Doctrines verses personal covenants

[Traveler]

I have been a poster here for a few years.  I want to thank this forum and those that post here for many exchanges.  There is however, something that I think needs to be said.  Mostly I believe when we talk about our religion – be it LDS or otherwise – we seem to be focused on doctrine and our various opinions concerning doctrines than we are on our personal covenants.  I am posting and beginning this thread for several reasons; not least among which is my honest feeling that doctrines are way over emphasized in my mind.  In essence it would seem to me that we think of religion too much in terms of doctrine and not enough in consideration covenants; especially our individual sacred covenants with G-d.

 

Of course there is a correlation of doctrine with covenants – but I believe that our covenants are far more important than the doctrine we believe.  To begin with our covenants determine more of what we do and why we do it than doctrine.  To illustrate this concept with an example, consider the Sabbath.  In almost all discussions concerning the Sabbath there is both agreement and disagreement concerning the do’s and don’t’s concerning the Sabbath.  There is little discussion concerning what we as individuals have learned by and through our personal covenants concerning the Sabbath and to keep it holy.

 

Many have debated the nature of G-d but few share openly how their covenants have drawn them closer to G-d and help them understand him and our relationship to him.  An example here – more than any lesson concerning G-d – I have come to understand our Father in Heaven (G-d) most by my commitment and experience to be a father to my children and husband to my wife from my personal marriage covenant than from any doctrine I have read or discussed concerning the nature of G-d.

 

Many times I have highlighted what I think a poster may have missed because they seem to be focused too much, in my view, on doctrines rather than on their covenants.  If I have offended anyone (and I know I have because or points given to me by forum monitors for doing so) I apologize – I am sorry for that.  My person covenant is more along the lines of comforting the afflicted first and if I fell necessary to afflict the comfortable; than it is to straighten out anyone's understanding of doctrine.  I really do not think doctrine is that important compared to the covenants that we live every moment of our lives by.

[The Folk Prophet]

Traveler,

 

Respectfully, this makes no sense to me. The covenants we make with God (which He specifies, not us) all amount to obedience to His commandments. The doctrine is to keep his commandments. We covenant to obey His doctrine. They cannot be separated.

 

Moreover, covenants ARE doctrine. If you're discussing the importance of covenants, then you are discussing doctrine.

[pkstpaul]

I think I understand what is being said. I see people study doctrine to the point of losing the religion. That was probably more vague than even Traveller said it. Often I point out the difference between the "church" and the "gospel". People can be so focused on the church they don't live the gospel. I see husbands I think more married to the Church than their wife or family. I don't wish to focus on examples because you can't be critical of someone for doing the right thing - like studying the scriptures, but we have all seen people become zealous over interpretation of the scripture to the point they are obnoxious and/or offensive to others. That's not the gospel.

[Guest]

You mean like.. .Beware the Theologian lest they ruin your Faith?

[askandanswer]

"True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior.

The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel."

Boyd K Packer, October 1986 General Conference

[skalenfehl]

...My person covenant is more along the lines of comforting the afflicted first and if I fell necessary to afflict the comfortable; than it is to straighten out anyone's understanding of doctrine.  I really do not think doctrine is that important compared to the covenants that we live every moment of our lives by.

 

I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you. I'll probably ruffle some feathers, but this is an important topic. Jesus Christ taught at Bountiful exactly what His doctrine is: Faith unto repentance and Baptism. Furthermore, "Pure religion" as described by James in the New Testament is very clear.

 

 

Quote James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

King Benjamin hit the nail squarely on the head when he taught his people what it means to be Zion. He made the hallmark of his address the care of the poor and the needy. He emphasized that if we are to "retain a remission of our sins," we are to succor those who need it without judgment.

 

 

 

Quote Mosiah 4:26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

 

Alma witnessed wickedness enter the church because the members lifted themselves up in their pride and idolatry and ignored the needy. It is the reason that he gave up the chief judge seat and undertook a ministry to "cleanse" the church beginning at Zarahemla:

 

 

Alma4: 11 And it came to pass in the commencement of the ninth year, Alma saw the wickedness of the church, and he saw also that the example of the church began to lead those who were unbelievers on from one piece of iniquity to another, thus bringing on the destruction of the people.

 12 Yea, he saw great inequality among the people, some lifting themselves up with their pride, despising others, turning their backs upon the needy and the naked and those who were hungry, and those who were athirst, and those who were sick and afflicted.

 13 Now this was a great cause for lamentations among the people, while others were abasing themselves, succoring those who stood in need of their succor, such as imparting their substance to the poor and the needy, feeding the hungry, and suffering all manner of afflictions, for Christ’s sake, who should come according to the spirit of prophecy;

 14 Looking forward to that day, thus retaining a remissionof their sins; being filled with great joy because of the resurrection of the dead, according to the will and power anddeliverance of Jesus Christ from the bands of death.

 15 And now it came to pass that Alma, having seen the afflictions of the humble followers of God, and the persecutions which were heaped upon them by the remainder of his people, and seeing all their inequality, began to be very sorrowful; nevertheless the Spirit of the Lord did not fail him.

 

 

We have this same inequality in our church. We call ourselves the true church, we covenant to obey the law of obedience, sacrifice, consecration, etc in the temple, and yet the very same wickedness and inequality is found in our church. We are getting further and further away from Zion. Joseph Smith fought an uphill battle and all we have done is make it a worldwide problem. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but speaking in general terms, and I include myself as part of the problem, but also part of the solution.

 

Moses 7:18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

 

We have not learned from the mistakes of those who painstakingly recorded their history for the very purpose that we learn from them.

 

Mormon 9:30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

 31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

 

But Zenos and Jacob saw that it would not be so.

 

Jacob 5: 47 But what could I have done more in my vineyard? Have I slackened mine hand, that I have not nourished it? Nay, I have nourished it, and I have digged about it, and I have pruned it, and I have dunged it; and I have stretched forth mine hand almost all the day long, and the end draweth nigh. And it grieveth me that I should hew down all the trees of my vineyard, and cast them into the fire that they should be burned. Who is it that has corrupted my vineyard?

 48 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?

 

"Oh Babylon, Oh Babylon, we bid thee farewell! We're going to the mountains of Ephraim to dwell!"

 

We sing that hymn with such fervor as we honor the pioneers who were exiled into the wilderness. But we look at the mountains of Ephraim (Gentiles) today and we are just as worldly and proud as the rest of Babylon. We are as idolatrous as the best of them. We have perfected Babylon and masquerade as Zion. 

 

 

A False Socio-Economic System Sustains Babylon

 

"Personal gain and power--the quest for self-exaltation--are the main driving forces behind Babylon. If these are our driving forces also, then we too belong to Babylon. Babylon focuses on the things of this world, not those of God or a better world. Babylon's socio-economic system is based on the manufacture, promotion, and sale of idols--false gods people worship. The prophets define these the "works of men's hands," inventions of man's own making. Anciently, false gods consisted largely of statues, icons, and fetishes...

 

...In our society, no less than in ancient Babylon, consumer goods--the works of men's hands--form a vast human enterprise...They follow popular trends and are expensive to buy. They divide people into rich and poor, depending on who can pay the highest price."

 

 

I pulled this random image off the internet. The title of the image is "Me trying to look as stylish as the Escalade."

 

 

Isaiah satirically parodies the role of idols in Babylon's society. People attribute their success in life to them rather than to God. After all, they provide a decent living for those who manufacture, promote, and sell them. In fact, the entire human establishment revolves around them. The very machinery of Bayblon thrives on the profuse production of idols, the fruits of man's resourcefulness and marvelous ingenuity. 

 

"Isaiah depicts this preoccupation with idols as false "worship," set in opposition to true worship. The Hebrew verb "worship" (abad) also means "work" (abad). Applying this dual meaning, whatever people work at, spend their energies and resources on, that is what they worship. Those who belong to Babylon, however, don't perceive it for what it is. They can't for a moment imagine that they are worshiping idols or that there is a problem with what they do. They carry their idols on their persons, they place them in their homes, they idolize and adore them, yet they don't discern that it is idolatry. Materialism, like any other culture, seeks to perpetuate itself and provides its own rationale."

 

 

 

The contest between the false gods and true God extends beyond material lusts verses spiritual fulfillment. No god that men make is able to deliver them in the day of calamity. There comes a moment of truth--the end of the world--when everyone will recognize who is God and who isn't. "As one, the makers of inventions retreated in disgrace, utterly dismayed and embarrassed" (Isaiah 45:16). Their false gods couldn't save them. Instead, they caused them to fall prey to the archtyrant's propaganda, blinding them to his evil designs. Preoccupied with their idols, they lost sight of Israel's God, their only Savior.

 

 

All quotes taken from Avraham Gileadi's book, Isaiah Decoded, bold and colored emphasis are mine. The above image with Zion's Bank makes me shake my head in...disbelief? I don't know what to think every time I drive by a Zion's bank or any other place of business with the name Zion attached to it. It reminds me of Hugh Nibley's words in "What is Zion? A Distant View" where he says:

 

 

"Elders of Israel are greedy after the things of this world. If you ask them if they are ready to build up the kingdom of God, their answer is prompt–"Why, to be sure we are, with our whole souls; but we want first to get so much gold, speculate and get rich, and then we can help the church considerably. We will go to California and get gold, go and buy goods and get rich, trade with the emigrants, build a mill, make a farm, get a large herd of cattle, and then we can do a great deal for Israel.

 

I have heard this many times from friends and relatives, but it is hokum. What they are saying is, “If God will give me a million dollars, I will let him have a generous cut of it.” And so they pray and speculate and expect the Lord to come through for them. He won’t do it: “And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property” (D&C 19:26). “Let them repent of all their sins, and of all their covetous desires, before me, saith the Lord; for what is property unto me? saith the Lord” (D&C 117:4). He does not need our property or our help.

 

Every rhetorician knows that his most effective weapons by far are labels. He can demolish the opposition with simple and devastating labels such as communism, socialism, or atheism, popery, militarism, or Mormonism, or give his clients’ worst crimes a religious glow with noble labels such as integrity, old-fashioned honesty, tough-mindedness, or free competitive enterprise. “You can get away with anything if you just wave the flag,” a business partner of my father once told me. He called that patriotism. But the label game reaches its all-time peak of skill and effrontery in the Madison Avenue master stroke of pasting the lovely label of Zion on all the most typical institutions of Babylon: Zion’s Loans, Zion’s Real Estate, Zion’s Used Cars, Zion’s Jewelry, Zion’s Supermart, Zion’s Auto Wrecking, Zion’s Outdoor Advertising, Zion’s Gunshop, Zion’s Land and Mining, Zion’s Development, Zion’s Securities–all that is quintessentially Babylon now masquerades as Zion. "

 

If we have received a remission of our sins through repentance and baptism, then let us "retain a remission" by eliminating the inequality that exists in our church, even in our very wards and neighborhoods. When our Savior, Jesus Christ returns in glory, many may not understand how it is they were saved:

 

Matthew 25:31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shallseparate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth hissheep from the goats:

 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gavethee drink?

 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of theleast of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Departfrom me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did itnot to me.

 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Edited February 11, 2015 by skalenfehl

[Vort]

 

"Elders of Israel are greedy after the things of this world. If you ask them if they are ready to build up the kingdom of God, their answer is prompt–"Why, to be sure we are, with our whole souls; but we want first to get so much gold, speculate and get rich, and then we can help the church considerably. We will go to California and get gold, go and buy goods and get rich, trade with the emigrants, build a mill, make a farm, get a large herd of cattle, and then we can do a great deal for Israel.

 

To be clear, here Nibley is quoting Brigham Young.

 

I have heard this many times from friends and relatives, but it is hokum. What they are saying is, “If God will give me a million dollars, I will let him have a generous cut of it.” And so they pray and speculate and expect the Lord to come through for them. He won’t do it: “And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property” (D&C 19:26). “Let them repent of all their sins, and of all their covetous desires, before me, saith the Lord; for what is property unto me? saith the Lord” (D&C 117:4). He does not need our property or our help.

 

Vintage Nibley. I have been told I would not have liked his politics, and though I'm not ready to accept that at face value, it may be true. But the guy had a gift for cutting to the heart of the matter.

[skalenfehl]

Hugh Nibley had a gift for calling it like it is. If he were alive today, saying all those same things, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he would be excommunicated. I don't put too much stock in the commentaries of church scholars, but Nibley and Gileadi are exceptions in my book. Without the words of the prophets, scholars would have no such  commentaries. 

 

This cracks me up:

 

Edited February 11, 2015 by skalenfehl

[Vort]

If he were alive today, saying all those same things, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he would be excommunicated.

 

And I would take that bet at 10:1 odds. Nibley was fiercely loyal both to the kingdom of God (aka the Church) and to its leaders. He could be withering toward the hypocritical membership, but never the leadership or the organization. The Brethren looked up to him as they did to few others, even though he did not agree with many of their social or political opinions. They looked up to him because they knew he was as faithful and humble as he was intelligent.

[skalenfehl]

On second thought, I do agree with you and take that back!    Nibley's comments were always about the church in general and not, as you say, about its leaders.

Edited February 11, 2015 by skalenfehl

[The Folk Prophet]

King Benjamin hit the nail squarely on the head when he taught his people what it means to be Zion. He made the hallmark of his address the care of the poor and the needy. He emphasized that if we are to "retain a remission of our sins," we are to succor those who need it without judgment.

 

 

 

Quote Mosiah 4:26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

 

 

Without disputing the truth of this by any means, I do think that there's a bit of a risk here in the potential implication(s) being made.

 

King Benjamin did teach that we must feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc., to gain salvation. But, without question, this is not the ONLY thing he taught that we must do.

[Vort]

By the way, skalenfehl, if you haven't already done so, you need to watch, listen to, or read (or maybe all three) the "Leaders and Managers" talk that you posted the first few moments of. If just one discourse has to be chosen as Nibley's "best" -- which would be a tragedy, so I hope it never comes to that -- that one might well be it.

[skalenfehl]

Oh, I definitely agree, Folk Prophet. He taught that we should strip ourselves of all ungodliness and more. But the point that he drove home with his address-the words he taught them as he was given instruction by an angel-was because of their "diligence" in the things he taught, the people were given a "new name." And because the people realized their own nothingness and because of their humility, the Spirit was poured out to them. And having been changed and given a new name (Christ), then King Benjamin emphasized that in order to retain a remission of their sins, they were to minister to those in need precisely as King Benjamin had just ministered to them, or rather, as the Lord had just ministered to them. We must abase ourselves continually to minister to those in need. We must lift them up just as Christ lifts us up. Thus we "retain" a remission of our sins. If Christ is eager in His infinite love to make us equal in heavenly things, we must make ourselves equal in earthly things first.

[askandanswer]

 

 

 

King Benjamin hit the nail squarely on the head when he taught his people what it means to be Zion. He made the hallmark of his address the care of the poor and the needy. He emphasized that if we are to "retain a remission of our sins," we are to succor those who need it without judgment.

 

Quote Mosiah 4:26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

 

Alma witnessed wickedness enter the church because the members lifted themselves up in their pride and idolatry and ignored the needy. It is the reason that he gave up the chief judge seat and undertook a ministry to "cleanse" the church beginning at Zarahemla:

 

 

We have this same inequality in our church. We call ourselves the true church, we covenant to obey the law of obedience, sacrifice, consecration, etc in the temple, and yet the very same wickedness and inequality is found in our church. We are getting further and further away from Zion. Joseph Smith fought an uphill battle and all we have done is make it a worldwide problem. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but speaking in general terms, and I include myself as part of the problem, but also part of the solution.

 

 

 

 

I think the above information, which some might interpret as suggesting that the church is not doing enough to succur those who need it, or perhaps not doing enough to impart unto the poor, needs to be balanced with the sort of information found at http://ldscharities.org/where-we-are?lang=eng or for a more detailed and comprehensive account, the annual report of LDS Charities, found at http://ldscharities.org/bc/ldscharities/content/english/articles/why-we-help/pdf/LDSC%202013%20Annual%20Report%204-page%20A4%20PD10050685.pdf. For example: "In 2013, LDS Charities helped more than 10.5 million people in 130 countries." This sort of information does not suggest a church (or church membership) that is excessively occupied with building up its material well-being. 

 

"Isaiah depicts this preoccupation with idols as false "worship," set in opposition to true worship. The Hebrew verb "worship" (abad) also means "work" (abad). Applying this dual meaning, whatever people work at, spend their energies and resources on, that is what they worship. 

 

This conclusion - that what we spend our work and effort on is what we worship - is not well supported by by the experience of the millions of people in rich and poor countries who absolutely hate, not worship, the work they have to do to survive, but they do it to survive, and not to build up material wealth. 

 

I agree with your point about the misuse of labels and note that Isaiah identified and warned against this practice more than 2,600 years ago when he said Isaiah 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 

 

Moses 7:18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

 

However, compare with Matthew 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you (I've included this just for some feather ruffling purposes :) )

 

In response to the suggestion that there might be something wrong with the workmanship of our hands, then I guess that part of the answer might be increased automation and mechanisation so that we are not using our hands as much :) But I think the problem is not so much the workmanship of our hands but how we respond to that workmanship. It was Aaron's hands which created the golden calf which people then worshipped, and it was the workmanship of the hands of the early Saints that built the Kirtland Temple, in which the people then worshipped and which Joseph Smith asked the Lord to accept (Doctrine and Covenants  Section 109:4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build.)

 

"Elders of Israel are greedy after the things of this world. If you ask them if they are ready to build up the kingdom of God, their answer is prompt–"Why, to be sure we are, with our whole souls; but we want first to get so much gold, speculate and get rich, and then we can help the church considerably. We will go to California and get gold, go and buy goods and get rich, trade with the emigrants, build a mill, make a farm, get a large herd of cattle, and then we can do a great deal for Israel.

 

And lets not forget that Brother Brigham was well known for his constant urging of the early pioneers to build up, add to, and beautify their valleys and do all they could to improve their physical well-being.  

 

I have heard this many times from friends and relatives, but it is hokum. What they are saying is, “If God will give me a million dollars, I will let him have a generous cut of it.” And so they pray and speculate and expect the Lord to come through for them. He won’t do it: “And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property” (D&C 19:26). “Let them repent of all their sins, and of all their covetous desires, before me, saith the Lord; for what is property unto me? saith the Lord” (D&C 117:4). 

 

Compare with Alma 34: 20 - 25 (and not forgetting vs 28). 

 

20. Cry unto him when ye are in your fields, yea, over all your flocks.

21  Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening.

22  Yea, cry unto him against the power of your enemies.

23  Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness.

24  Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them.

25  Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase.

 

These verses seem to suggest, even encourage, that it is good to pray for the Lord to bless us with material increase. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by askandanswer

[The Folk Prophet]

My concern, skalenfehl, is only within the context of this thread -- that there might be some greater truth or ideal out there that supplants the need for obedience to and understanding of the doctrines of the gospel. There is a strong implication throughout that doctrine is unimportant and or the wrong focus, and yet then both you and Traveler proceed to lecture doctrinally (covenants are doctrinal, feeding the hungry is doctrinal, etc.).

 

I'm trying to understand, frankly, what is it, exactly, that's being suggested by the too-focused-on-doctrine idea. Wherein is focus on doctrine mutually exclusive to the ideas you and Traveler present? I'm not following the criticism. If I'm focused on doctrine it automatically means I must not be feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.?  Well that doesn't follow at all.

 

Hence, I'm not disagreeing with you, in the slightest, as to the importance of these things (though I do think the way you're expressing the idea comes across as somewhat unfair to the many, many hard working, humble, servants in the church), but I do not see the point, or the original point made by Traveler, as persuasive commentary that we should focus less on doctrine.

[Crypto]

I agree. God seems to like to make people a Covenant people. That's what it is all about.

[skalenfehl]

askandanswer, the bottom line is that there is inequality among us. I agree that the "church" does a lot of good, does millions of dollars in charity, etc, as you have cited. I am referring to us all individually. I don't disagree that we are allowed to ask for increase. I believe that the Lord desires that we all prosper. What I am emphasizing is that we are to prosper equally. In Zion there are no poor. Jacob taught his people that they began to labor in sin. Two things that began to beset his brethren were seeking multiple wives and also seeking wealth. He taught that if we are going to seek wealth, we should so to lift others up. 

 

 

Jacob 2: 11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to theplainness of the word of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people.

 12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a land of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

 13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.

 14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

 15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his eye he can smite you to the dust!

 16 O that he would rid you from this iniquity and abomination. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls!

 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken unto you concerning pride; and those of you which have afflicted your neighbor, and persecuted him because ye were proud in your hearts, of the things which God hath given you, what say ye of it?

 21 Do ye not suppose that such things are abominable unto him who created all flesh? And the one being is as precious in his sight as the other. And all flesh is of the dust; and for the selfsame end hath he created them, that they should keep his commandments and glorify him forever.

 22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

 

Zion cannot exist if even one person lifts himself above another. To exalt one's self above another or above many others is in direct opposition to what Zion is about. Or as our Lord told Joseph Smith:

 

 

D&C 78: 4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

 5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

 6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equalin obtaining heavenly things;

 7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestialworld, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.

 

What is the point of living all the doctrines anyone can cite if we do not retain a remission of our sins? Folk Prophet, list all the doctrines of the church and I will say that they all fall under the law of the gospel, which we have covenanted to obey in the temple. And have we not covenanted to live the law of sacrifice, too? And also the law of consecration? I'm not addressing the many, hard working humble servants. I'm addressing the inequality. It exists. It doesn't supplant the need for obedience to the doctrines of the gospel. In fact, it falls under the scope of the doctrines of the gospel. It is central to it. Zion is the point and purpose of the gospel. How can we be Christ's if we are not one? How can we be one if we are not equal, or in other words, there are poor among us? How can we be Zion if we are not righteous? Or one heart and one mind? And how can we be one if we are not the same? How can we be the same if we are not equal? If there are rich and also poor, then we are not obeying the doctrine of Christ. It's all tied together. I hope this makes more sense. 

 

 

 

 

 

[pam]

The Folk Prophet said exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.  Our covenants are based on doctrine.  Without the doctrine we have no basis for some of the covenants we make.

 

The OP just didn't make sense to me.

[The Folk Prophet]

What is the point of living all the doctrines anyone can cite if we do not retain a remission of our sins? 

 

Impossible.

 

You're implying that we can live all the doctrines and then not go about feeding the poor, clothing the naked, etc. This is invalid. If anyone is not doing this, then that individual is are not living all the doctrines.

 

It's not rocket science. :)

 

I'm not addressing the many, hard working humble servants. 

 

Morality is not a group activity. Agency would not allow it. Morality is an individual choice. By claiming that "we" need to do better, you are saying that each and every individual must do better. Whereas this is true, it is still unfair to those who are striving to doing their parts.

 

I'm addressing the inequality. It exists. It doesn't supplant the need for obedience to the doctrines of the gospel. In fact, it falls under the scope of the doctrines of the gospel. It is central to it. Zion is the point and purpose of the gospel. How can we be Christ's if we are not one? How can we be one if we are not equal, or in other words, there are poor among us? How can we be Zion if we are not righteous? Or one heart and one mind? And how can we be one if we are not the same? How can we be the same if we are not equal? If there are rich and also poor, then we are not obeying the doctrine of Christ. It's all tied together. I hope this makes more sense. 

 

By implication you're saying that unless we're all saved then none of us are. That is, simply, not true.

[skalenfehl]

Ok, agreed. To rephrase, if one is living all the doctrines, then yes, one is feeding the poor and succoring the needy and elevating the least. As for your second point, that is not what I'm saying. An individual can live all the doctrines as you suggest and live according to Zion in one's life. I believe Zion can and does also exist in a family unit. But as a whole, as a membership, we are not Zion. This doesn't mean that those who are living a Zion life are not going to be saved. It simply means that they will be preserved to dwell in Zion when the Lord returns. But the bottom line is, in our church as a whole, there is inequality, which means not all of us are living up to all five laws, which we covenant to obey, including the law of consecration. Perhaps when we as a whole begin to do so, we may begin to live up to what it means to become one and thus truly prepare to usher in Zion. 

[estradling75]

 But as a whole, as a membership, we are not Zion. This doesn't mean that those who are living a Zion life are not going to be saved. It simply means that they will be preserved to dwell in Zion when the Lord returns.

 

 

You make this sound like it should be a startling revelation (and maybe it is to some)... But the parable of the wheat and the tares pretty much lays this out for us.  The Wheat and the Tares will grow up together and only when fully ripe can we tell the difference.  This leaves us with but few options.  To make sure we are ripening as a Wheat and not a Tares, and do our best to encourage others to ripen as Wheat and not Tares.  The Church leaders are pretty clear on what direction they are encouraging us to go..

[Blackmarch]

I have been a poster here for a few years.  I want to thank this forum and those that post here for many exchanges.  There is however, something that I think needs to be said.  Mostly I believe when we talk about our religion – be it LDS or otherwise – we seem to be focused on doctrine and our various opinions concerning doctrines than we are on our personal covenants.  I am posting and beginning this thread for several reasons; not least among which is my honest feeling that doctrines are way over emphasized in my mind.  In essence it would seem to me that we think of religion too much in terms of doctrine and not enough in consideration covenants; especially our individual sacred covenants with G-d.

 

Of course there is a correlation of doctrine with covenants – but I believe that our covenants are far more important than the doctrine we believe.  To begin with our covenants determine more of what we do and why we do it than doctrine.  To illustrate this concept with an example, consider the Sabbath.  In almost all discussions concerning the Sabbath there is both agreement and disagreement concerning the do’s and don’t’s concerning the Sabbath.  There is little discussion concerning what we as individuals have learned by and through our personal covenants concerning the Sabbath and to keep it holy.

 

Many have debated the nature of G-d but few share openly how their covenants have drawn them closer to G-d and help them understand him and our relationship to him.  An example here – more than any lesson concerning G-d – I have come to understand our Father in Heaven (G-d) most by my commitment and experience to be a father to my children and husband to my wife from my personal marriage covenant than from any doctrine I have read or discussed concerning the nature of G-d.

 

Many times I have highlighted what I think a poster may have missed because they seem to be focused too much, in my view, on doctrines rather than on their covenants.  If I have offended anyone (and I know I have because or points given to me by forum monitors for doing so) I apologize – I am sorry for that.  My person covenant is more along the lines of comforting the afflicted first and if I fell necessary to afflict the comfortable; than it is to straighten out anyone's understanding of doctrine.  I really do not think doctrine is that important compared to the covenants that we live every moment of our lives by.

this is an internet forum. how people have behaved in general here has been generally quite abit better than other forums I have been on. Everyone has their own insight and their own way of doing things.

 

If you are honorable before the Lord, then that is good.

If a doctrine has been revealed to you as of God, and you don't take it into account when you make a promise before God, things can get complicated, to say the least.

If a doctrine has not been revealed to you by God, then you have some leeway in how you go about accepting it (or not).... however this is where and why being of a contrite heart and a  humble spirit, and always seeking comes into play, and one of the reasons it is important.

Because it's it's public, it's the internet which makes evryone anonymous, and because personal covenants are private i'd figure that the focus in open discussion will almost always go the doctrine route.

PS i've found your posts generally to be of a pretty high caliber.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Traveler]

Perhaps some more example of what I believe to be too much focus on doctrine and not enough on covenant.  But before I go to the details I want to present a couple of ideas.  The first is from Isaiah 28:10 .  One may want to consider more than just this verse in this chapter.  The doctrine concerning how G-d delivers his doctrine is in essence in bits and pieces – not a whole or complete understanding at any given time.  The second idea is simple enough and that is that neither our covenants nor our doctrine or understanding of doctrine should not ever contradict the other but my point is that often our covenant behavior fall behind our understanding of doctrine.   The final idea is that as we learn line upon line and precept upon precept of doctrine that we progress not by study alone but by applying what we have learned through our covenants.   

 

Consider with me the importance of covenant in understanding doctrine.  I submit that we may have an understanding of the doctrine of prayer and we can even study all the various scripture and talks from prophets but the power of prayer can only be sustained through a covenant to pray - often.  How often???? This is not a matter of doctrine but of personal covenant.  

 

Example #1:  1 Nephi 3:7  How was it that Nephi “KNEW” that the Lord would prepare a way for him to get the plates of Laban?  What was the difference between Nephi and his two older brothers?  I submit that the difference was not that Laman and Lemual had not been exposed to the doctrine of living by the command of G-d.  The difference was that Nephi had made a personal covenant.  

 

Example #2:  Comes from an exchange between Isaiah and king Ahaz in Isaiah 7:1-9  In verse 9 Isaiah says something very interesting – here it is in its original: “im lo ta’ amini ki lo te amenu”  - This is an interesting play on words and can in essence be translated as “if you do not believe it – it is because you are not loyal”  Or as I would put it here – “If you do not believe this it is because you have not kept your covenant with G-d.  Ahaz being a King and successor of King David was bound by the Davidic covenant given to David in the book of 1^st Kings.  This is a most interesting concept – I believe it means that one will not even believe that specifics of any particular doctrine apply to them unless they have been faithful and loyal in keeping previous commandments by covenant.  

 

How do I apply all this – for example as we discuss what to do on the Sabbath – we may express different ideas concerning what of church we attend while on vacation.  I submit that the difference is not because of doctrine or in the words we all study in scripture but in how we apply the commandments of G-d in our lives through personal covenants.  I would encourage that we think more in terms of covenants in that we make personal commitment and promise to do, on a regular and consistent basis, what we learn or are instructed from of study of G-d’s word than it is to think that it is a fun doctrine to believe.  So this is what I suggest – the next time you go on vacation – promise G-d, according to your understanding of the doctrine of keeping the Sabbath holy; what you specifically plan and will do for your Sunday activity.  Try it for yourself and see if it makes a difference in how you understand the doctrine to keep the Sabbath holy.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

Traveler,

 

I think what you're expressing here in the latest post is accurate. My only concern in your original post (as I've said) is that there seems to be an implication that we should focus less on doctrine and more on covenants, rather than the idea that we should simply focus more on covenants, without focusing any less on doctrine.

 

I also think, perhaps (if I read you right) that it would be more clearly stated as a comparison of learning and doing. If I am reading you right, you're basically saying that we are hypocrites when we preach, teach, learn, study, etc., the doctrines but then do not actually do what we preach, teach, learn, and study about.

 

In this point, I agree.

[skalenfehl]

You make this sound like it should be a startling revelation (and maybe it is to some)... But the parable of the wheat and the tares pretty much lays this out for us.  The Wheat and the Tares will grow up together and only when fully ripe can we tell the difference.  This leaves us with but few options.  To make sure we are ripening as a Wheat and not a Tares, and do our best to encourage others to ripen as Wheat and not Tares.  The Church leaders are pretty clear on what direction they are encouraging us to go..

 

For a century and a half, the saints have covenanted to live the law of consecration. For a century and a half, we have yet to live the law of consecration. I am left to ask myself a few questions:

 

-Have the saints been waiting for their prophet to command them in all things? Or more specifically, are we waiting for President Monson to tell us that as we have covenanted to obey this law for the building up of Zion, that it is finally time to begin?

-Is President Monson waiting for the Lord to instruct him that it is finally time for us to be commanded to live this law, which we have long since covenanted to obey, so that the Lord can finally bring forth Zion?

-Or maybe our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ is waiting for us to rise up and rather than be commanded to do so, be "up and doing" what we have covenanted to do already and begin coming together to not only "say, but to do."

 

These are the options that I see. But as you say, do our best to encourage others to ripen as wheat. As an elder, teacher, and priest in the church, my calling is to preach, teach, expound, exhort, watch over the church always and to be with and strengthen the membership, etc. and be a watchman upon the wall. I know what our leaders have clearly encouraged us to do all my life. I have done my best to do so and continue to do my best to do so with an eye single to the glory of our King, with all my heart, might, mind and strength that I may stand blameless before God at the last day. But I am only one voice crying out in the wilderness. The time is drawing near. I know I must sound like a broken record, but the message has been the same for dispensations.

 

Traveler used the Sabbath as one example in the message he is trying to drive home to us. Mine is the law of consecration, or rather, to labor for Zion. It has been four and five generations. One hundred, eighty years is long enough. O, God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? Stretch forth thy hand. Let thine eye pierce. Let thy pavilion be taken up. Let thy hiding place be no longer covered. Let thine ear be inclined. Let thine heart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us!

 

It's obvious to me that someone is waiting for someone else to do something.