D&C 1:13 "...sword is bathed in heaven..."

[zil2]

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D&C 1:13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.

Any thoughts on what this phrase "bathed in heaven" means?  I can make up theories as well as the next person, but in truth, the phrase doesn't really make sense to me and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.  Thanks!

[mikbone]

Could be a massive solar flare.  Gamma ray burst from a nearby star going supernova.  Lots of exciting possibilities!

[zil2]

Hooray for lacking footnotes. The phrase is also used in Isaiah 34:5, which gives us a lot of thought from other sects - should have thought to look for that sooner - but I did check the footnotes first - like they couldn't link the one place that uses the exact phrase!?

[MrShorty]

A quick internet search leads to Isaiah 34:5, where the phrase is also used. From Biblehub's commentary (note that many translations translate "bathed" from the KJV as drunk or even inebriated.) Seems consistent with how Joseph Smith is using the phrase here.

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When My sword
The phrase "My sword" is a metaphor for divine judgment and authority. In the Hebrew context, the sword often symbolizes God's power to execute justice. The imagery of a sword is prevalent throughout the Old Testament, representing God's ability to enforce His will and bring about His righteous decrees. The sword is not merely a weapon of war but a tool of divine retribution, emphasizing God's sovereignty over the nations.

has drunk its fill in the heavens
This phrase suggests a divine preparation or completion of judgment. The imagery of a sword "drinking" is vivid, indicating that God's judgment is thorough and complete. The mention of "the heavens" implies that this judgment is ordained and sanctioned by God Himself, transcending earthly realms. It reflects the idea that God's plans and purposes are established in the heavenly courts before they manifest on earth.

ETA: it appears you've already seen something like this.

Edited January 8 by MrShorty
too slow

[zil2]

Gotta run, but will return.  Saw that and more.  Might make for interesting discussion or at least a place to document the various interpretations...  More later.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Any thoughts on what this phrase "bathed in heaven" means?  I can make up theories as well as the next person, but in truth, the phrase doesn't really make sense to me and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.  Thanks!

If we simply forget about the words or meanings, etc. we can "feel" the meaning. 

 

But here is the logical path through it:

Isaiah34:5

The word for "bathe" means "to cause to be drunken" (with wine) in Hebrew.  It is usually a military term meaning no quarter shall be given.  The image is then re-framed with heavenly blood.

In other words it is a super fancy way of imagining Divine retribution.

Edited January 8 by Carborendum

[CV75]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Any thoughts on what this phrase "bathed in heaven" means?  I can make up theories as well as the next person, but in truth, the phrase doesn't really make sense to me and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.  Thanks!

I take it as a similar metaphor as "the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven." The sword represents the word of God, which is itself a symbol of Christ and His power, protection, authority, strength, courage, etc. "Bathed in heaven" means Christ brings everything in heaven to earth, or exaltation (and any other immortal kingdom) to mortals.

ETA: seeing the comments on Isaiah 34, justice and vengeance would be a couple of applications of divine authority, strength, power. The D&C refers to "the earth to tremble and to reel to and fro as a drunken man," which is a reasonable reaction for someone unable to handle the living waters that is coming upon them! We also have mercy, love and grace, and as the sword is yielded in one direction, it has its opposing effect as well.

Edited January 8 by CV75

[laronius]

While I acknowledge that there may be alternate translations of the word bathe, I feel like the Lord would not have used the word if wholely inaccurate. So if we take it at face value, the purpose of bathing is generally cleansing in nature. This may indicate that the sword, so often used for evil purposes, is in this instance a tool of righteousness. This would actually pair well with the alternate translation symbolizing the wrath of the Lord being both full and completely justified.

[zil2]

OK, I'm back.  "Sword" was never a problem - it's a common symbol for judgement, wrath of God, etc.  It's the "bathed in heaven" part that seemed strange to me.  Usually if you put sword and bathed in the same sentence, the sword is bathed in blood.  If we keep the same structure in play, "heaven" isn't really a substance in which something can be bathed...  Thus, the logical assumption is that "heaven" is the location of the bathing, but in that case, in what substance is the sword bathed?

As soon as I googled it and found Isaiah, I knew we were dealing with ancient Hebrew customs / idioms / whatevers.  From the wide variety of commentary on the Isaiah verses, we have the following, which all make sense to me (some more than others):

• The sword was prepared in heaven (indicates the judgement / punishment is coming from God / divinely sanctioned)
• The sword is "soaked" in the power of heaven (I rather like this one, regardless of whether it's what was intended)
• "bathed" in Hebrew suggests "saturated" or "filled", and in relation to a sword, it likely refers to being dipped into a liquid prior to sharpening; it might also refer to quenching (hardening) or another part of the forging process to brighten the metal or otherwise prepare it for use (this makes a lot of sense to me)
• One result suggested the sword was bathed in the blood of those killed by it, but that doesn't really match "bathed in heaven" - since any "blood" is going to come when the sword falls, not when it's prepared in heaven; one could try to argue "the blood of the saints" or even Christ's blood, I suppose; but this doesn't really seem like a good interpretation to me.
• There's this from bycommonconsent.com
• Alternate translations for "is bathed", like: "is drunken with fury" or "hath drunk to the full"  (Hmm, "my light saber is now fully charged and you will all die"  (I may have gotten carried away there).)
• Here's a link to blueletterbible.org with alternate translations of the Isaiah verse.  But since D&C 1 could have said whatever the Lord wanted it to say, I'm quite certain He meant for this phrase to appear as is.  I wonder if / how the early saints understood it.

I feel like these give me enough understanding to be comfortable with the phrase (as opposed to just understanding the overall meaning of the verse).

[zil2]

39 minutes ago, laronius said:

While I acknowledge that there may be alternate translations of the word bathe, I feel like the Lord would not have used the word if wholely inaccurate. So if we take it at face value, the purpose of bathing is generally cleansing in nature. This may indicate that the sword, so often used for evil purposes, is in this instance a tool of righteousness. This would actually pair well with the alternate translation symbolizing the wrath of the Lord being both full and completely justified.

Except this is the Lord's sword, so it was never used for evil purposes.  I think some of the other translations more likely.  The "bath" was part of the preparation process (they actually call the liquid into which metal is dipped for quenching a "bath").

[Carborendum]

14 minutes ago, zil2 said:

"my light saber is now fully charged and you will all die"

Yup. That's about right.

Like I said, any literal reading is meaningless.  It was meant to be read for feeling and imagery.

[Carborendum]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Except this is the Lord's sword, so it was never used for evil purposes.  I think some of the other translations more likely.  The "bath" was part of the preparation process (they actually call the liquid into which metal is dipped for quenching a "bath").

The Lord would use a phrase or saying that mankind had already been given to draw forth the same imagery.  So, when a phrase in the D&C mimics the phrase in Isaiah (especially Isaiah) it was meant for us to look for that other phrase and understand the depth of meaning.

[zil2]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Like I said, any literal reading is meaningless. 

I'm not so sure it is - not if "bathed" means "quenched" (as in, hardened - one of the last steps of forging; not quenched the way anger is quenched).

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The Lord would use a phrase or saying that mankind had already been given to draw forth the same imagery.  So, when a phrase in the D&C mimics the phrase in Isaiah (especially Isaiah) it was meant for us to look for that other phrase and understand the depth of meaning.

Agreed.  And some of the possible Hebrew interpretations include those parts of sword-making that involve dipping (like quenching and sharpening).

In other words, I think there are multiple meanings to the one phrase, and I suspect Isaiah's people would have understood all the meanings - and may well have understood the meaning described in that ByCommonConsent article (easier to just point people there than to summarize it - it's already pretty short).

[mordorbund]

On 1/8/2025 at 6:40 PM, zil2 said:

wonder if / how the early saints understood it.

Ngram says it’s most popular usage is from the saints themselves quoting this passage, but it does turn up in a collection of letters back in 1709. Otherwise it looks to be in Bible commentaries.

[zil2]

24 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Ngram says it’s most popular usage is from the saints themselves quoting this passage, but it does turn up in a collection of letters back in 1709. Otherwise it looks to be in Bible commentaries.

And it's barely been used at all since the 1980s!  I think it's time for a comeback!

[askandanswer]

It's not immediately clear to me why the Lord would use such vague and imprecise language, capable of multiple meanings, all of which seem to carry some degree of uncertainty. At first glance, it doesn't strike me as the most effective means of communication. It's possible that the only people likely to clearly understand this phrase are those who have made the same sort of effort as those who have participated in this discussion, and when compared with all those who read the phrase, that is likely to be a very small number. I kind of like the idea of say what you mean and mean what you say - its clearer, more precise, and leaves less room for misunderstanding. This style of language - sword is bathed in heaven - gives weight to the arguments of the clerics in the middle ages who claimed that interpretation of the bible should be left to trained specialists. 

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

It's not immediately clear to me why the Lord would use such vague and imprecise language, capable of multiple meanings, all of which seem to carry some degree of uncertainty. At first glance, it doesn't strike me as the most effective means of communication. It's possible that the only people likely to clearly understand this phrase are those who have made the same sort of effort as those who have participated in this discussion, and when compared with all those who read the phrase, that is likely to be a very small number. I kind of like the idea of say what you mean and mean what you say - its clearer, more precise, and leaves less room for misunderstanding. This style of language - sword is bathed in heaven - gives weight to the arguments of the clerics in the middle ages who claimed that interpretation of the bible should be left to trained specialists. 

This:

On 1/8/2025 at 4:56 PM, Carborendum said:

The Lord would use a phrase or saying that mankind had already been given to draw forth the same imagery.  So, when a phrase in the D&C mimics the phrase in Isaiah (especially Isaiah) it was meant for us to look for that other phrase and understand the depth of meaning.

Later in the section, the Lord uses more language like that in Isaiah 34:5.  I believe the Lord wanted to point us there and then leave it to those who were willing to put forth the effort to gain understanding through revelation (see D&C 1:34).

[askandanswer]

On 1/11/2025 at 3:02 PM, zil2 said:

This:

Later in the section, the Lord uses more language like that in Isaiah 34:5.  I believe the Lord wanted to point us there and then leave it to those who were willing to put forth the effort to gain understanding through revelation (see D&C 1:34).

This sounds something like:

I God, am talking to you in English, but I'm not going to tell you clearly what I mean. So that you can understand what I mean, I want you to refer back to the 200 year old English translation of what I said to a prophet in Hebrew more than 2,500 years ago, and which has since been translated multiple times with varying degrees of accuracy.

If achieving understanding and clarity are the purposes of your communication, this seems to be an odd way to achieve it.

Of course, these might not have been the purposes of this particular part of the communication - perhaps you're right and the intention of this communication was to prompt those who read this phrase to go away and seek revelation as to what it means.  

Edited January 12 by askandanswer

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This sounds something like:

I God, and talking to you in English, but I'm not going to tell you clearly what I mean. So that you can understand what I mean, I want you to refer back to the 200 year old English translation of what I said to a prophet in Hebrew more than 2,500 years ago, and which has since been translated multiple times with varying degrees of accuracy.

If achieving understanding and clarity are the purposes of your communication, this seems to be an odd way to achieve it.

Of course, these might not have been the purposes of this particular part of the communication - perhaps you're right and the intention of this communication was to prompt those who read this phrase to go away and seek revelation as to what it means.  

It isn't as filtered as you think.  And we'd have to do that no matter what.  Simply having the triple combination filtered through an early 1800s lens makes it somewhat difficult for us to understand some things.  But if we really want to understand, then we need to "search the scriptures" including what the words actually mean.

Consider how long it was between the Psalms and when Jesus spoke the words on the cross.  Nearly 1000 years.  The entire language hadn't even been spoken for over 500 years.  Yet he only spoke a few words of that psalm to "point to" that scripture.

A friend who was a convert decided that they would be vegetarians for most of the year until winter.  I had to explain to him what the word "only" meant per the 1828 dictionary.  The whole family had an ah-hah moment.  Prior to that, the children were on the slightly malnourished side.

Edited January 11 by Carborendum

[zil2]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Of course, these might not have been the purposes of this particular part of the communication - perhaps you're right and the intention of this communication was to prompt those who read this phrase to go away and seek revelation as to what it means.  

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Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

JST: For whosoever receiveth, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever continueth not to receive, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

To those who believe in Christ and ask for understanding, he gives it (and often speaks plainly, as in the Book of Mormon and D&C, and as in the NT when the disciples would ask Him to explain a parable).  But to those who harden their hearts, he speaks in parables (without the explanation).  In this way, those who are willing to seek understanding can receive it through Him, and those who refuse to believe or ask are not condemned (or blessed) by understanding that they would reject anyway.

And I think there's also an element of simply wanting the connection between dispensations and to show fulfillment of prophecy, so He quotes Isaiah to us and to the people in the Book of Mormon.

[mikbone]

I could be a comet.  Everyone loves a comet.

This image clearly displays both tails. The top is from the sun heating the comet and releasing dust and water vapor.  The pretty blue one is the ionic tail from the solar wind that ionizes the gas.

So pretty yet deadly.

[zil2]

This thread cannot be complete without a sword bathed in heaven:

[Vort]

The sword is attempting modesty by covering his blood channels.

[zil2]

36 minutes ago, Vort said:

The sword is attempting modesty by covering his blood channels.

Exactly!