Temple recommend questions gone too far

[Suzie]

You guys talk about tithing, what about answering the question they used to ask almost 160 years ago:

"Do you, and your family, wash or bathe as regularly as you are able?"

[mirkwood]

If I were giving a TR interview, and knew for whatever reason that your records showed 0 for tithing, I knew you were employed, and you said yes, I would ask a clarifying question about how you were paying. Once you told me you were paying direct, unless prompted by the spirit, that would be good enough for me. I see no problem with a clarifying question following a response, if there is information in the hands of the bishop, to cause concern about the answer.

[Anddenex]

When a ward member feels badgered by a bishop, it's moved on from clarification and instruction.

Not necessarily so, some members feel badgered even with clarifying questions even if the clarifying questions are necessary to ask.

[Suzie]

It seems that's what Doctrine did. The Bishop asked him if he was a full-time tithe payer and he said yes, he then asked him how he pays tithing (I suppose perhaps because he saw the records) and Doctrine answered that he paid directly to the Church. That should have been enough, IMO.

I am just guessing that his Bishop isn't very familiar with this procedure and felt uncomfortable that he couldn't really see the records that shows how much Doctrine paid in tithing.

[Anddenex]

In light of this conversation I will highlight Elder Eyring's talk provided in the "First Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting" ( January 11, 2003, Standards of Worthiness).

"Now let's start with what you do as members enter...You must find a way to say that you represent the Lord in this interview...And you should let them know that you have prayed for the spirit of discernment--for them and for you....

"The first three questions give you a great opportunity....But rather than rush on to the next questions, you would be wise to invite members to express their feelings...That will help them answer honestly...And it will help you discern their worthiness....

"You must pray for revelation to act wisely....

"But, Bishop, if you find very often that you have to explain the standard of chastity or what a full tithe is in those interviews, you know that they need more preparation."

"Brethren...Many of us know the pain, the heartbreak, the test of faith that comes when people must be told in that interview that they are not worthy to go to the temple. Even when they answer the questions with the right answers, you may have to say at the end of the interview, 'I don't have a settled feeling about signing your recommend tonight. Let's meet again soon.' From that will come a confession which could have come earlier. "

Yes, it is very clear a Bishop is definitely able to ask clarifying questions, even to ask other questions to help with discerning worthiness of a member. Our bishops are common judges in Israel endowed with gifts to help discern and to fulfill their tasks to the best of their ability.

As other have suggested a bishop is not to "add any requirements" for a person to hold a temple recommend. I have heard of bishops denying people a recommend because they drink caffeine. This is a good example of "adding" a requirement.

[Palerider]

You guys talk about tithing, what about answering the question they used to ask almost 160 years ago:

"Do you, and your family, wash or bathe as regularly as you are able?"

Need the laugh button. Lol

[classylady]

You guys talk about tithing, what about answering the question they used to ask almost 160 years ago:

"Do you, and your family, wash or bathe as regularly as you are able?"

Haha. But, you know what? It would have been awful sitting in an endowment room full of people who hadn't bathed for more than a week! And, cologne or perfume would not have been able to cover up body odor, even if they had bathed within the past three days or so.

[Just_A_Guy]

Per Church Policy at COB, local leaders are not to promote nor discourage paying tithes & offerings directly to COB.

Sharky, do you have a link to this policy? Mormon Life Hacker had an entry about paying tithes direct to SLC, but the Church asked them to take it down--apparently that process wasn't intended for the general membership.

[Wingnut]

Sharky, do you have a link to this policy? Mormon Life Hacker had an entry about paying tithes direct to SLC, but the Church asked them to take it down--apparently that process wasn't intended for the general membership.

I actually read that post yesterday, along with looking at a few other resources, including at tech.lds.org. I think the reason that MLH was asked to take it down is because he had included setup links on his blog, whereas SLC would prefer that members set up their direct pay options via phone or mail. It's not yet a widely available thing you can just do online, and that's what MLH was sharing. I found plenty of other opt-in options, but you had to call or mail first.

[MarginOfError]

Part of the problem is that there is no automated process to get your tithing payment set up. A person has to go in and enter the data manually. Church headquarters doesn't really have to staff to manage a big rush on setting these up. When they get an automated process going, I imagine they'll be pretty open about letting people use it. But I don't think it's high on their list of priorities right now.

[Suzie]

You guys talk about tithing, what about answering the question they used to ask almost 160 years ago:

"Do you, and your family, wash or bathe as regularly as you are able?"

I know, sort of pathetic to quote yourself but I was just thinking the word "regularly" here. It reminded me of the WOW and eating meat "sparingly" and what exactly sparingly means to people and the fact that it is so open to interpretation.

In this case, regularly could fall into that category as well, with the difference that if someone eats or doesn't eat meat sparingly there is really no way to know but if someone interpreted the counsel of bathing once a week, you could certainly tell.

I know, offtopic. Blame it to Lakumi.

[Lakumi]

I know, sort of pathetic to quote yourself but I was just thinking the word "regularly" here. It reminded me of the WOW and eating meat "sparingly" and what exactly sparingly means to people and the fact that it is so open to interpretation.

In this case, regularly could fall into that category as well, with the difference that if someone eats or doesn't eat meat sparingly there is really no way to know but if someone interpreted the counsel of bathing once a week, you could certainly tell.

I know, offtopic. Blame it to Lakumi.

It's catching on!

[Sharky]

Sharky, do you have a link to this policy? Mormon Life Hacker had an entry about paying tithes direct to SLC, but the Church asked them to take it down--apparently that process wasn't intended for the general membership.

No link, actual internal policy as was explained to me.

Don't make an assumption that using a bank bill pay is the only way of paying direct to Salt Lake. There are other means both electronically & manually, including mailing donations direct to Salt Lake.

Paying at the local unit vs paying direct to COB (regardless of paper check or one of the several electronic means) is largely one "to be determined individually by ones personal circumstances and needs".

There are some concerns about using bank bill pay to pay tithes. The Act of paying tithing is an important part of obedience, using bill pay can essentially automate the process to the point where one does not have to think about it, essentially eliminating the Act of Obedience.

As MoE also points out, there are some issues still be resolved with payments made direct to Salt Lake, mainly the manual process of handling those payments once they receive them.

[Palerider]

I would love to have my tithing with drawn from my account each week so I don't have to grab a check or cash and find envelope and then find a bishopric person to hand it too. Then if I forget to hand it to them try again next week. Most of the time now I just put a stamp on it and mail it. Lol

[RMGuy]

My understanding was paying direct was set up primarily for wealthy members to avoid discussion of earnings in the ward, or in cases where there may be conflicts. It was not INTENDED for general use, but MAY be used by anyone. I highly recommend it for many reasons. Easy, doesn't keep bishoprics away from their families, no gossip, etc.

[NightSG]

There are some concerns about using bank bill pay to pay tithes. The Act of paying tithing is an important part of obedience, using bill pay can essentially automate the process to the point where one does not have to think about it, essentially eliminating the Act of Obedience.

One could also argue that tithing by check eliminates the effort of counting out the money.

While we're at it, let's get rid of those preprinted slips and envelopes. If you're not making your own paper and ink for your tithing slips, you're just not obedient enough.

[Sharky]

My understanding was paying direct was set up primarily for wealthy members to avoid discussion of earnings in the ward, or in cases where there may be conflicts. It was not INTENDED for general use, but MAY be used by anyone. I highly recommend it for many reasons. Easy, doesn't keep bishoprics away from their families, no gossip, etc.

Thanks RMGuy, that fits right along with the policy that was explained to me ... local units are not to encourage or discourage paying direct.

[Sharky]

One could also argue that tithing by check eliminates the effort of counting out the money.

While we're at it, let's get rid of those preprinted slips and envelopes. If you're not making your own paper and ink for your tithing slips, you're just not obedient enough.

Writing a check each time still requires a conscious Act each time you pay.

The issue with BillPay is that recurring tithing payments can be scheduled that happen every 2-weeks (or whatever time frame you schedule) without any further action or thought from the member.

5 minutes 1 time to set up the recurring payments & never worry about it again ... 100% automatic until you choose to change it, 5, 10, or even more years .... set it up & forget about it indefinitely.

Tithing (& the associated act of obedience) was not meant or intended to be so automatic that you can set it up & forget 100% about it for years & still have it paid every week.

[The Folk Prophet]

Writing a check each time still requires a conscious Act each time you pay.

The issue with BillPay is that recurring tithing payments can be scheduled that happen every 2-weeks (or whatever time frame you schedule) without any further action or thought from the member.

5 minutes 1 time to set up the recurring payments & never worry about it again ... 100% automatic until you choose to change it, 5, 10, or even more years .... set it up & forget about it indefinitely.

Tithing (& the associated act of obedience) was not meant or intended to be so automatic that you can set it up & forget 100% about it for years & still have it paid every week.

I don't agree with that necessarily. I mean, I see your point, but if you make a very steady income I don't see anything wrong with autopay. Besides, say someone made 60k a year. 5k a month. They set up an autopay of $500 to tithing monthly. You really think they're going to be blissfully unaware of the fact that a very nice truck payment amount is leaving their bank account each month? Tithing is a sacrifice, regardless of whether you write out the check by hand or not.

Moreover, I think that within 5-10 years electronic tithe paying will be the norm. The church is and always has been a bit behind the times technology-wise. Carbon copy receipts is a thing of the past. The church will catch up.

[Sharky]

I don't agree with that necessarily. I mean, I see your point, but if you make a very steady income I don't see anything wrong with autopay. Besides, say someone made 60k a year. 5k a month. They set up an autopay of $500 to tithing monthly. You really think they're going to be blissfully unaware of the fact that a very nice truck payment amount is leaving their bank account each month? Tithing is a sacrifice, regardless of whether you write out the check by hand or not.

Moreover, I think that within 5-10 years electronic tithe paying will be the norm. The church is and always has been a bit behind the times technology-wise. Carbon copy receipts is a thing of the past. The church will catch up.

Unfortunately a lot of people are very blissfully unaware of the amount of dollars passing thru their bank account.

I've encountered it a lot with people seeking welfare assistance & being asked to provide the amount of their income & the amount of their expenses (& what their expenses are). All too often they have no clue when you first ask them to account for how they spend their monthly income. Seems they can account for the big things but many of the small things they can't identify & the small things account for a lot of money.

The truck payment leaving the check account ... most people give that less thought then they do a tithing payment. The consequences are clear & swift if they don't pay that truck payment so it requires no thought, it's an absolute necessity. Tithing on the other hand ... the rewards or consequences are rarely so swift.

As for the concern of the automatic recurring payments of tithes ... that was a concern that an individual at COB voiced several years ago when the church first started accepting billpay tithing.

I can see & understand both sides of the issue ...

Edited March 24, 2014 by Sharky

[The Folk Prophet]

As for the concern of the automatic recurring payments of tithes ... that was a concern that an individual at COB voiced several years ago when the church first started accepting billpay tithing.

I think these sorts of concerns are exactly why the church moves slowly with technology. And you may be right on the auto bill pay thing. But that's an easy enough thing to simply not include in the software dev that takes the payments. :) Time will tell.

[rayhale]

I can understand the thought that auto-pay takes out the "sacrifice" in tithing, but for someone like me, who forgets to pay tithing, or fill out everything on the tithing slip, set the tithing envelope on something so I won't forget to pick it up, but somehow I did forget it. It would be nice to pay through e-payments, so I won't forget it.

[Drpepper]

In light of this conversation I will highlight Elder Eyring\'s talk provided in the \"First Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting\" ( January 11, 2003, Standards of Worthiness).\"Now let\'s start with what you do as members enter...You must find a way to say that you represent the Lord in this interview...And you should let them know that you have prayed for the spirit of discernment--for them and for you....\"The first three questions give you a great opportunity....But rather than rush on to the next questions, you would be wise to invite members to express their feelings...That will help them answer honestly...And it will help you discern their worthiness....\"You must pray for revelation to act wisely....\"But, Bishop, if you find very often that you have to explain the standard of chastity or what a full tithe is in those interviews, you know that they need more preparation.\"\"Brethren...Many of us know the pain, the heartbreak, the test of faith that comes when people must be told in that interview that they are not worthy to go to the temple. Even when they answer the questions with the right answers, you may have to say at the end of the interview, \'I don\'t have a settled feeling about signing your recommend tonight. Let\'s meet again soon.\' From that will come a confession which could have come earlier. \"Yes, it is very clear a Bishop is definitely able to ask clarifying questions, even to ask other questions to help with discerning worthiness of a member. Our bishops are common judges in Israel endowed with gifts to help discern and to fulfill their tasks to the best of their ability.As other have suggested a bishop is not to \"add any requirements\" for a person to hold a temple recommend. I have heard of bishops denying people a recommend because they drink caffeine. This is a good example of \"adding\" a requirement.

Anddnex

This forum should have stopped here. Amen brother you are spot on....

On a side note.. How many times do I need to read people counselling Bishops on these forums?

Yet I bet known of those people would put their hand up to be a Bishop. Shaky ground people....

[mnn727]

As far as auto bill pay goes:

 

So what if they use auto pay? the act of obedience is still there, the choice to pay was made and the act is followed up on.

Do I have do decide I am going to follow the Word of Wisdom every day? or do I decide once and then just do it?

Do I decide I am going to obey the Law of Chasity once and go about my business or do I have to decide every time I see someone new?

[Guest]

I don't get the "you don't feel the autopay" sentiment either. My taxes are withheld even before it hits my bank and trust me... I feel that. My mortgage, car payment, and transfers to savings are on autopay. And those I feel too.

If you don't feel your autopay, I don't think the problem is with autopay. The problem is one's detachment to one's financial state...