Resurrection - not always a positive?

[laronius]

I just started reading the Pres Nelson biography by Sheri Dew. In it is referenced an experience his grandfather had of conversing with his own father who had previously passed away. Pres Nelson's grandfather asked about the reality of the resurrection. Pres Nelson's great-grandfather replied:

"Yes, my son, as true as can be. You cannot avoid being resurrected. It is just as natural for all to be resurrected as it is to be born and die again. No one can avoid being resurrected. There are many spirits in the spirit world who would to God, that there would be no Resurrection."

I thought this was really interesting because we always speak of the resurrection from the perspective of it being a blessing. A comforting thought when people pass away. But, assuming this conversation is reported accurately (which I can't see Pres Nelson relating this story if he didn't believe it himself), it appears that the resurrection is not universally looked on as a positive thing. That's a unique thought for me. 

[ZealoulyStriving]

30 minutes ago, laronius said:

I just started reading the Pres Nelson biography by Sheri Dew. In it is referenced an experience his grandfather had of conversing with his own father who had previously passed away. Pres Nelson's grandfather asked about the reality of the resurrection. Pres Nelson's great-grandfather replied:

"Yes, my son, as true as can be. You cannot avoid being resurrected. It is just as natural for all to be resurrected as it is to be born and die again. No one can avoid being resurrected. There are many spirits in the spirit world who would to God, that there would be no Resurrection."

I thought this was really interesting because we always speak of the resurrection from the perspective of it being a blessing. A comforting thought when people pass away. But, assuming this conversation is reported accurately (which I can't see Pres Nelson relating this story if he didn't believe it himself), it appears that the resurrection is not universally looked on as a positive thing. That's a unique thought for me. 

I think once you are resurrection happens your fate is sealed, so to speak. Some may be hoping for more time.

[laronius]

13 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I think once you are resurrection happens your fate is sealed, so to speak. Some may be hoping for more time.

This thought did cross my mind, that it's not just being resurrected they fear but judgment in general. 

Another thought I had concerns what the process of repentance looks like in the spirit world. Many of the temptations we face in this life are connected to our physical bodies. So might it be possible that resurrection is more of a process than immediate event? Where individuals must overcome addictions and learn to control themselves before they receive a glorified perfect body? The thought of having their previously unrestrained urgings restored to them could be a daunting prospect.

[Carborendum]

I'm having trouble believing this was real. 

Spirits in Prison are waiting in hell, basically.  And those in the Terrestrial and Telestial at least inherit a kingdom of glory even if it is not the Celestial.

Even for those cast into outer darkness, they're already in hell as it is. So, why would it be worse with a body?

[ZealoulyStriving]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Spirits in Prison are waiting in hell, basically

I disagree. In my reading of scripture and the Gospel Principles manual, Spirit Prison and Hell are different states. Spirit Prison is a place of learning and growth. Hell a a place reserved for the rebellious wicked to wait until resurrection. The outer darkness referred to in Alma is Hell, not Spirit Prison, IMHO. (Yes, I am aware of the footnotes. This wouldn't be the only place in which I believe they are not quite correct.)

[Carborendum]

27 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I disagree. In my reading of scripture and the Gospel Principles manual, Spirit Prison and Hell are different states. Spirit Prison is a place of learning and growth. Hell a a place reserved for the rebellious wicked to wait until resurrection. The outer darkness referred to in Alma is Hell, not Spirit Prison, IMHO. (Yes, I am aware of the footnotes. This wouldn't be the only place in which I believe they are not quite correct.)

D&C 76:106 disagrees with you.

Quote

These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Edited May 13 by Carborendum

[ZealoulyStriving]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

D&C 76:106 disagrees with you.

That is speaking of the worst of the worst that inherit Telestial Glory.

Here is what v. 73 says about honorable men that inherit Terrestrial Glory:

"73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;"

[ZealoulyStriving]

This is what the Gospel Principles manual teaches:

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ..."

[mikbone]

Commentary on

Moses 5:23 23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;

As far as Cain is concerned, the information given is definite that he became Perdition, and that Lucifer who is Satan, became subject to him. It appears that the reason Satan desired to have him was due to the fact that Cain had obtained a body of flesh and bones and therefore had superior power, and Satan was willing to accept and be obedient to him because of that condition. The natural conclusion is, therefore, that a devil with a body of flesh and bones has some power greater than one who was denied the physical body.  -  Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 2: 170.

I’m pretty sure that he meant flesh and blood instead of flesh and bone. Although if Cain is still alive, his body must have undergone some kind of change.

 

That being shared, you can’t please everyone.

It’s likely that many in spirit prison are unhappy with their state of affairs. And because they are not privy to their pre-mortal memories that have no recollection that they signed up for this. And the unknown is scary. They can’t feel physical pain now. Perhaps that is one thing they fear. 

 

A common question that I routinely use while interviewing ER patients is, “You did what?”

Edited May 13 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

That is speaking of the worst of the worst that inherit Telestial Glory.

Yes.  And that is what I'm talking about.  Who do you think the quote in the OP was referring to?

Additionally, it is called Spirit PRISON for a reason.  Yes, everywhere is a place of learning.  That doesn't mean it is pleasant.

It is conceivable that Spirit Prison has gradations of worst to not quite as bad.  But it is still a prison.

(D&C 138) If those righteous who were long awaiting the resurrection considered disembodiment a "bondage", it must not be all that pleasant even for the righteous in Paradise.  How much worse for the just men of the world who are in Prison?  And however "good" it is, why would it be worse than the GLORY of the Telestial Kingdom, "which surpasses all understanding"?

The only thing I can figure is that they realize that anything short of the Celestial will eventually feel like a prison of some sort (no matter how glorious).  And it isn't that they wish to remain disembodied.  It is that they wish there was simply "an end" (oblivion).

Edited May 13 by Carborendum

[Vort]

I have found it interesting and somewhat rewarding to ponder on the doctrine of the postmortal spirit world vis-à-vis the classic Dantean purgatory. Looking past the obvious differences, I am intrigued by the sometimes subtle, sometimes obvious doctrinal similarities I perceive. I wonder how much of it is me using Dante's poetic framework as a palimpsest and reading true doctrine (as I understand it) into that framework, and how much of it is Dante's spiritual sensitivity and sober-eyed observations of the human spirit in action enabling a sort of revelatory exposition in poetry of some fundamental truths of the nature of postmortal existence.

I know full well that not everyone has read Dante's works, especially Purgatory. I (or, I'm sure, others here) would be happy to explicate what parallels might be found between Dante's poetry and LDS doctrine, if there's any desire. For those that have some exposure to Dante, I trust that such parallels are obvious enough.

[ZealoulyStriving]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

I know full well that not everyone has read Dante's works, especially Purgatory. I (or, I'm sure, others here) would be happy to explicate what parallels might be found between Dante's poetry and LDS doctrine, if there's any desire

Take to the lectern maestro.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Take to the lectern maestro.

Dante's Comedia (modern Italian: La Divina Commedia, meaning The Divine Comedy*) is the poetic story of man's journey through life and death to find life again, a midlife journey from death and despair to everlasting life and bliss. Written between about 1306 and 1321 and set in the year 1300, it follows our everyman hero—the author himself, Dante Alighieri—on his guided tour through the afterlife. The work is structured as a long poem comprising three distinct books: Hell (L'inferno), Purgatory (Il purgatorio), and Heaven (Il cielo). Each book consists of 33 canti ("songs"). With one added introductory canto before the beginning of L'inferno proper, this extended poem has 100 total canti. It's a poetic work of significant length and substance, and IMO unmatched literary power.

*It's a "comedy" more or less because it's not a "tragedy": Things end on a happy note rather than in ruin and despair. The "divine" part was added much later to emphasize the spiritual, Godly nature of the work.

Lost on the road midway through his life—that is to say, at age 35—Dante comes upon the gate of Hell under a sign that menacingly warns, Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate ("Leave behind every hope, you who enter"). Passing through, Dante is guided through Hell by the Roman poet Virgil. Dante considered the ancient heathen poets to be the best men of their era, but since they were unbaptized, they of course had to dwell in Hell throughout eternity. These poets and other noble, virtuous pagans live in the first and highest of Hell's nine circles; along with unbaptized babies, they are those whose divine condemnation is lightest. They do not suffer the pains of damnation, but of course they are forever cut off from eternal life with God. Passing through each lower circle of Hell, Dante observes the increasingly horrific torture that the damned souls have invited upon themselves through their choices and actions, each circle more nightmarish than the last. But all the circles have one common feature: Each is devoid of all hope, just as the gate warned. These souls all live the torment that they have chosen, with no hope of redemption possible.

Exiting Hell at its lowest pit, climbing over Satan himself, Dante and Virgil ascend through the other side of the earth and come out on the borders of Purgatory. Virgil, who cannot set foot in Purgatory, bids Dante farewell and returns to his damnation. Dante is accompanied by his beloved and the object of all his mortal devotions, a woman whose name is Beatrice**. Beatrice serves as Dante's guide through Purgatory, and later through Paradise itself to the very throne of God.

**Beatrice was almost certainly a real woman, Beatrice Portinari, a Florentine noblewoman and wife of Simone de' Bardi. She was about a year younger than Dante himself and died at age 24 in 1290, about ten years before the setting of Dante's Comedia. Dante's proffered "love" for her was "untainted" (in the medieval mind) by physical passions, but is rather represented as some pure spiritual devotion. Doesn't make a lot of sense to the LDS way of thinking, but there you have it.

Purgatory, as the name suggests, is a place of purgation ("purging" is perhaps a more modern version of the word), where men's and women's sinful natures are burned out of them, sometimes literally. Each soul suffers the purgation that will eventually make him or her clean and fit for Paradise. These purgations are as inventive, and sometimes as horrific, as those tortures Dante encountered in Hell. But the salient difference is that Purgatory is a place of immense hope and happiness, despite the pain.

Heaven, the culmination of Dante's work, is an amazing poem. But for my money, I think I find Purgatory the most inspiring and insightful of the books.

******************************

I see significant parallels, in principle and feeling if not in actual realization, between the tortures of Dante's Hell and the sufferings borne by the wicked in the world of spirits. The difference, of course, is that in the real spirit world, more or less everyone will finally bend the knee to Jesus Christ and confess him as the Messiah, and will in the end be cleansed (one might say "purged") and will receive a divine kingdom of glory. While I know of no doctrine that teaches that such an experience as Dante observes in Purgatory actually occurs, I think the idea of being purged of sin and becoming worthy before God is absolutely a doctrine of the kingdom of God. As I stated before, I think the parallels are numerous and pretty obvious between Dante's poetic descriptions and the revealed truths about what we call, for lack of a better term, the spirit world.

Hope that helps. I think this general overview covers what I was trying to say. If you want specific examples, I or others can probably dredge some up.

Edited May 13 by Vort

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Dante's Comedia (modern Italian: La Divina Commedia, meaning The Divine Comedy*) is the poetic story of man's journey through life and death to find life again, a midlife journey from death and despair to everlasting life and bliss.

If you'll recall, Inferno has it that when Jesus was resurrected (et al) the gates of Hell were quite literally torn off of their hinges. 

I don't think even Dante himself truly understood the importance of that bit of symbolism. 

[CV75]

On 5/12/2024 at 7:53 PM, laronius said:

I just started reading the Pres Nelson biography by Sheri Dew. In it is referenced an experience his grandfather had of conversing with his own father who had previously passed away. Pres Nelson's grandfather asked about the reality of the resurrection. Pres Nelson's great-grandfather replied:

"Yes, my son, as true as can be. You cannot avoid being resurrected. It is just as natural for all to be resurrected as it is to be born and die again. No one can avoid being resurrected. There are many spirits in the spirit world who would to God, that there would be no Resurrection."

I thought this was really interesting because we always speak of the resurrection from the perspective of it being a blessing. A comforting thought when people pass away. But, assuming this conversation is reported accurately (which I can't see Pres Nelson relating this story if he didn't believe it himself), it appears that the resurrection is not universally looked on as a positive thing. That's a unique thought for me. 

From Mosiah 2:

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

I know of no doctrine that teaches that such an experience as Dante observes in Purgatory actually occurs, I think the idea of being purged of sin and becoming worthy before God is absolutely a doctrine of the kingdom of God.

I'm having trouble recalling the details, but I do remember that there was some statement about every man needing to go through such a purging process in the afterlife somewhere, sometime, some way.  The major point is that without Christ, none of that would matter.  With Christ, we are able to pay in some manner that would actually have some level of efficacy.

I'll have to see if I can find that quote.

And, BTW, thank you for the summary.  I've never read Dante's trilogy.  I'm currently trying to trudge through Don Quixote.  I've been wanting to read that for the past 20 years. And now I'm finding that it is utterly un-interesting.  With each (mis)adventure, I keep wondering what the point of this story is. Why on earth is it considered a classic?  I'm debating whether I'll read book 2 or not.

After I'm done, I'll tackle Dante because of some motivation I feel from your summary.  So, thank you.

Edited May 14 by Carborendum

[Jersey Boy]

On 5/12/2024 at 7:53 PM, laronius said:

I just started reading the Pres Nelson biography by Sheri Dew. In it is referenced an experience his grandfather had of conversing with his own father who had previously passed away. Pres Nelson's grandfather asked about the reality of the resurrection. Pres Nelson's great-grandfather replied:

"Yes, my son, as true as can be. You cannot avoid being resurrected. It is just as natural for all to be resurrected as it is to be born and die again. No one can avoid being resurrected. There are many spirits in the spirit world who would to God, that there would be no Resurrection."

I thought this was really interesting because we always speak of the resurrection from the perspective of it being a blessing. A comforting thought when people pass away. But, assuming this conversation is reported accurately (which I can't see Pres Nelson relating this story if he didn't believe it himself), it appears that the resurrection is not universally looked on as a positive thing. That's a unique thought for me. 

In the following verse, Alma the Younger explains why some fear the resurrection; the reason being that the sons of perdition would rather hide away forever from the presence of them Lord, in regions of spiritual darkness, rather than undergo resurrection and have to behold God’s holy face at the final judgement in heaven while they remain in their filthiness.

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. (Mosiah 27)

Edited May 22 by Jersey Boy

[Carborendum]

27 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

In the following verse, Alma the Younger explains why some fear the resurrection; the reason being that the sons of perdition would rather hide away forever from the presence of them Lord, in regions of spiritual darkness, rather than undergo resurrection and have to behold God’s holy face at the final judgement in heaven while they remain in their filthiness.

31 Yea, ever knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. (Mosiah 27)

Well, that is a completely different perspective.  

Instead of being afraid of the "state of being reunited with our bodies" this is talking about (for lack of a better word) the "ordinance" of resurrection which includes the pronouncement of the judgment of God.  So, it isn't "being resurrected" that they are afraid of.  It's what happens at the same time the event occurs.

Edited May 21 by Carborendum

[Traveler]

I believe I agree with @Jersey Boy and @Carborendum .  It is not the resurrection itself for which anyone would be disappointed (since we all shouted for joy over the announcement of the Plan of Salvation or Plan of Happiness).  It is the part of the resurrection where we present ourselves and the exercise of our agency before G-d to conclude our part in G-d’s plan.

As I understand, the resurrection and our judgement are one in the same in that we are resurrected to our glory that resulted from that judgement.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

22 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As I understand, the resurrection and our judgement are one in the same in that we are resurrected to our glory that resulted from that judgement.

Yes, we are resurrected to our final glory.  But I don't think that is what people are afraid of.  I'm only saying this from my own perspective.

If it were me?  I would probably have a decent idea of where I'm going to end up.  I can hope that the Lord will be a little more merciful than I tend to think about myself. But I am probably in the ballpark.  Thus, I'm pretty prepared for it.  So, that isn't something that would make me afraid.

What would make me afraid is having to stand before my Maker and recite to him all the things I have done.  I would have to recount all the opportunities I had to repent, but didn't.  I would admit that I had every advantage that so many others didn't have.  And I'd have to admit that my fate is what I know in my heart that I have chosen.  And it was all my fault for having chosen poorly.

But once that is done, I think it would be only a matter of time that I become resigned to my fate and just get used to it.  But that moment of judgment...  I know I would probably shrink from my Maker.

Edited May 21 by Carborendum

[Jersey Boy]

16 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe I agree with @Jersey Boy and @Carborendum .  It is not the resurrection itself for which anyone would be disappointed (since we all shouted for joy over the announcement of the Plan of Salvation or Plan of Happiness).  It is the part of the resurrection where we present ourselves and the exercise of our agency before G-d to conclude our part in G-d’s plan.

As I understand, the resurrection and our judgement are one in the same in that we are resurrected to our glory that resulted from that judgement.

 

The Traveler

And here are 2 more verses from the Book of Mormon that even more graphically reveal why those who remain “filthy still” at the time of the resurrection and final judgement will be filled with such terror at the mere thought of having to come face to face with the Lord:

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you. (Mormon 9)

[laronius]

6 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

In the following verse, Alma the Younger explains why some fear the resurrection; the reason being that the sons of perdition would rather hide away forever from the presence of them Lord, in regions of spiritual darkness, rather than undergo resurrection and have to behold God’s holy face at the final judgement in heaven while they remain in their filthiness.

31 Yea, ever knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. (Mosiah 27)

I had a similar thought along these lines, though technically it's not being resurrected that they fear. 

I have had an additional thought and it comes from something Jesus said of Judas Iscariot:

Matt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Being born guarantees being resurrected. Is this what Jesus meant? That for certain individuals being resurrected will not be a good thing? 

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I had a similar thought along these lines, though technically it's not being resurrected that they fear. 

I have had an additional thought and it comes from something Jesus said of Judas Iscariot:

Matt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Being born guarantees being resurrected. Is this what Jesus meant? That for certain individuals being resurrected will not be a good thing? 

The unsaved (meaning the sons of perdition) have great reason to fear the resurrection from the dead due to the fact that while they are dead and languishing in hell they are at least cut off from the immediate presence of God, and nothing brings more terror into the hearts of the sons of perdition than the thought of being brought out of hell and placed in the immediate presence of God through the resurrection. Why? Because as resurrected beings they are placed in a state wherein they will be able to experience the full brunt of the second death — or death of the spirit; for as Mormon testified,  when they see the glory of God the holiness of Jesus Christ it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon them. Simply put, to the unsaved the resurrection is the ultimate curse because for them it will be as if there were no redemption made. For the sons of perdition, being lifted up to the presence of God while in their filthy, unsaved state is a worse hell than being in hell.

16 Yea, behold, this death (of Christ) bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.

19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death. (Helaman 14)

Edited May 22 by Jersey Boy