Israel declares war

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:44 AM, Traveler said:

I have concerns for our Church and church members abroad in various countries.  The Church has developed good relationships with both Israel (Jews in Israel) and many of the leaders in Muslem countries.  Our Jerusalem center is an important and critical asset in Jerusalem.  Likewise, the LDS Church is the only Christian church that I am aware of that is legal in Saudi Arabia.

I was unaware any Christian churches at all were allowed into Saudi Arabia.  It is crazy to me to think that the Restored Church of Christ is allowed into Saudi Arabia.  We must not have missionaries there or if we do, they are not allowed to proselyte.

[Just_A_Guy]

28 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I was unaware any Christian churches at all were allowed into Saudi Arabia.  It is crazy to me to think that the Restored Church of Christ is allowed into Saudi Arabia.  We must not have missionaries there or if we do, they are not allowed to proselyte.

 

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

That old thread is most interesting and was fun to go back and read.  I am surprised that so much time has passed – almost 20 years.  It has always been difficult to get accurate information.  My Muslem friend that provided most of my information back then has dropped off the face of the electronic earth.  I have not heard from him for over a decade.  Likewise, my contact here in Salt Lake City – the mosque here has been moved to a new (fully owned) building and is under new management.

In short, I am relying mostly on old information.  It is possible there have been changes.  The last I heard the Church was on excellent terms.  I am concerned with the most recent developments.  According to the news (both Fox and the liberal media) there has been a seismic shift in the Middle East.

A little history here.  In the Muslem world, there has always been difficulties between Saudi Ariaba (keeper of the most sacred sights in Islam) and Iran.  The difficulty comes from differences in that Saudi Ariaba is a stronghold of Arabian culture and Iran is rooted in Persian culture (racial divide).  In addition, Saudi Ariaba predominantly Sunni and Iran is predominantly Shiite (sort of similar to historical problems between Catholics verses Protestants in Christianity).  One big difference between Christianity and Islam – an Islamic Mosque belongs to G-d and is not considered owned by any denomination or sect and therefore (according to Islamic scripture) is open to all strips of Muslims.   In Christianity, unique religious sects are owners of worship places and other sects are considered visiting temporary guests.

One thing concerns me – It seems that in the Islamic world there is no public support for Israel.  Ether there is support for Hamas or they are silent on the issue.   I have not heard of any Islamic group demonstrating against Hamas and their actions.  In contrast there were many in the Islamic world that made a public stand against ISIS.  We are not getting expected support for Israel at the UN.  We can wait and see but I think Israel will have difficulties (PR problems world wide) – likewise I suspect an uptick in related terrorists’ activities in the USA.   We will see if this will blow over or if something else is brewing.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

One thing concerns me – It seems that in the Islamic world there is no public support for Israel.  Ether there is support for Hamas or they are silent on the issue.

I totally agree with you-though I remain convinced that your average Muslim is appalled by Hamas and wants to live in peace. I think they view Hamas the same way reasonable Christians view those who shoot up abortion clinics. As lunatics who are poisoning the well. 

[NeuroTypical]

Pretty dang short list of nations willing to say obvious things out loud:

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I totally agree with you-though I remain convinced that your average Muslim is appalled by Hamas and wants to live in peace. I think they view Hamas the same way reasonable Christians view those who shoot up abortion clinics. As lunatics who are poisoning the well. 

Just a little bit of history.  In the 8th century Charlemagne rose to power in France.  He was primarily responsible for our modern education tradition in establishing universal education or defining a university and grading students on their progress.  He also was a major source in determining the books to be included in the Christian Bible as well as establishing the primary source of ancient literature used for translations.  The point here is that he was a highly respected Christian.  But he had a dark side.  To establish Christianity in Northern Europe he developed the slash and burn strategy.   He sent his armies through Northern Europe city by city and any city harboring even a single pagan citizen or any pagan symbols – the city would be burned to the ground, all of the inhabitants of the city put to death (men, women and children) and the crops and farm animals destroyed. 

His methods were very effective.  Paganism was wiped out as a religion and symbols of paganism became signs depravity.   For example, Friday the 13th has become a dark day of ominous bad luck.   Very few “Christians” in history would consider his conversion techniques Christian – even during his lifetime.  But few would oppose him openly.  We are seeing the same with various factions of Islam.  Very few Muslims I have encountered (actually none), hold to the notion that terrorism is an acceptable means of conversion but both Christians and Muslims believe that at the end of times that the infidels will be destroyed bringing an era of peace.
 

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

On 10/13/2023 at 12:44 PM, Traveler said:

Likewise, the LDS Church is the only Christian church that I am aware of that is legal in Saudi Ariba. 

There are many Christian churches that are legal in Saudi Arabia because of their state run oil company Saudi-Aramco.  But they are extremely limited in where they can go.  And they certainly cannot proselyte.

They have to hire western engineers and project managers to do their design work.  And they prefer to have all personnel in-house, not outside contractors.  There simply isn't enough of the native population that is qualified.

The westerners are kept in gigantic compounds that are cared for by the company.  Get this: Grass lawns.  Yes.  Most of the rest of the nation is a desert.  But these compounds have grass lawns.

Food is delivered to their homes on a regular basis.  So, they don't have to go shopping. They just fill out a grocery list and it gets filled.  And they have maid service.

They are allowed outside the compound and usually have escorts, especially the women.

Schools are available for children.  The parents say that it is like living in the 1950s. Crime, drugs, etc is non-existent.  Being so isolated, almost no one gets sick.

While technically other religions are illegal, the Crown allows special dispensation for these employees.  AFAIK, we have a population of Saints about the size of a very large stake.  But we can't call it a stake even though it is one.

The employees are given a well-kept non-descript building to "do whatever" -- meaning that they can perform their religious observances as they wish. But it has to be kept within the compound.

I haven't heard about any other populations other than Christian ones there.  Not to say they aren't there.  I just haven't heard one way or the other.

[Traveler]

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There are many Christian churches that are legal in Saudi Arabia because of their state run oil company Saudi-Aramco. .....,

Whatever the number of legal churches is - I do not know what churches are on the list.  I only know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is legal.  I also know that a member of the LDS church can be a citizen of Saudi Arabia.  I could name one but have been asked not to.  There may be others - but I cannot positively name any others.  I do know of some members (LDS) that can travel in Saudi Arabia without escorts.  Perhaps not everywhere but throughout most of the country.  In contrast visitors to the USA are seldom allowed on military bases without escorts.   Most countries have limits - or so I am told.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

15 hours ago, Traveler said:

Whatever the number of legal churches is - I do not know what churches are on the list.  I only know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is legal.  

Where did you get this information?

They allow foreigners to "be a member" of any religion.  But one cannot show any "public observance" of any religion other than Islam.

Quote

Islam is the official religion, and all Saudis are required by law to be Muslims. A 2014 royal decree punishes atheism with up to 20 years in prison. The government prohibits the public observance of any religion other than Islam and restricts Shiite and Sufi Muslims’ religious practices. 

https://freedomhouse.org/country/saudi-arabia/freedom-world/2023#:~:text=Islam is the official religion,and Sufi Muslims' religious practices.

They allow work-arounds (with severe restrictions) for many religions.  But officially, none are "legal" except for Islam.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

52 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Where did you get this information?

They allow foreigners to "be a member" of any religion.  But one cannot show any "public observance" of any religion other than Islam.

Exactly. 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Where did you get this information?

They allow foreigners to "be a member" of any religion.  But one cannot show any "public observance" of any religion other than Islam.

They allow work-arounds (with severe restrictions) for many religions.  But officially, none are "legal" except for Islam.

My information is from the British dentist that lived in Saudi Aribia.  Also, my cozen married a Saudi citizen that has joint USA citizenship and is LDS that works in Saudi US international relationships (now retired).  It is my understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is officially recognized by the Saudi government – the full extent of this recognition as of today I cannot account for, but I believe there have been advancements (though I am not aware) since the thread “Lds Church And Saudi Aribia”.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

28 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is my understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is officially recognized by the Saudi government

You are wrong. 

[LDSGator]

From what little I know, the Saudis have cracked down on tourists even bringing bibles/BOMs into for personal use, so I’m extremely skeptical. 

[misfit]

On 10/10/2023 at 12:50 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I

 

Edited January 27 by misfit

[Carborendum]

So, Biden just appointed a former PLO spokeswoman as the person in charge of determining eligibility for asylum from Palestine.

Yeah, that will work out well.

 

AND... Hamas blew up their own hospital and blamed it on Israel.  Yup, they're oppressed.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

AND... Hamas blew up their own hospital and blamed it on Israel.  Yup, they're oppressed.

Holy crap everyone is sure pointing fingers back and forth on the hospital.   I like Daniel Rubenstein's take:

Quote

Here's a story for you about how the news industry works.

Earlier tonight, the group that invaded Israel, massacred 1000+ people, burned families to death in their homes, took hostages back to Gaza, and recorded it all with GoPros – this group announced that Israel bombed a hospital in Gaza, killing hundreds. Then, instead of waiting for more information from the Israeli side, the editors of the world's most important media outlets said to themselves: "This is enough for us. Let's run with it." Headlines screamed that Israel bombed a hospital. Push notifications were sent to MILLIONS of people.

CNN push: "Hundreds of people may have been killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza City hospital, according to the Palestinian health ministry"

BBC push: "Hundreds feared dead or injured in Israeli air strike on hospital in Gaza, Palestinian officials say"

NYT push: "At least 500 people were killed by an Israeli airstrike at a Gaza hospital, the Palestinian Health Ministry said"

Do you see what they did there?

They put the dramatic news in the beginning of the sentence and then they cited the source at the end so that the assertion is technically true. The Palestinian Health Ministry DID say that.

The thing is, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza is a Hamas institution.

What do you call people who amplify Hamas propaganda not just as news, but as the top news story in the world?

There is no way that a professional military such as the Israel Defense Forces can give an instant answer about a catastrophe in enemy territory during a war. It took around two or three hours for the IDF to share the results of its initial investigation – that the explosion at the hospital was a due to a rocket launched by Islamic Jihad that malfunctioned and crashed back into Gaza. More evidence is coming out as I write this.

The sad fact is that it appears that hundreds of Palestinians are dead at a hospital because terrorists in Gaza tried to fire rockets at Israelis and ended up hitting their own people. It's unbearably stupid and tragic. None of this is new, unfortunately. Journalists in the Middle East know – they absolutely know – that a significant percentage of Hamas and Islamic Jihad’s rockets misfire and crash into residential areas of Gaza. I've attached a famous example. This video is from May 2022. It shows a live broadcast of a rocket being launched from a residential area of Gaza. The rocket malfunctions, turns sideways, and crashes into the city. The overexcited broadcaster tries to pretend that nothing unusual happened and asks the camera man to turn away. The video went viral at the time. There are other known instances where this happened. These rockets are designed to kill people. Don't act surprised when they do. I say all of this to remind you to treat breaking news from Gaza with caution, even if it's unpopular to do so.

Here's the video of a misfiring rocket from 2022:

 

Here's information gleaned from IDF radar footage, tracking missile trajectories:

 

Here's some video released by the IDF, claiming to be footage of the rocket:

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[Phoenix_person]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Holy crap everyone is sure pointing fingers back and forth on the hospital.   I like Daniel Rubenstein's take:

Here's the video of a misfiring rocket from 2022:

 

Here's information gleaned from IDF radar footage, tracking missile trajectories:

 

Here's some video released by the IDF, claiming to be footage of the rocket:

 

The amount of deliberate misinformation and propaganda coming from both the IDF and Hamas is dizzying. I truly don't know what to believe lately. They know the world is watching and there's more lies than rockets being thrown around in that region. I've had a busy week and haven't had much time to dig into the hospital atrack, but we seem to have verification that IDF used white phosphorus on civilian populations in Gaza (which is very specifically forbidden by the Geneva Conventions) and attacked caravans of refugees who were fleeing Gaza on Israeli recommendations. The actions of Hamas that started all this were horrific and indefensible, but Israel isn't exactly making themselves look great with their response. I get that Hamas is a difficult enemy to fight conventionally, but preservation of innocent life still needs to be a priority, and I'm not convinced that IDF views any Palestinian life as innocent.

[Traveler]

One thing I learned from all my training while in the military that prepared me for fighting a war – nothing --- absolutely nothing associated with victory required honesty and truth.   In fact, a great deal about combat tactics requires deception about what you are doing or planning.  We see this concept of deception even in sports.  The effort to convince opponents you are doing or preparing for one thing when in reality you are preparing for something very different is absolutely necessary.

Winston Churchill said there are many things worse that war and they all come from losing one.  As sad as it may seem and we may say we will not do – things like killing women and children – the truth is that if you will not kill women and children – the more evil you enemy the more they can use such evil as they will to defeat you.

Patton once said something along the line that we should never go into war with the attitude that we are willing to give our life for our country (family or whatever we believe).  The purpose of war it to kill the other guy that is willing to die for their country (or family or whatever they believe).

The sad reality is that only those that lose a war will ever be convicted of war crimes.   Sometimes wars are not lost to the enemy without but rather to the enemy within or the enemy we think are our friends.  We think of the horrors of war in term of what we do to each other but the real horror of war is what we do to ourselves so we can kill our enemies.

I have said several times that I advocate that every citizen should be required to fulfill a military obligation before they have full citizenship rights – especially the right to vote.  This is because I do not believe very many understand what the responsibilities your government and those that are government officials have to citizens and what the responsibility of free citizen require.  Anyone that is not willing shoulder the responsibility of war to protect their freedom – is not worthy of their freedom and are at the mercy those willing to go to war with the intent to win for whatever they believe.

I am becoming more and more convinced from what I see developing, that without the intervention of G-d, Israel and all her allies will lose this war.  In truth, especially the good people will require the intervension of G-d to survive war.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

The amount of deliberate misinformation and propaganda coming from both the IDF and Hamas is dizzying.

From Page 1 in the leftist playbook:

If you ever get into a situation where you simply cannot deny the overwhelming bias from the Left, admit it only by insisting that both sides are guilty. Never, ever, ever admit unilaterally that your side is wrong. Remember the brave actions of famous Lefist columnist Ellen Goodman, who, when confronted with undeniable proof that the feminist icon Lorena Bobbitt had inarguably attacked and maimed a helpless man (her husband), danced gracefully around the issue by stating, "A pox on both their houses." (Bobbitt, you will recall, actually dodged all responsibility for her act by way of an insanity plea, a brilliant tactical maneuver.)

[NeuroTypical]

Holy crap, BBC world service. Do you have even an ounce of self-awareness? Or shame?

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Holy crap, BBC world service. Do you have even an ounce of self-awareness? Or shame?

In their defense (if there is any justification to do so) the tendency is for people to believe the first thing they are told.  Then to change that perspective then takes more energy and proof than it took to originally tell a story (any story) regardless of veracity.

This is a very dangerous tendency as a news source because the problem is then multiplied millions of times over.

[Ironhold]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Holy crap, BBC world service. Do you have even an ounce of self-awareness? Or shame?

Nope. 

A lot of news outlets these days prioritize "being first" over "being correct". 

The reality of the situation now appears to be that the rocket landed in the parking lot of the hospital, that the actual death toll is 1/10th of the original claim, and that the rocket which hit the parking lot may have been fired from Gaza and either aimed improperly or knocked off course by a defensive system. 

[LDSGator]

Some grim humor. 

[Vort]

47 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Some grim humor. 

Interviewer: I'm here with the one and only Michael Jordan! Michael, do you think the 1996 Bulls could beat LeBron's 2023 Lakers in a seven-game series?

MJ: Absolutely. We'd sweep them.

Interviewer: How about the 2023 champs, the Nuggets?

MJ: Yeah, they were a tough team, but we would beat them in a seven-game series. Probably 4-3.

Interviewer: What?! Not a sweep or even six or less? Why do you think they'd take you to seven games? Do I detect a lack of confidence?

MJ: Well, we're all like 60 years old now.

[LDSGator]

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

Interviewer: I'm here with the one and only Michael Jordan! Michael, do you think the 1996 Bulls could beat LeBron's 2023 Lakers in a seven-game series?

MJ: Absolutely. We'd sweep them.

Interviewer: How about the 2023 champs, the Nuggets?

MJ: Yeah, they were a tough team, but we would beat them in a seven-game series. Probably 4-3.

Interviewer: What?! Not a sweep or even six or less? Why do you think they'd take you to seven games? Do I detect a lack of confidence?

MJ: Well, we're all like 60 years old now.

@Vort-I know you and I think Hakeem is one of the best centers of all time. I would like to see his prime Rockets take on the Nuggets, actually 

Edited October 20, 2023 by LDSGator