somewhat with this interpretation. Christ's atonement frees us from the wages of sin, which wages are spiritual death. But if we do not avail ourselves of that gift, we will inevitably suffer the same horrific spiritual death that Christ himself suffered and overcame. But such suffering will not sanctify us; it is simply the price of our sinfulness, a  price that will not be paid by Christ until we accept his payment for us.

Some have understood the above verses of Section 19 as a proclamation that we ourselves must "pay" for our own sins if we don't accept Christ's atonement, but this is antidoctrinal. We are unable to pay for our own sins. Period. No amount of suffering on our part pays for anything. We are unclean and in a damned state, and we cannot be cleansed from that damnation save by the blood of Christ. There is no other way. And until we accept that atoning blood of our Savior, we, like Alma the younger, must suffer eternal damnation. I see no other reasonable interpretation for Section 19.

[lonetree]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:02 PM, Vort said:

There are roughly one trillion (10¹²) grains of fine sand per cubic meter. "Mountains" is not a precise specification, but for a small mountain/large dune, we might guess roughly a million cubic meters. (Maybe a billion for a somewhat larger mountain.) So taking the one million figure, we're looking at around 10¹⁸ (a quintillion) grains of sand. At a million years per grain carried away, it would take 10²⁴ (a septillion) years.

This is such an absurdly long period of time that we have no good way of even getting our  minds around it. For comparison, it is roughly 10¹⁴ times the estimated age of our universe. That means if you lived the life of our universe from the so-called Big Bang until this moment, then went back and relived it again, and kept repeating that a total of ten million times, that amount of elapsed time would put you one ten-millionth of the way to a septillion years. You would have to live ten million universe ages ten million separate times.

As one segment of a wonderful series of lectures, the famous computer scientist/mathematician Donald Knuth (a faithful Lutheran) described what Graham's number was and then tried to describe what it would be like to live Graham's number of nanoseconds. His conclusion was that, from any human standpoint, such a thing would be indistinguishable from eternity. Well, of course that is simply false by definition, but I think Knuth wasn't looking for doctrinal truth. I think he was trying to describe how monstrously enormous the numbers that we construct in our numbering system can become. And, of course, that literally unthinkably huge Graham's number—far, far, far, unbelievably far greater than the septillion years we just talked about—is vanishingly tiny compared with all positive numbers, almost 100% of which are a very great deal larger than Graham's number. That being the case, eternity cannot even reasonably be contemplated.

So I'm not actually going anywhere with this. Just responding to @lonetree's comment.

EDIT: Donald Knuth, "Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About"

I think that yr statement "This is such an absurdly long period of time that we have no good way of even getting our  minds around it." hits the nail on the head for me- It's not just the intensity of the torment, but the enormity of the time frame, if one can even call it that. My memory is hazy, but I am sure that the Sparrow-mountain illustration was known to me even before that high school reading of Joyce. Perhaps encountered at a revival or campfire meeting in my youth. On the source for Joyce's retreat hell sermon- https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/389596?journalCode=mp

Looking at the end of the parable now, it is surprising to me that it even made it into the new testament, as Abraham states, "...if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, Though One Rose From The Dead..."-italics mine.

Edited June 23, 2023 by lonetree
error

[CV75]

9 hours ago, lonetree said:

So, endless punishment is not necessarily torment without end but has been redefined by God as something that is His to pass on to the unrepentant, because he had to suffer.

Yes, He passes it on because He had to suffer (this is referred to as His "vengeance"), but as Vort noted above, this kind of relationship (or transaction) renders us unable to enjoy that which we might have received from Him. "For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift." (D&C 88).

[Carborendum]

I believe it an error to say that D&C 19 implies that there will actually be some termination point of the suffering.

The thing to ask about "endless torment" is: If there had been no Atonement of Christ, what would have been the punishment?  Paul tells us that the wages of sin is "death."  But we understand that to mean "spiritual death."  And spiritual death means being completely separated from God.

The word death/dead

• Indicates a finality from which we cannot recover. 
• Also means "absolute" (as in "dead ringer" or "dead on," etc.).  

Thus, we experience an absolute separation from God from which we cannot recover.  Endless/Eternal means both timeframe AND intensity.

Quote

...Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?  (Moses 1:3)

If endless punishment is God's punishment, would that not also include it actually having an endless timeframe?

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

If endless punishment is God's punishment, would that not also include it actually having an endless timeframe?

Quote

D&C 19:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

Not sure why the bold part would be there if "endless" was just another way of saying "no end".  Of course, I'm also pretty sure this is academic, unless one is thinking, "I can handle temporary Endless punishment, but I'm not willing to endure torment with no end, so I need to know which it is so I can make up my mind whether to repent."

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Not sure why the bold part would be there if "endless" was just another way of saying "no end".  Of course, I'm also pretty sure this is academic, unless one is thinking, "I can handle temporary Endless punishment, but I'm not willing to endure torment with no end, so I need to know which it is so I can make up my mind whether to repent."

 This is an example of God using language that has a calculated effect on the hearts of men. That sounds to our ears like verbal manipulation, but it is not. God respects our agency, even when we choose to be agents of evil or foolishness.

My interpretation of God's teachings in Section 19 is that "endless torment" need not be without end (cf. Alma the younger). God did not say that endless torment will certainly end; rather, he said that the term does not necessarily imply no end to the torment. All who repent and come unto Christ, without exception, will find rest to their souls and end to their torment. But we are told that not all will come unto Christ. For such, their torment cannot end.

[Carborendum]

38 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Not sure why the bold part would be there if "endless" was just another way of saying "no end".  Of course, I'm also pretty sure this is academic, unless one is thinking, "I can handle temporary Endless punishment, but I'm not willing to endure torment with no end, so I need to know which it is so I can make up my mind whether to repent."

The thing is that it this is exactly what I've heard from some individuals, some of them on this forum.

They think they can go to hell for every sin under the sun.  And they can handle any punishment. But as long as it ends, they'll "get away with it."