Doubtful

[Bini]

I rarely, if ever, make threads like this but I feel comfortable enough here to ask for some helpful and encouraging input.

When I joined this site a few years back I wandered in here not expecting much at all. I was inactive and had no real intentions of returning to the gospel - not because I was angry - because I thought I had found peace and was fine without it. I was fine, I did have peace in my life, but something was still missing. As I found myself participating more in the forum and its discussions, I also found myself back at church within a year or so, and I was much less bitter regarding certain gospel topics and principals overall. My husband who has been inactive for many many years, was showing a genuine interest in returning to the gospel and had quit drinking, among many other lifestyle changes. We both did. Then we had our daughter, who is in the terrible two stage now, and we knew we wanted to offer her more than just: Be a good person and that's enough. We wanted her to know that she has a purpose here in this life and that the Lord is always there to guide her - no matter how often she falls or how far she has fallen. That is something not everyone knows or truly understands.

Lately I've found myself doing some serious doubting. No, I don't read anti-Mormon literature nor am I lost to a hidden addiction that is leading me astray. I'm just finding that I'm contemplating some things that have never really bothered me in the past but do now. They're not even 'big deal' things but they're enough that get the wheels turning and make me wonder..

I won't cover everything but I'll start with this one. I suppose it's a common one that many struggle with. I can accept but do not believe that Adam and Eve ever existed. I know that sounds like a contradicting statement and maybe it is but let me try to clarify. If the gospel says they existed - I can accept that - but when I ask myself whether it's true I get an immediate "no" answer. There really is no reason for me to say this but I'll say it anyway, I'm no religious scholar or scientist but why can't we have come from the BIG BANG evolution and it still be from the hand of God? Why is it one or the other? I'm finding myself very sceptical about many if not all the stories in the Bible. I know that some things have been proven to some degree by archaeologists but even those findings have their sceptics.

This last year has also been tough. My uncle tried to kill himself and a good friend of my husband's did - he shot himself at his home - and it really messed us up. At first I told my husband that his friend (who had problems but wouldn't hurt a fly) was in the Lord's hands and that everything would be okay. He found little comfort from this but agreed. As time has gone on, I've often wondered whether I truly believed what I told him. Is he really with the Lord? Or has the life force that was in his body just simply returned to the universe? He left behind an ex-wife and two young children under 5.

I've prayed about this stuff. Obviously I haven't come upon a satisfying answer. I've tried to read the scriptures and the BOM but (and I know many of you are shaking your heads) I feel less connected when doing this. I'll read a couple chapters and my mind just doesn't compute it. It just hasn't been a successful way for me to come unto Christ. I do much better reading Ensign articles and listening/watching conference talks in comparison.

Can I even say that I believe in the gospel if I've got these hang-ups?

[Vort]

Yes, you believe. You don't know everything yet, but you believe. There is nothing wrong or shameful about believing. Usually, you must believe before you can get greater knowledge. Please reread or relisten to Elder Holland's General Conference address from last April. He talks in-depth about this very issue. Here's a link: “Lord, I Believe†- general-conference

Your issue is that you want testimony without self-deception. This is a very good thing. But merely wanting a testimony is not enough; you have to go out and actually find or develop that testimony. That starts with belief, but then it involves a lot of prayer, study, pondering, and living those principles to test them out.

I very firmly believe that Adam and Eve were real, literal, physical people and were the parents of all. I also have no problem believing that organic evolution occurs and is the mechanism whereby life on earth has arisen. I do not see these being in conflict at all. Others do, but I don't. So I think it's possible to be a firmly believing Latter-day Saint without rejecting scientific thinking.

[Jenamarie]

You might find The Truth About Eden by Alonzo Gaskill helpful. He goes into the story of the Fall in depth, comparing the various stories from the scriptures and what they're meant to teach us. He stresses that the Adam and Eve of the scriptures are archetypes, NOT historical. There IS a historical Adam and Eve, and Joseph Smith even saw them in a vision, but how they literally came to be, and what literally occurred in the Garden, we know only bits and pieces of from modern revelation. We have an incomplete picture about who they *really* were. Knowing this, I don't think that it's odd at all that the scientific knowledge doesn't quite "explain" them. We don't know what it is that needs to be explained yet!

And I DO believe you can have faith in the gospel even if you have "hang-ups". We're asked to have the faith of a mustard seed (which is itty-bitty-tiny!), and then as we cultivate it it will *grow* into that of a full-grown plant. That kind of growth is a process, not an event. :)

[Backroads]

I don't think too much on your subjects, but I do tend to hit the same doubts when I do spend a lot of time thinking deeply on them.

Oh, I believe in a literal Adam and Eve and I assume there was an Eden. And I assume everything in the Bible happened. But maybe not as literally as they were recorded... record-keeping being in what it is.

I also have no argument with evolution and I always understood the Big Bang theory originating as a religious explanation.

Yes, you can certainly have faith. No one expects anyone to come to church and participate feeling confident about everything.

[NeuroTypical]

This last year has also been tough. My uncle tried to kill himself and a good friend of my husband's did - he shot himself at his home - and it really messed us up. At first I told my husband that his friend (who had problems but wouldn't hurt a fly) was in the Lord's hands and that everything would be okay. He found little comfort from this but agreed. As time has gone on, I've often wondered whether I truly believed what I told him. Is he really with the Lord? Or has the life force that was in his body just simply returned to the universe? He left behind an ex-wife and two young children under 5.

I think when someone experiences a traumatic event like suicide of someone close, and a period of questioning beliefs DOESN'T occur, there's something wrong. As someone with more than his share of suicide stories, I've thought a lot about the subject. Here are some random thoughts that helped me.

* We're not on earth to be happy always. We're here to be tried, tested, refined. Bluntly, sometimes life is supposed to suck. Things got a lot simpler and better for me, once I realized that "Life shouldn't stink because [gospel principle a, b, c]" is sometimes the wrong way to think about it. Replacing it with "life stinks - I am being tested - what will I do about it", has been incredibly freeing.

* The highest highs are not possible without the lowest lows. This sounds like meaningless Facebook nonsense, but I believe it to be true. The world is full of things I appreciate and enjoy to an extent that never happened until I experienced (and emerged from) big tribulations. Those good things were with me before, but I didn't have the capacity to fully experience them.

* Consider - if your husband's friend's death had NOT messed you all up, what would that say about all of you?

* Sometimes, there are no words of comfort, and knowing that things should turn out ok is no help at all. Again, we're not here to live lives of comfort and eternal bliss. We're working towards such things, through great adversity.

* Everybody dies. As I sit here and miss my dad, I consider that if his life hadn't ended all those years ago, he would have been in his '90's now - old enough to pass on naturally. After enough time goes by, you think less about the "missing years" you "could have had", and reflect back on all that you did have.

Hope this helps.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon Bini. I hope you're having a good day! :)

I've prayed about this stuff. Obviously I haven't come upon a satisfying answer. I've tried to read the scriptures and the BOM but (and I know many of you are shaking your heads) I feel less connected when doing this. I'll read a couple chapters and my mind just doesn't compute it. It just hasn't been a successful way for me to come unto Christ. I do much better reading Ensign articles and listening/watching conference talks in comparison.

Can I even say that I believe in the gospel if I've got these hang-ups?

Reading the scriptures is like learning a new language. When you first start you will feel very uncomfortable because you are not familiar with the language of scripture. Scripture reading and then understanding comes with practice. Also, the adversary is real and he will tempt you to not read or to feeling anxious when you are reading. But, if you recognize those uncomfortable feelings as coming from the adversary, then it can make it easier to press forward.

If you pray and diligently read, you will soon find yourself excited and happy to read. Not only that, God will open your eyes and reveal things to you to help you. He can show you things in your mind and heart that will clarify doctrine and make clear things that are confusing.

Just remember that it is a process and that it will be difficult. You will likely not feel good about doing these things in the beginning. The natural man wants to enjoy the temporal pleasures in life and will fight tooth-and-nail when you attempt to introduce spirituality in to your life.

Last point. You can't expect to feel close to God and to have a love of the scriptures if you have not been doing these things consistently and diligently. As with most anything you will need to build yourself up over time.

I know that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real. I am a witness of its power because I have experienced the power of the atonement in my life. It isn't theory for me. It is through the atonement that we are able to accomplish the things necessary in life. Rely on it and ask God to lift your burdens and to alleviate your concerns.

-Finrock

Edited October 18, 2013 by Finrock
Grammar

[Guest]

Bini,

I would just like to say that in my experience, DOUBT is a good thing. Doubt is what gets me further in the gospel. Without doubt, I would still be Catholic today, oblivious to all the other testimonies I have received as an LDS.

So, because doubting led me to where I am today, I tend to welcome my doubts as an LDS because then it drives me to study more. And what I have found that the more I doubt, the more my testimony grows that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is the true church - once I've conquered those doubts.

So... I am grateful for Doubts!

...

...

And to second what Vort said... I believe in Adam and Eve and the Garden and I also believe in evolution (no, I don't believe man came from apes). The Big Bang theory does not conflict with the accounts of Genesis.

Basically, I can see this as a possibility... God said, let there be light... and BIG BANG!... there was light.

[classylady]

Do I ever question my beliefs? Yes, I do. I think most people have experienced doubts. I have no problem with Adam and Eve, or even if they got here by evolution. Evolution, to me, does not discount the Plan. To me, it doesn't matter how they got here. I've never really thought about the Big Bang Theory, so I don't have anything to say on it. As for death, and what happens to our spirits, I've thought long and hard and deeply on this.

My father died in a train/pickup accident when I was six years old. This had a huge impact on me. About one year later I had a dear childhood friend die in a car accident. And as the years went by, I had other family members and friends pass away. Then ten years ago, my 19 year old daughter died in a car accident. The passing of my daughter has been the most soul shattering experience of my life. There is no way to describe the pain, grief, anger, and sense of loss to anyone.

What happens to a person after they die? Do I really believe that their spirit lives on? Or is it the end? Do I cling to the belief that their spirit lives on, because that's the only way I can cope ? Or do I really believe there is a God? Are we his spirit children? Do we go home to Him after we leave this life? Whenever, these doubts come up, I do some soul searching, and I can answer calmly and emphatically, that yes!, there is life after death. I've had some wonderful, peaceful moments where the Spirit has confirmed this truth. I've had sweet experiences that confirm the existence of my loved ones beyond this life. I cling to that. I cling to the hope. This isn't silly nonsense, as some would claim. This is truth.

Life is hard. And sometimes, all we can do is struggle through it. Bini, you'll get through this. <hugs>

Edited October 18, 2013 by classylady

[Windseeker]

I hope HiJolly doesn't mind if I post this but I've been thinking about this allot and it's helped. Especially point number 7.

SEVEN TRUTHS: HOW WE RELATE TO THE CHURCH

By “HiJolly” at StayLDS.com

FIRST: God is in charge. There is an order to heaven and heavenly things. It is not typically limited as we are taught, or as we tend to think it is. If God wants someone 'saved,' then it is so. Our immature reasons and demands are irrelevant.

SECOND: The Church is a facilitator and an introduction to the realities of heaven. I personally believe it is the single best one on the earth today. Even so, it is not the reality itself. For every outward, physical ordinance (Baptism, Marriage, Priesthood, Endowment, etc.) in the Church, there is an inner, esoteric fulfillment to that ordinance. This is the true essence of the Gospel. Everything we see and do simply points to, promises, or leads us to the inner fulfillment.

THIRD: The weakness and limitations of the membership of the Church requires that administrative leaders generally come from the men and women that the body of the Church can respect and look up to, not from the most spiritually in tune or Godly Saints. Rarely, we get both types of leader in one individual. The rest of the time, pragmatism wins, by the will of the Lord.

FOURTH: The Church and the Gospel are not the same thing.

FIFTH: Everything we hear in Church, everything in General Conference, in the Ensign, etc. is what the temple endowment refers to as "the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture". It is all hindered by the limitations of mortals struggling themselves to understand, even within the Church. The temple tells us where to get the 'pure' truth. There is only one source: True messengers from Father. How shall you know...?

SIXTH: The veil is big, and for good reasons. God freely allows us to misunderstand anything, even His own revelation to us. Our task is to have clean hands and pure hearts so the messages we receive are not distorted or confusing.

SEVENTH: There never will be a bigger, more important key to living life than faith. Period.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Cracks let the light in.

[TalkativeIntrovert]

I have a lot of doubts, in fact I do not believe certain parts of the teachings at all, but I reconcile what I do believe against what I don't and come up with my answer to stay in the church.

Overriding all my doubts is the one big definite - I believe in God.

After that, things may or may not be true, they may be literal or figurative, there may be mistakes in history, there may be all sorts of things - but none of that matters as right now, in my life, The number 1 article of faith says it all:

1.We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

[Anddenex]

Hello Bini - Remember you are not alone in your thoughts.

Doubt is evident within us because we live by faith ( doubt is an opposite of faith ), not a perfect knowledge but some knowledge has been given to us. I like Elder Uchtdorf's talk "doubt your doubts" first, always place trust in the Lord.

Growth is accomplished through the presence of doubt. We are informed in scripture that without agency ( doubt is evidence that we have agency ), righteousness could not be brought to pass. Growth is a process of enticements between bitter and sweet, truth and error, doubt and faith. The question for all of us, which one do we entertain? I enjoy the dream of Nephi explaining how some who partook of the fruit gave head to those in the great and spacious building and left, while others received the same but did not give heed.

I don't see any reason why you can't believe in both. How did God create the world? Would he have been able to create it through a "Big Bang" type force -- sure why not. As LDS this is actually plausible because we do not believe in a ex-nihlio creation. Could the theory of Big Bang be untrue? Sure, just like any theory science puts forth. What I found most interesting from a popular physicist who explained how a theory lasted 100 years, supported by plenty of other peer reviewed articles, until one day it was proven inaccurate by asking the right question.

What about evolution? You choose, yet as John Taylor once said that as LDS we love the truth and we accept truth no matter the source because Jesus is the way, "the truth," and the light. We have also been warned in scripture to be careful in trusting in the arm of the flesh. Science, theoretical science, is the arm of the flesh; yet even this arm provides incredible insight to our life, because this arm still will bring forth truth. I accept organic evolution within "kinds." In other words, I accept that the mustang and the zebra had a common ancestor. I accept that trout ( all the different species ) most likely had a common ancestor. I don't accept that one of my great grandaddies was a fish ( no evidence no proof ). The theories are very interesting to read about but all they can provide me with is a theory. I see organic evolution within "kinds" within my own children, but at the same time I will leave my heart open to truth.

I also accept that a prophet will know more than any scientist regarding our nature and our heritage, because they are revealed truth right from the source and they don't need a Ph.D. to receive truth. They only need an open heart and a willing mind, and if God wills it will be revealed through them.

I accept that Adam and Eve existed, literally accepted, because Adam will one day be apart of the ushering in of the second coming in a general assembly.

[McLainDow]

I have been down the rabbit hole and there are many things about things said in church (Especially church history) that I seriously doubt. We want things to always be clean but, often they are messy this I believe is by design. This I believe is a good thing.. Despite my doubts I have I can say this: There is nothing I have found that makes me doubt the core doctrines of this church and or my testimony.

[skippy740]

[slamjet]

My .02...

I have recently experienced some things with the church that have brought on some doubts (I'm not going to share so don't ask) that has shaken me to the very core but I have come to some conclusions and beliefs that have helped me greatly:

- I believe that the gospel is simple. So simple that it is often made complicated by mortals because of the "it can't be that simple" syndrome.

- I believe and have faith that the ordinances of the church are done with authority and are necessary for me to return to live with my Father in Heaven and qualify to receive all that He has.

- I believe and have faith that what I need to do is:

> Have faith, believe and be obedient to the commandments of God.

> Be baptized by water and the spirit.

> Receive the ordinances of the temple.

> Continue to be obedient to the commandments and endure to the end.

- And in keeping with the simpleness, I know that if I don't read and ponder the scriptures, attend and be active in church and outwardly pray at least twice a day I will fall back into my addictions.

- I know that the church is NOT perfect but it is the only church that contains the full gospel. Thus it is true where true means it has the authority, ordinances and restored gospel necessary for salvation. It's the mortals in it that sometimes leave something to be desired.

- I learned that I need to dispose of the spirit of rebelliousness, learn to listen to the spirit of God and discipline myself to act on God's spirit.

- In hindsight, I have seen that God is a whole lot more involved in my life that I can see, especially at the moment, or will ever know in this life.

- I understand that having doubts is a natural state of being mortal. That those who do not have a doubt or two, who declare that the church is perfect and/or who see that doubt is a weakness are in and of themselves either lacking sufficient comfort in the gospel and/or may not feel they have enough faith to receive and answer from God about questions they may have. Thus, creating a false set of circumstances where they can be strong in the gospel and church but also where they are lacking and wanting.

- I have come to know that to have doubts is healthy and that as these doubts are worked on, so long as we stay close to God, the gospel and the church, these doubts will create a stronger faith. Remember that faith is not a knowledge of but a hope in things not seen, but true.

In any case, I am still sorting through my doubts but I will still stay close to the church and especially live the gospel principles because I have lived the comparison of living and not living with the gospel. But my Bishop and Stake 1st counselor know of the experience I have hitherto mentioned and have been helping me with it.

So don't ever think that having doubts make you less of a "Mormon" than the next person. I dare say it makes you a better one. So don't let other people get under your skin about having doubts. Work through your doubts, pray about them, study about them and you'll be fine.

[Quin]

When I was 10 years old, most of my spiritual guidance was from our neighbor... Rabbi M.

(Looooooooooooooooooove that man!)

He taught me that God wants us to doubt, question, and argue.

Because it shows we're thinking, and caring, and feeling, and trying.

He gave us these minds to use.

How great that we're using them to question, learn, and grow.

A doubt is not a bad thing.

It's an attempt to better understand God.

Q

[warbunny]

The creation took 6 days. We are also told a day to the Lord is 1000 years to us....if the creation took 6000 years it doesn't take alot of imagination to guess maybe some form of evolution was occurring during that process of "creation."

Conflicts between revelation vs science? At the time of Columbus, "science" said the earth was flat. DUH! Science was wrong. Hello? We have progressed abit since then....but not so much. A famous LDS Scientist Henry D. Eyring's father said in a university fireside I attended "when there is a conflict between science and revealed Gospel truths it is easy to explain...science is wrong" Surely there are contradictions...and maybe truths even change with situations....but if you have had a legitimate spiritual confirmation (testimony) of the eternal truth you know it was real.....which means it still is real. Nephi said "I know in whom I have trusted and Awake my soul,Rejoice O my heart and give no more plce for the enemy of my soul" 2 N 4: 19-28 Good stuff!

[MarginOfError]

I rarely, if ever, make threads like this but I feel comfortable enough here to ask for some helpful and encouraging input.

When I joined this site a few years back I wandered in here not expecting much at all. I was inactive and had no real intentions of returning to the gospel - not because I was angry - because I thought I had found peace and was fine without it. I was fine, I did have peace in my life, but something was still missing. As I found myself participating more in the forum and its discussions, I also found myself back at church within a year or so, and I was much less bitter regarding certain gospel topics and principals overall. My husband who has been inactive for many many years, was showing a genuine interest in returning to the gospel and had quit drinking, among many other lifestyle changes. We both did. Then we had our daughter, who is in the terrible two stage now, and we knew we wanted to offer her more than just: Be a good person and that's enough. We wanted her to know that she has a purpose here in this life and that the Lord is always there to guide her - no matter how often she falls or how far she has fallen. That is something not everyone knows or truly understands.

Lately I've found myself doing some serious doubting. No, I don't read anti-Mormon literature nor am I lost to a hidden addiction that is leading me astray. I'm just finding that I'm contemplating some things that have never really bothered me in the past but do now. They're not even 'big deal' things but they're enough that get the wheels turning and make me wonder..

I won't cover everything but I'll start with this one. I suppose it's a common one that many struggle with. I can accept but do not believe that Adam and Eve ever existed. I know that sounds like a contradicting statement and maybe it is but let me try to clarify. If the gospel says they existed - I can accept that - but when I ask myself whether it's true I get an immediate "no" answer. There really is no reason for me to say this but I'll say it anyway, I'm no religious scholar or scientist but why can't we have come from the BIG BANG evolution and it still be from the hand of God? Why is it one or the other? I'm finding myself very sceptical about many if not all the stories in the Bible. I know that some things have been proven to some degree by archaeologists but even those findings have their sceptics.

This last year has also been tough. My uncle tried to kill himself and a good friend of my husband's did - he shot himself at his home - and it really messed us up. At first I told my husband that his friend (who had problems but wouldn't hurt a fly) was in the Lord's hands and that everything would be okay. He found little comfort from this but agreed. As time has gone on, I've often wondered whether I truly believed what I told him. Is he really with the Lord? Or has the life force that was in his body just simply returned to the universe? He left behind an ex-wife and two young children under 5.

I've prayed about this stuff. Obviously I haven't come upon a satisfying answer. I've tried to read the scriptures and the BOM but (and I know many of you are shaking your heads) I feel less connected when doing this. I'll read a couple chapters and my mind just doesn't compute it. It just hasn't been a successful way for me to come unto Christ. I do much better reading Ensign articles and listening/watching conference talks in comparison.

Can I even say that I believe in the gospel if I've got these hang-ups?

My thoughts aren't succinct, but this is something I'd been thinking about writing before I read your post.

Uncommon Dissent: Sixty Stripling Warriors

[mirkwood]

I've got a couple of doctrinal points that used to really bother me. I addressed them in prayer one night and the answer I got, was that I would get an answer once I have left mortality and it will make sense to me at that time. That was good enough for me, and over the years, those points no longer bother me, because they just do not matter to my participation in the Gospel.

[Bini]

Thanks for taking the time to post. I read all the responses.

I understand that some things are not important for us to know in this mortal life but I suppose that's assuming you have faith in the gospel that there is a post-mortal life with God. I guess I've found myself teetering on that edge of doubt. And I don't know where it came from to be honest but it's started to bother me more and more.

I worry a bit because initially I was the one that considered returning to the Church. I remember feeling some sadness because my husband just wasn't at that point, nor did he seem to feel the gospel necessary in his life. Now it's like completely reversed. I'm sitting around (not literally) wondering what is and what isn't (literally). My husband has gone to church with our daughter without me and last Sunday I wasn't up to going again. I feel zero motivation or inspiration to go. Also, my parents who are very strong LDS will be up for the holidays (I invited them) and they're very excited to attend our ward and meet the folks in the neighbourhood. (Quick recap on that - we moved a couple months ago.) The issue with that is I'm a bit uneasy about coming clean on how I've been feeling lately when they ask how come I haven't been at church. They've both seen me come so far, and now I'm just iffy on it. Not entirely but definitely iffy. Again, I have no animosity towards the church at all. Yes there are some things I don't fully understand but otherwise I harbour no hate. If I was to word what I'm feeling in a nutshell it would be: (1) going through the motions and (2) doubting myself.

[MarginOfError]

If I was to word what I'm feeling in a nutshell it would be: (1) going through the motions and (2) doubting myself.

I go through that about once every 2-3 years. It doesn't mean you're broken or anything. It means you're human.

Honest inquiry requires that you challenge the assumptions of your beliefs and that you challenge the assumptions of the beliefs that counter yours. It also means that sometimes you accept that you don't yet understand the answers. At times like that, it's appropriate to go through the motions.

Also, about the role reversal with you and your husband...that's what's nice about having such a close friend in the Gospel. It's perfectly acceptable to lean on someone else to get you through the rough patches.