Rough Stone Rolling

[Vort]

2 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Would it surprise anyone that I celebrate Halloween?  I have a TR too and was in a session last Friday.

I'm telling your bishop.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Sure.  I celebrate Halloween also.  I don't have an issue with those who are stricter in their beliefs than I am.

If it's just belief...sure. When it's posted formally on a website and preached as if it's a higher, more pure way than all the other plebs... you know, all those Satan worshipping members that fill the ranks of the church.......

Hmm...... by the rancor in my tone (and heart), apparently, I just have a problem with it. Even if it's just a belief. How can anyone reasonably believe that way? Putting aside that it's SO insulting to other members (which being insulted isn't really the issue I have), it's the thought process that someone can have thinking that engaging in something that almost every faithful member engages in is Satanic and evil.

Now I have to repent for said rancor.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I'm telling your bishop.

Oh believe me he knows...as does my SP!

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, mirkwood said:

Oh believe me he knows...as does my SP!

Shocking. It's not like you wear it on your sleeve or anything.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If it's just belief...sure. When it's posted formally on a website and preached as if it's a higher, more pure way than all the other plebs... you know, all those Satan worshipping members that fill the ranks of the church.......

Hmm...... by the rancor in my tone (and heart), apparently, I just have a problem with it. Even if it's just a belief. How can anyone reasonably believe that way? Putting aside that it's SO insulting to other members (which being insulted isn't really the issue I have), it's the thought process that someone can have thinking that engaging in something that almost every faithful member engages in is Satanic and evil.

Now I have to repent for said rancor.

We could also bring up the caffeine commandment too...that will really get things going...

[The Folk Prophet]

Just now, mirkwood said:

We could also bring up the caffeine commandment too...that will really get things going...

Well now...I cannot respond to that in any way but agreement without becoming a major hypocrite.

That being said, I believe I am, at times, bending the Word of Wisdom somewhat in my usage. Great googly moogly I use a lot of caffeine!

But we have been counselled to not use mind or mood altering substances...so the argument really comes down to whether caffeine counts in that. Hmm. I suppose we have been counselled to not engage in Satanism too...so the argument really comes down to whether Halloween counts in that.

So the question is then, are these two ideas equivalent: 1. We have been counselled to not use mind/mood altering substances. Caffeine counts. We shouldn't use it and, 2. We have been counselled to not worship Satan. Halloween counts. We shouldn't celebrate it.

In my mind the arguments don't even come close to being the same, even though there are similarities.

Caffeine is clearly (to my thinking) a mind/mood altering substance that should realistically be used medicinally and not recreationally.* Halloween is clearly (to my thinking) not Satanic.

That being said...there are measures. I mean eating food of any sort is a mood, mind altering substance. So where's the line? Marijuana's easy. A sandwich is easy the other way. But caffeine sits somewhere in the gray that, clearly, poses a challenge in the decision making paradigm. Well, at least in my mind it does.

Hmm.

Or I guess what I'm saying...whenever someone's suggests in church that faithful members shouldn't use caffeine it's never really bothered me. I kind of think...yeah...I probably ought to not. But the no Halloween thing I roll my eyes at. 

*on a side note, I self medicate my A.D.D. with caffeine. But that's a tricky idea that I'm not always comfortable with. And despite the fact that I have that theoretical (and perhaps poor) excuse, I use it recreationally because it feels good. And that's not good. Or...does it make me feel normal and help me focus....and I just think it "feels good" because I feel so distracted and unmotivated otherwise?

[I Forgave You Yesterday]

RSR refined my testimony in some ways while clarifying some spiritual pings I have had in the past regarding the more sterilized version of church history.

I am a child of the teaching that no prophet can lead the church astray, for God will take him before this happens, which begs the question; Which of the modern day prophets was about to lead us astray but was taken by God before it happened? According to this teaching, all modern day prophets are potential suspects. I mean, how would be know if a prophets death was just age related verses being removed by God. As you can see, this teaching can not be confirmed as a truth, it can only be believed. I tend to believe that not all prophets are A grade. There are some B grade prophets, C grade prophets and if the Old Testament is correct, we even have the potential for some D and F grade prophets as well. I think the question for me has often been, to what degree should I expect to see and tolerate men's fingerprints on God's church. I wouldn't expect this to be 0% but it should be something less than 100% as well. I have often wondered if there is a tipping point in all of this? Is it possible that as the church starts to operate according to good business practices, administrative policy and legal directives more than revelation that there are too many of our fingerprints on HIS church. Maybe God removing a prophet has more to do with this tipping point than a specific doctrine that attempts to lead everyone astray. Just a thought.

RSR should be mandatory reading for every member along with Mormonism in Transition and Things in Heaven and Earth (Thomas Alexander).

[zil2]

Welcome to ThirdHour, @I Forgave You Yesterday!  I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, I Forgave You Yesterday said:

RSR refined my testimony in some ways while clarifying some spiritual pings I have had in the past regarding the more sterilized version of church history.

I am a child of the teaching that no prophet can lead the church astray, for God will take him before this happens, which begs the question; Which of the modern day prophets was about to lead us astray but was taken by God before it happened? According to this teaching, all modern day prophets are potential suspects. I mean, how would be know if a prophets death was just age related verses being removed by God. As you can see, this teaching can not be confirmed as a truth, it can only be believed. I tend to believe that not all prophets are A grade. There are some B grade prophets, C grade prophets and if the Old Testament is correct, we even have the potential for some D and F grade prophets as well. I think the question for me has often been, to what degree should I expect to see and tolerate men's fingerprints on God's church. I wouldn't expect this to be 0% but it should be something less than 100% as well. I have often wondered if there is a tipping point in all of this? Is it possible that as the church starts to operate according to good business practices, administrative policy and legal directives more than revelation that there are too many of our fingerprints on HIS church. Maybe God removing a prophet has more to do with this tipping point than a specific doctrine that attempts to lead everyone astray. Just a thought.

RSR should be mandatory reading for every member along with Mormonism in Transition and Things in Heaven and Earth (Thomas Alexander).

Welcome to the forum.

In a personal conversation with an Apostle (Elder Hugh B. Brown) – I asked the question: “Should we sustain and support any priesthood leader we know to be wrong?”  The answer I was given was: “You should support and sustain your priesthood leaders, especially if they are wrong – because they need your support and sustaining influence more then, than at any other time.”   

I believe that rather than attempting to determine if any leader is grade A, B, C, D or F – the wise Latter-day Saint will determine for themselves if they are Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial.   I have had personal conversations with baptized Saints that have listened carefully to the prophets and have been led down strange paths that they found appealing.

I have had personal conversations with baptized Saints that have listened to the prophets and have struggled with questions – turning to fasting and prayer - who have been led down a path drawing them closer to the Messiah and his chosen and ordained servants.

I believe that reference you are making is all about advice to members to reconcile themselves to G-d and leave it up to G-d to reconcile what he will with his chosen servants.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

19 hours ago, I Forgave You Yesterday said:

I think the question for me has often been, to what degree should I expect to see and tolerate men's fingerprints on God's church. I wouldn't expect this to be 0% but it should be something less than 100% as well.

That's a good way to visualize things.  I suppose as long as the % I see is "higher than I see in the general population", I'm good.

 

My wife sometimes has the gift of brevity.  Here's some wisdom that applies to this situation, and countless others:

"I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man."

She's always happy to hear good things from humans.  At the same time, she is rarely disappointed, or even surprised, at the crap she hears about what humans do.  Even when they're called and set apart and sustained and foreordained and all that.

At the end of the day, I'm LDS because I believe God wants me to be.  Undeniable spiritual confirmations and witnessed miracles vs. quitting because humans try hard but sometimes fall short?  I've picked my side.

Edited October 14, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[zil2]

37 minutes ago, Traveler said:

grade A, B, C, D or F

In other news...  Does anyone else feel bad for the letter E?  Excluded from its rightful place, pushed aside and forgotten, dragged out only when someone needs a sarcastic "E for effort"...  Alas, poor E.  No wonder it trails along behind so many words, hoping to be seen.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Vort]

43 minutes ago, zil2 said:

In other news...  Does anyone else feel bad for the letter E?  Excluded from its rightful place, pushed aside and forgotten, dragged out only when someone needs a sarcastic "E for effort"...  Alas, poor E.  No wonder it trails along behind so many words, hoping to be seen.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

BYU gives E's.

[zil2]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

BYU gives E's.

They (the Es) must all flock there in relief that someone wants them.

[laronius]

The fallibility of prophets concern is used a lot like the argument of institutional racism. It's used to cast doubt without having to actually provide specific proof. It would be far more productive to address specific concerns when they arise. And when I say address I mean take it to the Lord in prayer. No, prophets are not perfect but the process is. 

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

They (the Es) must all flock there in relief that someone wants them.

The more I ponder this – I am beginning to think that “E’s” are the highest and most valued grades that G-d gives to his students (disciples).

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The more I ponder this – I am beginning to think that “E’s” are the highest and most valued grades that G-d gives to his students (disciples).

In my school career, whenever I got an E (or E equivalent), I never had any teacher ever say "well done thou good and faithful student"...

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, laronius said:

The fallibility of prophets concern is used a lot like the argument of institutional racism. It's used to cast doubt without having to actually provide specific proof. It would be far more productive to address specific concerns when they arise. And when I say address I mean take it to the Lord in prayer. No, prophets are not perfect but the process is. 

As we scrutinize even Joseph Smith – his involvement in the failure of the Kirkland Safety Society was a sorry blunder.  Perhaps not as bad as the lost pages of the Book of Mormon.  But the effect on the early Church’s leadership was devastating.  It was the single reason that half the apostles and two counselors of the first presidency left the Church and mounted up the opposition to Joseph Smith and prosecutions against the Church in general.

I have pondered that if we could go back in time and meet Jesus personally, as he gathered and thought his disciples – that, like the Scribes and Pharisees, we would see sufficient flaws from what we believe of Christ, that we would discount him as the Messiah.  Obviously, such a trip in time is not possible.  Never-the-less, I think that often we get so wrapped up in worldly expectations and perceptions that we cannot see a forest because of all the trees.  

The whole reason that those that gathered by the Dead Sea and left us the great treasure of scrolls was to welcome the Messiah.  And yet not one humble dedicated priest showed up when Jesus was born – unless they were the shepherds watching over the sacred flocks in the wilderness.  But if they were – why did they not remain faithful and become the foundation of the New Testament?  And yet there was a schism in their organization at the time. 

The sad truth of mortality is that we do not know what we don’t know.

 

The Traveler  

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

In my school career, whenever I got an E (or E equivalent), I never had any teacher ever say "well done thou good and faithful student"...

Just wondering – Considering a test of knowledge of scripture at the time of Christ – Who do you think was most likely to get an “A”?  Scribes and Pharisees”?  Who would most likely get an “F”?  Publicans, sinners and tax collectors?

I like the idea of effort in applying scripture through effort over the ability of memorizing scripture (including chapter and verse).

 

The Traveler  

[Anddenex]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have pondered that if we could go back in time and meet Jesus personally, as he gathered and thought his disciples – that, like the Scribes and Pharisees, we would see sufficient flaws from what we believe of Christ, that we would discount him as the Messiah.

This is an idea I have pondered, and each time I ponder this type of thought I keep coming to the same verse of scripture and the same thought. John 15: 20,

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

The sons and daughters of God who myopically focus on the fallibility of prophets, and constantly use this as a way of disobedience or enmity would have done the same with their Lord. There's a difference between understanding fallibility and being consumed by fallibility. Those consumed would have seen an "imperfect" Savior.

[zil2]

Long time no see, @Anddenex!  Nice to see you back.

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This is an idea I have pondered, and each time I ponder this type of thought I keep coming to the same verse of scripture and the same thought. John 15: 20,

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."

The sons and daughters of God who myopically focus on the fallibility of prophets, and constantly use this as a way of disobedience or enmity would have done the same with their Lord. There's a difference between understanding fallibility and being consumed by fallibility. Those consumed would have seen an "imperfect" Savior.

Jesus referred to his followers as disciples.  The word disciple has the same roots as the word discipline.  I have always found those that have difficulty in following leaders of covenant is because they have difficulty with discipline.  

It seems to me that there is a trend to think others ought to be disciplined, just not them - that are deserving of exception for a variety of reasons.  I think this is part of what D&C 121 is referencing when it talks about kicking against the pricks.   In essence, holding others to account that they refuse to account for themselves.  

I do not believe that anything of value can be accomplished without some level of discipline – another word for discipline is structure.  I often hear people say they believe in G-d and religion but that they do not believe in structure or religious structure.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not believe that anything of value can be accomplished without some level of discipline

Amen to that.