Peter Santello starts a series of videos on the Mormons

[NeuroTypical]

Has anyone else watched a Peter Santello video or three?  Dude has a youtube channel with 3 million subscribers.  He basically goes into different communities in the US, finds some folks willing to talk about those communities, and asks a million dumb questions and learns.  Indian reservations, Chicago's most violent hood, Appalachia, Las Vegas sex workers, US border towns, Amish, Hasidic Jewish enclaves, etc.   I've probably watched a dozen over the last few years.  They are fascinating glimpses into worlds I know nothing about.  Dude shows up with genuine interest, his only goal is to go, as an outsider, into a place, and learn straight from the source.  

3 days ago, he released the first of several promised videos on Mormons.   

Cool stuff.  He found a BYU student history buff who walked him all around SLC and Provo.  I look forward to his next LDSocentric videos. 

[Just_A_Guy]

That kid represents himself and the Church really, really well.

[Traveler]

I will admit it was somewhat interesting to have a point of view from the generation of my grandkids.   For example, they talked about the times in which we live.  The LDS fellow seem to feel that things are not so urgent (to have a supply of food and be prepared in other ways).   I have always had the opinion that the urgency of the last days (end of times) is built into the very name of the church.  That the reason we send out missionaries is because this is the last days and the last chance – not necessarily for individuals (because of our work for the dead) but for the institutions, governments and principalities of the world.  The purpose of the missionaries is to gather those that intend to be prepared by covenant to welcome Christ and the era of peace.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

The implication that "Mormons" don't wear beards wasn't very accurate. Brock didn't seem to catch that he was thinking that meant for all Latter-day Saints rather than just BYU and/or leadership like roles. Things like that can be problematic. Thinking that if you join the church you can't wear a beard anymore is going to drive some away.

A minor complaint though.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Things like that can be problematic. Thinking that if you join the church you can't wear a beard anymore is going to drive some away.

 

I totally agree with you that the attitude does drive people away, but don’t worry about it.  That way of thinking about beards is still out there but it’s getting smaller and smaller. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by LDSGator

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication that "Mormons" don't wear beards wasn't very accurate. Brock didn't seem to catch that he was thinking that meant for all Latter-day Saints rather than just BYU and/or leadership like roles. Things like that can be problematic. Thinking that if you join the church you can't wear a beard anymore is going to drive some away.

A minor complaint though.

Season’s Greetings:

I felt that there were a lot of comments that addressed trends or culture within various segments of the LDS community but were not accurately representative of covenants and covenantal worthiness.  I thought that the concept of discipline ought to have been stressed -- that nothing of value is ever accomplished without some degree of discipline.   I also felt that the LDS prime directive of “Agency” as being the primary litmus between good and evil (AKA Satan’s objection towards G-d) was not properly discussed when questions arose about the LDS notion of others not falling in line with LDS theology.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That way of thinking about beards is still out there but it’s getting smaller and smaller. 

We ain't never changing our opinion about tattoos though, no matter how many you get:

[LDSGator]

9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We ain't never changing our opinion about tattoos though, no matter how many you get:

That’s awesome!! Lol

Happy Thanksgiving to you (and everybody else!) bro. 

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication that "Mormons" don't wear beards wasn't very accurate. Brock didn't seem to catch that he was thinking that meant for all Latter-day Saints rather than just BYU and/or leadership like roles. Things like that can be problematic. Thinking that if you join the church you can't wear a beard anymore is going to drive some away.

A minor complaint though.

I find it more problematic that people would be driven away from Christ because they can't have a beard.   

Don't drink alcohol?   Too easy.

No coffee or tea?   Who cares.

You have to shave every week?   Sorry, Jesus.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

I find it more problematic that people would be driven away from Christ because they can't have a beard.   

Don't drink alcohol?   Too easy.

No coffee or tea?   Who cares.

You have to shave every week?   Sorry, Jesus.

But we DON'T have to shave every week.

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

But we DON'T have to shave every week.

We don't HAVE to do anything. 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

We don't HAVE to do anything. 

Give me a freaking break. You should know exactly what I'm saying. Are you trying to be antagonistic?

[Grunt]

52 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Give me a freaking break. You should know exactly what I'm saying. Are you trying to be antagonistic?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all.  I've been told by priesthood leaders, directly, that certain callings are expected to be clean shaven.   Do I have to follow my priesthood leaders?  Of course not.  Should I follow the guidance of people called by God to lead His church?   Of course I do.   

People get so caught up in what they don't HAVE to do they neglect to think "hmmmm, should I follow the example of the Prophet?"

Edited November 23, 2023 by Grunt

[Still_Small_Voice]

7 hours ago, Grunt said:

We don't HAVE to do anything. 

Yes we do.  We have to pay taxes, and also deal with death and poop.  😀

[The Folk Prophet]

12 hours ago, Grunt said:

I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all.  I've been told by priesthood leaders, directly, that certain callings are expected to be clean shaven.   Do I have to follow my priesthood leaders?  Of course not.  Should I follow the guidance of people called by God to lead His church?   Of course I do.   

People get so caught up in what they don't HAVE to do they neglect to think "hmmmm, should I follow the example of the Prophet?"

When you suggest that all the good and faithful brethren in the church, my father-in-law, my neighbors, my friends, and oft times me, are not following the prophet because we have facial hair, and are essentially the same as those who are drinking alcohol and coffee, and then virtue blink in feigned wide-eyed innocence like it's not meant to be offensive or antagonistic...sorry....it doesn't play.

It's rude and it's wrong.

[Grunt]

46 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

When you suggest that all the good and faithful brethren in the church, my father-in-law, my neighbors, my friends, and oft times me, are not following the prophet because we have facial hair, and are essentially the same as those who are drinking alcohol and coffee, and then virtue blink in feigned wide-eyed innocence like it's not meant to be offensive or antagonistic...sorry....it doesn't play.

It's rude and it's wrong.

I don't know what to tell you my friend.  I never meant anything of the sort.   My post that you initially took issue with was speaking specifically towards this:   

Quote

Things like that can be problematic. Thinking that if you join the church you can't wear a beard anymore is going to drive some away.

I personally find it more "problematic" that thinking they can't have facial hair would drive someone away from the Church.    That was what I stated.  I went further by asserting I thought it foolish that someone would give up coffee, alcohol, and finances to follow Christ but facial hair would be where they drew the line.

Your only response was "we don't have to shave every week".  I pointed out that was a factual statement.  We don't have to.  We don't have to do anything.

You got a little snarky.  I further, again factually, explained why I feel the way I do.   

To be fair, I feel bad it bothers you so much, but I don't assume guilt.  I hold myself responsible for poor delivery from time to time, maybe even now, but I don't hold myself responsible for hurt feelings when asserting we should follow the examples and counsel of our priesthood leaders.

Happy Thanksgiving!  Enjoy your day.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Grunt

[Carborendum]

8 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Yes we do.  We have to pay taxes, and also deal with death and poop.  😀

No, we don't have to pay taxes.  We just need to deal with consequences afterward.

We have to die... eventually.

As long as we want to continue living, yes, we need to poop.  But there is a way to stop pooping.  Just stop eating.  Fixed.  Then we have to die.  

[estradling75]

I grew up in the Church, I served a mission, I have served and will continue to serve in various callings as I am called.  And I was clean shaven... up until the day my wife told me she liked the scruffy Aragorn look.  Now I don't know about the rest of you but I remember plenty of priesthood lesson around listening/hearing our wives.  I distinctly remember one General Authority go so far as to ask us if we wanted to receive revelation?  When we answered yes he told us to go home and listen to our wives.

I am a imperfect person I follow imperfectly but since that day I have been trying to do the scruffy Aragon look even though I am not nearly as good looking.  Because that is what the prophet (by proxy) has instructed me to do.  I am going to continue to do so until instructed otherwise.

Now some one might look at me and judge me that I am not following the prophet...  That is their unrighteous judgment to make and answer for.    I got enough on my plate dealing with my own faults.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, Grunt said:

but I don't hold myself responsible for hurt feelings when asserting we should follow the examples and counsel of our priesthood leaders.

Of course asserting we should follow the examples and counsel of our priesthood leaders isn't a bad thing. Are you really oblivious to the fact that correlating it to certain innocuous behavior is likely to offend?

That's the wide-eyed faux innocence's I'm talking about.

I didn't MEAN to hurt anyone's feelings by suggesting that if they drink soda they're not following the prophet.

I didn't MEAN to hurt anyone's feelings by suggesting if they don't homeschool their children their not true Christians.

I didn't MEAN to hurt anyone's feelings by implying that any true followers of Christ will be clean shaven.

OBVIOUSLY we should follow the prophet. That's not the concept that offends. And assuming or pretending like it is is a deflection.

If someone is asked to shave by a priesthood leader then clearly they should shave. I'm am clean shaven currently. Why? Because I'm a temple worker and they asked me to shave. I have no issues with doing as we are asked to do. I have an issue with the idea that allowing others to believe that we HAVE been asked to do things that we have NOT been asked to do is a good idea.

30 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I went further by asserting I thought it foolish that someone would give up coffee, alcohol, and finances to follow Christ but facial hair would be where they drew the line.

The problem is the reverse. There are those who may never get around to the challenge of giving up coffee or alcohol because they won't investigate the church because they NEEDLESSLY believe that "Mormons" look down on anyone with facial hair and can't drink Coca-Cola. It's the needless part I take issue with.

And I don't think we should be driving potential investigators away needlessly. We have litmus tests to pass. Let them be the tests they're meant to be and not otherwise shut doors that should be open.

And, frankly, I find the attitude that we can just write off anyone who doesn't take a look at the church because they believe things like we have to be clean shaven seriously problematic. 

I don't have any issue with someone coming to the conclusion that they need to be clean shaven to follow the prophet. I do have an issue with preaching to others that if they don't shave they aren't following the prophet, and even more so preaching to non-members that all faithful Latter-day Saints abstain from soda and shave.

 

[Grunt]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

I don't have any issue with someone coming to the conclusion that they need to be clean shaven to follow the prophet. I do have an issue with preaching to others that if they don't shave they aren't following the prophet, and even more so preaching to non-members that all faithful Latter-day Saints abstain from soda and shave.

 

Then I have zero idea what you're all wound up about.  I don't take issue when people do what they want.  I do take issue when they do what they want and assert there is nothing wrong with it.  

I don't care if you shave.  I don't care if you don't shave.   I find the assertion that people won't join the church unless we proclaim loud and proud that facial hair is great to be ridiculous, particularly when that isn't true.   Nobody, that I've ever seen, preaches to non-members that they have to shave.  The things we preach to non-members is fairly narrow, at least in my personal experience being preached to as a non-member.   As I grew to understand the gospel better, I also grew to understand the greater expectations of someone who follows Christ.  

 

What is true is that there are many positions of important note where people are asked to shave.   I wonder why that is?   Those people are generally those who have some type of stewardship over me or others.  I wonder why that is?  Those people are generally those whose example I should follow.

 I prefer to follow the example of priesthood leaders as best I can.    YMMV.  I won't bat an eye if you drink coffee, soda, have a beer, or whatever.  I will speak up if it's asserted that those things are fine, or that you shouldn't ponder for personal revelation before doing something of the sort.  I don't care what mental gymnastics are used to say it's a "good thing".   If my wife suggests I should start drinking a beer with dinner I'm not going to start doing it because the prophet suggested I should listen to my wife.  Again, YMMV.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Grunt

[estradling75]

42 minutes ago, Grunt said:

 I prefer to follow the example of priesthood leaders as best I can.    YMMV.  I won't bat an eye if you drink coffee, soda, have a beer, or whatever.  I will speak up if it's asserted that those things are fine, or that you shouldn't ponder for personal revelation before doing something of the sort.  I don't care what mental gymnastics are used to say it's a "good thing".   If my wife suggests I should start drinking a beer with dinner I'm not going to start doing it because the prophet suggested I should listen to my wife.  Again, YMMV.

And there you go being offensively misleading again.  Time and time again the council of follow the word of wisdom (including no beer) has been given as general council.  To always be followed.  Whereas clean shaven is a narrowly focused council.  Your local leaders have told you to be clean shaven to have leadership roles... great then do so...  I have been in leadership roles in my ward also.  I have received no such instructions.  I would have gladly followed if I did.  Since I did not get that council...  I am following the council I did get to the best of my ability.  It is hugely  offensive (and very unchristian of you) to imply that I am using my wife as a pretext to disobey God.  Rather then assuming that both my wife and I are trying our best to follow God as much as we can

[The Folk Prophet]

43 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Then I have zero idea what you're all wound up about.

Well I'm not sure how I can be more clear than I've been. So I guess we'll leave it at that.

As for my being "wound up" and "snarky": As is common, I'm really significantly less emotional than I'm probably coming across. So I apologize for that. And I apologize for my other phrasing that was insensitive as well. I'm not that wound up, more just mildly huffed. But I'm clearly "in a mood". So I apologize for that and will try and do better.

 

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And there you go being offensively misleading again.  Time and time again the council of follow the word of wisdom (including no beer) has been given as general council.  To always be followed.  Whereas clean shaven is a narrowly focused council.  Your local leaders have told you to be clean shaven to have leadership roles... great then do so...  I have been in leadership roles in my ward also.  I have received no such instructions.  I would have gladly followed if I did.  Since I did not get that council...  I am following the council I did get to the best of my ability.  It is hugely  offensive (and very unchristian of you) to imply that I am using my wife as a pretext to disobey God.  Rather then assuming that both my wife and I are trying our best to follow God as much as we can

It's hugely offensive (and very unchristian of you) to assert I did something I didn't and deliver your unrighteous judgement of me.   I don't assume anything about you or your wife.  You do you.  It's not my business.   Nothing in my post was misleading or offensive.   Me?  I'll follow my priesthood leaders example, regardless whether or not they give me direct instruction.  YMMV.

[Grunt]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well I'm not sure how I can be more clear than I've been. So I guess we'll leave it at that.

As for my being "wound up" and "snarky": As is common, I'm really significantly less emotional than I'm probably coming across. So I apologize for that. And I apologize for my other phrasing that was insensitive as well. I'm not that wound up, more just mildly huffed. But I'm clearly "in a mood". So I apologize for that and will try and do better.

 

I think it's likely a miscommunication that if you and I were sitting around a table, or even on the phone,  would have a much different result.   I've said a million times that I don't express my thoughts well in print.  I'm sure the issue isn't with you, it's with my inability to put my feelings and thoughts down correctly.   I'm not sure how I can do better since I've tried several times.  Maybe I'll start asking my wife to read things before I hit "submit".

Edited November 23, 2023 by Grunt

[JohnsonJones]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:51 AM, estradling75 said:

And there you go being offensively misleading again.  Time and time again the council of follow the word of wisdom (including no beer) has been given as general council.  To always be followed.  Whereas clean shaven is a narrowly focused council.  Your local leaders have told you to be clean shaven to have leadership roles... great then do so...  I have been in leadership roles in my ward also.  I have received no such instructions.  I would have gladly followed if I did.  Since I did not get that council...  I am following the council I did get to the best of my ability.  It is hugely  offensive (and very unchristian of you) to imply that I am using my wife as a pretext to disobey God.  Rather then assuming that both my wife and I are trying our best to follow God as much as we can

I actually got instruction some years ago that certain Church leaders should be clean shaven.  I believe that policy has dropped and is no longer suggested these days.

On a completely separate note though, beards have a long heritage in the Church.  Now, I'm not sure the Aragorn look has ever been sported, but we have our choices of many other variations.

I personally would favor more of a Wilford Woodruff style.  I'm not so keen on the Brigham Young style but I saw a few men sporting it when I visited Utah last.  The Joseph F. Smith style seems like a pretty glorious beard if you can handle that much hair. 

More recently though it seems the David O'Mckay (no beard) style has been in vogue with our General Authorities.