Moses 1:39

[Carborendum]

Mordorbund will be happy that I finally wrote the reference correctly.

I was listening to a bunch of biblical scholars, both Jewish and Christian, who were discussing the idea that God experiences sorrow or pain (Gen 6:6).  The discussion was along both secular and religious lines of reasoning.

My knee-jerk reaction was "(no) sorrow save it be for the sins of the world." (3 Ne 28:9).  So, yeah, God feels sorrow.

The discussion ranged all over.  I found it interesting that in the end, the had gone all around in semantic and philosophical circles to finally come to the conclusion that yes, kinda, sorta, He does feel sorrow for the sins of mankind.

Then the discussion took a different turn.  They had to ask the question: "What does God want?"  Sorrow only comes because you want something, and you don't get it.  So, if you're all powerful, there should be nothing that you want because you have everything or can get anything.

That logic train aside, I was amazed again that this circle of Biblical scholars had not approached the question of "what does He want?"  They all seemed to be feeling this question out.  They reasoned and explored ideas.  They went back and forth.  But the final conclusion (if you can call it that) is that He wants the salvation of man.

Gee... You mean that this circle of Christian and Jewish scholars discussing the desires of God took a long time to figure out that God's purpose is to "Bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man"?  I found that fascinating. 

Quote

And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? (Moses 7:29)

Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

If you're happy in heaven.  Then we're "more happy" because more people are saved?  If nothing can harm you, what is the purpose of doing more?

I've spent a lot of time asking this question.  And all I can figure is that we'll understand when we get there.  I just wonder if there is some answer to that question that can be explained in mortal terms.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

From Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion, Chapter 5 "Deny Not the Gifts of God" (bold is mine):

Quote

The unlimited gift that God's children from Adam on have been encouraged to seek with unceasing zeal is of course light and truth: "And finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me [says Abraham], I sought for the blessings of the fathers, . . . desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge . . . and to possess a greater knowledge, . . .desiring to receive instructions" (Abraham 1:2). Selfish? The greatest pleasure in having knowledge is to spread it around.

Once all your needs and desires are satisfied, what else is there than to "spread it around"?

Quote

Conspicuously lacking in the divine hierarchy is any sense of rank or class. Obedience and subordination in nowise jeopardize individual freedom and leadership and command, and in no way impose dictatorship as long as the whole concern of those above is to reach down in love to those below, and those below strive to rise in love to those above. (Moses 1:38-39.)

--Hugh Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies, Chapter 6 "Unrolling the Scrolls--Some Forgotten Witnesses"

Ideally, our work and our glory are, and will be, the same as God's - to continue bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man.

You can only play pinball with asteroids for so long before even that gets boring.  Only the unending uniqueness of individuals, only the importance of their salvation could be enough to interest an exalted being for eternity.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

If nothing can harm you, what is the purpose of doing more?

I recommend reading the entirety of Nibley's Approaching Zion.  But if you have to pick and choose, search for the bit about "goods of first intent": "There are things of which we never tire, with which we never become bored.  Those are the things of eternity."

The point of doing more, once you don't have to worry about needs or fears, is to enjoy those things of which we never tire, with which we never become bored.  IMO, Nibley does a really good job of making the earnest believer long for the Millennium.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Mordorbund will be happy that I finally wrote the reference correctly.

I was listening to a bunch of biblical scholars, both Jewish and Christian, who were discussing the idea that God experiences sorrow or pain (Gen 6:6).  The discussion was along both secular and religious lines of reasoning.

My knee-jerk reaction was "(no) sorrow save it be for the sins of the world." (3 Ne 28:9).  So, yeah, God feels sorrow.  And 

The discussion ranged all over.  I found it interesting that in the end, the had gone all around in semantic and philosophical circles to finally come to the conclusion that yes, kinda, sorta, He does feel sorrow for the sins of mankind.

Then the discussion took a different turn.  They had to ask the question: "What does God want?"  Sorrow only comes because you want something, and you don't get it.  So, if you're all powerful, there should be nothing that you want because you have everything or can get anything.

That logic train aside, I was amazed again that this circle of Biblical scholars had not approached the question of "what does He want?"  They all seemed to be feeling this question out.  They reasoned and explored ideas.  They went back and forth.  But the final conclusion (if you can call it that) is that He wants the salvation of man.

Gee... You mean that this circle of Christian and Jewish scholars discussing the desires of God took a long time to figure out that God's purpose is to "Bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man"?  I found that fascinating. 

Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

If you're happy in heaven.  Then we're "more happy" because more people are saved?  If nothing can harm you, what is the purpose of doing more?

I've spent a lot of time asking this question.  And all I can figure is that we'll understand when we get there.  I just wonder if there is some answer to that question that can be explained in mortal terms.

There are other causes of sorrow, and perhaps these can be explored in the context of pure love.

God's omnipotence and omniscience, I believe, are relative to us. 3 Nephi has Jesus giving 2 conditionals: 1) if those in Jerusalem ask about the other sheep, and 2) if the Gentiles repent. Both in the affirmative would bring Him joy, but He expresses sorrow for their wickedness.

[zil2]

Another answer, from today's reading:

Quote

Alma 36

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

25 Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;

26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.

FWIW

[laronius]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

If you're happy in heaven.  Then we're "more happy" because more people are saved?  If nothing can harm you, what is the purpose of doing more?

You are a parent. Why do you do it?

[Traveler]

I am of the understanding that the war in heaven was fought over agency.  That what G-d wants above all else is that we choose for ourselves.

I believe G-d is sorrowful when humans become miserable because they have sacrificed their agency for the temporary pleasures of darkness and sin and lost their freedom and have fallen into bondage.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:43 AM, Carborendum said:

"what does He want?" 

The other day my 16 year old daughter without asking made me a perfect BLT sandwich.  It was awesome.  Totally made my day.  

And then I reflected about how good it tasted and how nice the presentation was.  And how satisfied I was that my daughter had learned the skill and had the compassion to give me such a great gift.

I then realized that that experience alone was worth the trip to Earth and all the associated hardship.

It wouldn’t surprise me if God created us and sent us here for a similar purpose.

Consider all the amazing things that we have created that are totally awesome.

Soy Sauce, Kimchi, Pizza, Chick-fil-a sauce

Art, Music, Sports, Stories

None of the above would probably be conceived in the celestial kingdom.  

 

We certainly are entertaining.  And some of our happy little accidents are marvelous.

Edited May 7, 2023 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, mikbone said:

...Kimchi...

...

None of the above would probably be conceived in the celestial kingdom.  

Bite your tongue.  Every Korean knows that kimchi is the food of the gods! 

[romans8]

On 5/4/2023 at 12:43 PM, Carborendum said:

Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

From the previous edition of Gospel Principles:

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like
him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

[zil2]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:43 AM, Carborendum said:

Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

Another quote came to mind:

Quote

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, Chapter 17.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

From the previous edition of Gospel Principles:

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like
him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Are you trying to be insulting?

[LDSGator]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Are you trying to be insulting?

I don’t think he knows. 

[LDSGator]

I’ll predict what will happen next. He’ll claim he’s just “asking questions” and pretend he’s the innocent victim here who doesn’t understand how he’s coming across and we can’t understand his intentions. We’ve seen it all before but I’m 99% sure he thinks he asking questions none of us have heard. 

 

How close am I @romans8? Be honest. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by LDSGator

[zil2]

Speaking of asking questions, I just have to ask this, @romans8:

It's Saturday morning (perhaps afternoon) in Switzerland (or so your profile says).  The Alps are right there outside your door, and you've got nothing better to do than copy and paste text out of manuals of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  All for the benefit of what, the 10 people who frequent this forum?  Every Saturday for 3 years?  (Happy belated cake day¹, BTW.)

Get yourself a puppy or a kitten.  Take the wife and kiddos up into the mountains.  Go for a hike.  Drive too fast (just a little) on the hairpins.  Have a picnic.  Stroll through the park.  There have to be about a billion better things you could enjoy.

¹This is what they call your sign-up anniversary on reddit.

[Just_A_Guy]

6 hours ago, zil2 said:

Speaking of asking questions, I just have to ask this, @romans8:

It's Saturday morning (perhaps afternoon) in Switzerland (or so your profile says).  The Alps are right there outside your door, . . .

And the wisteria in Lauterbrunnen is in full bloom—or was, last week, when I was there. 

I think we all need some time in the Alps.

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And the wisteria in Lauterbrunnen is in full bloom—or was, last week, when I was there.

Yes, riding through the Old Country yesterday in my locally sourced Maserati, enjoying the unspoiled vineyards and rolling Tuscany countryside, the clear, scented air of the villa, music in the air, the servants chatting jovially in their native Florentine dialect, really brought home to me the fact that it's the simple things in life that count, those that mere vulgar money cannot buy.

[Just_A_Guy]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Yes, riding through the Old Country yesterday in my locally sourced Maserati, enjoying the unspoiled vineyards and rolling Tuscany countryside, the clear, scented air of the villa, music in the air, the servants chatting jovially in their native Florentine dialect, really brought home to me the fact that it's the simple things in life that count, those that mere vulgar money cannot buy.

Well played, sir!

[Carborendum]

41 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

44 minutes ago, Vort said:

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And the wisteria in Lauterbrunnen is in full bloom—or was, last week, when I was there. 

I think we all need some time in the Alps.

Yes, riding through the Old Country yesterday in my locally sourced Maserati, enjoying the unspoiled vineyards and rolling Tuscany countryside, the clear, scented air of the villa, music in the air, the servants chatting jovially in their native Florentine dialect, really brought home to me the fact that it's the simple things in life that count, those that mere vulgar money cannot buy.

Well played, sir!

And here I was thinking:  Isn't wisteria poisonous?

Back to physics vs literature again.

[Just_A_Guy]

38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And here I was thinking:  Isn't wisteria poisonous?

Back to physics vs literature again.

Maybe you’re thinking of oleander?

 

(Edit:  just Googled it and, holy cow!  I had no idea!)

Edited May 7, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[laronius]

23 hours ago, romans8 said:

From the previous edition of Gospel Principles:

All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like
him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Yes, that is what it boils down to. That recognition of our actual parent/child relationship is one of the first truths Satan attacked in the great apostasy. When you lose that truth so much of the gospel becomes unraveled, including our identity and our eternal potential. We also see in this truth the motivation behind our Heavenly Father's actions, His love for us His children.

[Carborendum]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:28 PM, zil2 said:

Once all your needs and desires are satisfied, what else is there than to "spread it around"?

I've thought about this over the weekend.  This is pretty much the final answer for me.  We understand that for every explanation there is always a deeper "why".  But at some point we need to say,"OK, this is enough."

I think you just hit that point for me.  This is good.

[romans8]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:35 AM, Carborendum said:

Are you trying to be insulting?

No.  The Gospel Principles just mentioned a qualifier.  The "a god" part.

[zil2]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:43 AM, Carborendum said:

Then we're "more happy" because more people are saved?

Had another thought. The things of God - the eternal and most important things - only increase: His love increases as more people learn to love as He does, His knowledge increases as more people gain that knowledge (not in Him knowing more, but that more people have knowledge), and yes, joy increases as more people progress farther and farther.  Doesn't each child bring you more joy than had you stopped at one fewer?

Spreading it around, increasing it through multiplication, appears to be the ultimate way of increasing these eternal things.  And they cannot be decreased by spreading it around - if I have $100 and spread it around, I have less money at the end.  But if I have love or knowledge or wisdom or whatever-other-attribute and help someone else to develop that attribute, now there's more of it - the true "win-win" situation.

[zil2]

53 minutes ago, romans8 said:

Gospel Principles

...exists to teach converts what Primary children (those under the age of 12) learn.  @Carborendum (and everyone else here) is over the age of 12.  You can't tell us anything we don't already know by quoting Gospel Principles.

How are the Alps looking this spring?  Are you enjoying the wildflowers?  Are hiking trails open?

[LDSGator]

27 minutes ago, zil2 said:

How are the Alps looking this spring?  Are you enjoying the wildflowers?  Are hiking trails open?

You missed out @zil2. Dude is like the Punxsutawney Phil of posters here. Comes out of the darkness for a few minutes, then slithers away for another week.