Transgender


GaySaint
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It really is quite perplexing isn't it.

I dont know what to thinka ctually. If a pre op male was to seek dating another member who do they date a male or female? If they date a male it is gay since the genitalia is the same and if they date a woman then the body is the same, only benefit to the woman is that the pre op can get the woman pregnant thus naturally being able to have children. But this is all assuming that transgenders can date, and who they can date depending if its based on their outer appearence or their actual sex.

Then it is the story of your hermaphrodite friend. She was brung into the world without a choice so I can see why her desicion to choose who to marry and such was made: but if she still had both her genitialia intect it wouldv'e been quite difficult, because he wouldv'e been both sexes at the same time. Sp who would a hermaphrodite seek to marry a male or female, perhaps neither?

Only answerable logic to this would be for the transgender to only date other transgenders opposite of their medical sex as then the complexity kindv'e cancels out, and thats very unfair and not to mention descriminating toward transgenders.

I understand now why this si so complex. I know it is a very tough issue but the adversary seeks to seperate men by confusion of whats right and wrong, especially when it coms to sexual identity, which is why today we have so many confsed men and women who decide to be gay. I wish the church would make a direct staement to transgenders in the church because right now, though there is few, transgenders are in a grey area.

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I think why the church has not come out and made a formal statement(other then what is in the bishops hand book); every case is different. Myself being a male to female transgender, I have decided not to transition. To attempt to live out my life in the body my heavenly father gave me. And everyone is different. Me as a transgender I am attracted to females. There are other male to female who are attracted to males. And the same is for female to male transgender. Then you have people who you called hermaphrodite (the proper term is intersexes). There are many other variations that I can not get into. My point is that the church could not make an umbrella statement that could take in all the different possibilities that there are associated with being transgender. That is why the church handles every case differently. So the lord can help those affected based on their needs.

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Thank you for your perspective and experience Peragon, knowing a little of your story is humbling and compassion promoting.

The topic generally is way over my head to be giving any guidence but I looked in the CHI #1 after seeing this thread. In every case listed (that I could find) about transgender issues the instructions directed authorities to turn to the Office of the First Presidency. However, answers already given about temple marriage and priesthood ordination being withheld is correct.

Even in the case of an investigator guilty of murder, who served their sentence in full, authorities are directed to turn to the Office of the First Presidency before baptism.

I appreciate the 'consistency' the First Presidency would give considering the variences that could occur if it was up to local authorities only. Either way, my opinion is neither here nor there. All I can do is be accepting and a blessing to those I serve no matter their circumstances.

Edited by Magen_Avot
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Personally I think the church is just wrong on this. They were wrong about interacial marraige and they will be wrong about this as well. Hopefully one day the church will recieve some much needed revelation on the topic. I would imagine that revelation won't come until the membership is ready.

Don't you just love twenty-something know-it-alls? I am SO glad there are people around to put the Church and its leaders back in their place.

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I'm sure that revelation will come along at about the same time as the general "free love" revelation. All these rules holding us back. . .

Is that when the song "Love the one you're with" is added to the hymnbook?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Personally I think the church is just wrong on this. They were wrong about interacial marraige and they will be wrong about this as well. Hopefully one day the church will recieve some much needed revelation on the topic. I would imagine that revelation won't come until the membership is ready.

Despite the rude responses you got for this comment about being a know it all 20 year old, I think you may be right. They changed their minds about interracial marriage, so why could they not change their minds about this?

There were probably many people that said they would leave the church if blacks ever received the priesthood, so go ahead and mock away.

And oh by the way, I'm a little older than 20.

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Don't you just love twenty-something know-it-alls?

Yes sir! I love the twenty-something know-it-alls just as much as the thirty-someting know-it-alls, the forty-someting know-it-alls, fifty-someting know-it-alls, sixty-someting know-it-alls, seventy-someting know-it-alls, eighty-someting know-it-alls.....

:rolleyes:

-RM

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Why does a person considering such an operation care what the LDS church position is?

If they are not members of the church then I am sure it does not matter. But for my self it does matter. It takes faith and the knowledge that my heavenly father knows what’s best for me. I can not speak for others, for every case is different, and they see things differently. But for myself; I love my heavenly father, and want to do his will. I know this is a trial given to me. It is the only thing strong enough to test me sufficiently that I might return to the presence of my heavenly father. So I am attempting to live out my life in the body that I was given, and pray that my faith is strong enough to do my fathers will.

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Yes sir! I love the twenty-something know-it-alls just as much as the thirty-someting know-it-alls, the forty-someting know-it-alls, fifty-someting know-it-alls, sixty-someting know-it-alls, seventy-someting know-it-alls, eighty-someting know-it-alls.....

:rolleyes:

-RM

I don't know many forty-plus know-it-alls. Besides RMGuy, I mean.

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  • 4 weeks later...

[mod comments removed]

As one who had been in the depths of despair and suicidal, (I am now not, so don't call the police to help me) even a small negative comment can make the difference between life and death for that person. And it doesn't have to be the person that is chatting with you. It can be another person who is just browsing through the chat space.

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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[mod comments removed]

As one who had been in the depths of despair and suicidal, (I am now not, so don't call the police to help me) even a small negative comment can make the difference between life and death for that person. And it doesn't have to be the person that is chatting with you. It can be another person who is just browsing through the chat space.

:oHate to tell you this, but telling a mod what to do is on the list of forbidden actions on this forum. Like the 8th deadly sin. ;)

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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Gender is an eternal characteristic. I see a person who wants/has had a transgender operation as being sort of like Jonah in that the person is running away from the role God assigned him/her in this world.

This is to something I never encountered as a Bishop or member of the Stake Presidency. Those days are long past, and some things are done a little differently today.

It's something I would have sought guidance by prayer. And from a higher ecclesiastical authority.

Shooting from the hip--without the guidance of the HG--I'd say I'd have excommunicated a member having a transgender operation and would have required the operation to be reversed before allowing the person to be rebaptized. That’s the only way I can see that a person could be truly repentant. For all I know I might have required the person to get a reversal operation or be excommunicated.

Had a person joined the church after a transgender operation I don’t think I’d have extended the person a calling. Again, shooting from the hip, without the operation being reversed I don’t see how I could have concluded the person desired to live in harmony with God by obeying his will.

Had I been the person conducting the baptismal interview I would probably have required the person to get an operation reversing the transgender operation to be baptized. Had I found a member of my ward had committed willful murder and then been baptized I would probably excommunicate him/her concluding it wasn't possible for the person to have repented of his/her deed and thus was unable to be a member of the Church. Same sort of reasoning with a person who is unrepentant following a transgerder operation.

As I said, these really aren't questions that can be answered in the abstract. The above, of course, is sort of an "Old Testament, letter of the law" conclusion that the Spirit might modify.

:eek:

I don't know if you realise how hard and painful, and COSTLY and time-taking it is for someone who's had a sexual reassignment to get a reversal, not to mention the emotional toll on the person getting the reversal done.

Imagine how hard it is for anyone, just anyone in general to come into the church and get baptised in the first place. There is so much change, so many expectations that you've never had before, so many things that are so different, it can be quite overwhelming at times. Imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone facing not only to have to face people judge them every day and struggling with feeling like in the wrong body (or after sexual reassignment, struggling with the continuing discrimination and bullying by peers because of having undergone a sexual reassignment) to not only have to deal with the day to day issues that come with being transgender/gender-confusion but also having to face the stringent demands that are put before them before they could have the holy-ghost as a gift or have all their sins washed away?

I am greatful to Heavenly Father that the church isn't so stringent. I am greatful to Heavenly Father that those who are straight, gay, male, female, genderless, asexual, rich or poor can be baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. I have some great friends who are transgendered, and I can tell you, that the pain they feel before sexual reassignment of being in the wrong body from when they are little children, is immense. It is not as easy as many people assume and I don't believe as black and white as many would imagine.

Edited by FunnySheila
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A moderator should ...

Hi OnAJourney. Please visit the Site Rules (you can find the link on the top of this page). It's not the 8th deadly sin, but it is site rule #6.

Welcome to the forums.

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I haven't posted in this because it makes me a little uneasy. I grew up an artsy type and that meant I had a lot of different types around me - Being a film student means you get all sorts. Gay, straight, everything in between.

Normally, I say to live and let live. While I believe one thing, I can point to nothing that is absolute proof that what I'm saying is correct.

Transgendered individuals, however, I feel are a different matter. Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a known derangement whereby someone has a desire to remove an otherwise healthy limb because they perceive themselves as being people with one arm, or one leg, or no arms and no legs.

We do not allow Doctors to remove these limbs because these people require assistance and can live healthy and happy lives. The desire to maim oneself is something we recognize needs to be changed.

Statistically, post-op transgendered individuals have an incredibly high rate of suicide:

Transgender Americans face high suicide risk - Health - Health care - More health news - msnbc.com

41 percent of post ops attempted suicide. That's so high that we have to recognize that something is wrong.

I feel that, until we can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what causes gender identity issues, we should treat it like we would Body Integrity Identity disorder. It's sad, and it's certainly not politically correct, but if we treat those with the desire to lop off a limb in one way and those who desire to lop off their genitalia in another, we're clearly wrong one way or the other. I feel we should err on the side of caution and provide help rather than potentially feeding in to a self-destructive delusion. We really don't know where it comes from. Until we do, we are potentially ruining lives no matter what we choose. My instinct is to choose the one that doesn't involve maiming genitalia.

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Interesting FunkyTown, never heard of that Body disorder thing, thought people only usually wanted to cut off their body parts as part of psychosis. Will have to research it, sounds interesting, thanks for bringing to our attention! :)

Isn't suicide rates high in those pre-op too though?

A friend of mine (whom I haven't spoken to in over a year due to her moving interstate), was suicidal pre-op, and was suicidal post-op but not as much.

I don't know, it is so hard seeing people in so much angst. Especially when they suffer from when they are little, convinced they are in the wrong body or try to mutilate genitalia etc...

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Sounds like the suicide issue is something that needs more attention. That is a horribly high stat. What ever the issue is that causes a person to not feel right in the body they have, it seems it might be more important to work on acceptance, not of the 'wrong' body but of themselves as important no matter what body 'style' they wear. Apparently it is not so much a problem with the body itself but with inner acceptance or there would not be so dramatic a suicide rate post operation.

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Yeah, the suicide thing should be looked at more closely. We should ask the question of why is the post-op suicide rate so high? Also, is the pre-op suicide rate any lower? I guess what I'm asking is, is there a causal relationship between the operation and suicide, or would they be at high risk even if they didn't get the operation? Perhaps society pressures related to not fitting in having something to do with it? Just questions--I don't claim to have the answers.

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