All Is Well In Zion

[JojoBag]

As I was reading the 28^th chapter of 2^nd Nephi in the Book of Mormon this morning, I was struck by how well many Latter-day Saints are fulfilling the prophecies in this chapter: “All is well in Zion.” I've lived in three different countries and the attitude is the same no matter where I've been. It doesn't change from country to country or ward to ward. All too many members are content with believing that they will learn everything they need to know to gain their exaltation from attending church.

 

I like to talk to various members regarding various points of doctrine and principle. I listen to comments made in priesthood and Sunday school and it's pretty much the same thing. Many members are uninformed as to what has been taught by church leaders in the past and even now. They do nothing to gain knowledge and intelligence. For that matter, they don't even know what is the definition of intelligence.

 

When I moved back to the U.S., the first thing I did was to implement a crash program to get my food storage and ordered a lot of wheat. I made announcements in Elder's Quorum that I was trying to get orders to make up a large enough order for the wheat to be delivered directly to my home. I made this announcement more than once. Not one single person was interested. My neighbor did make a sizable order.

 

What I did get were some comments that left me shaking my head. The Elder's Quorum president said that he had a bunch of alfalfa and then one of his counselors said he had a couple cows and they could trade. Other comments involved hunting, etc. When I talked to my neighbor and asked about buying one of their calves to raise and slaughter, she told me her husband wouldn't even slaughter one for his own family. He got too much money for each cow and they could buy their beef from the store. All was well in Zion. This is the prevailing attitude in every single ward I've ever been in.

 

There is an interesting correlation that may or may not mean anything, but it is interesting. I was reading the book, “Life Everlasting,” by Duane Crowther and came across a quote by Elder Heber C. Kimball. He doubted that more than 5% of Latter-day Saints would enter the Celestial Kingdom. Then, several months later, I read a conference report that cited a 1976 study from the University of Utah regarding the food storage of LDS. Only 5% had a year supply of grain products.

 

By itself, this correlation doesn't mean all that much, but when I look at other items, I begin to think that Elder Kimball was right. The activity rate of the church is somewhere around 35% and among the YSA it is only 15%. I look at the home teaching rates, which aren't very good at all. In the last 22 years I've only had one consistent home teacher. I hear the same thing, time and time again from other members. In the past three months, I've asked the Elder's Quorum president four times for a home teaching route and have yet to be assigned one.

 

Then I look at things like modesty. Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity. What I see are women and the men who condone it, dressing to what they think is modest, yet is against what you see as examples on the church web site. What I see among the members is modesty according to the world. I also see members, both men and women who have the latest, fancy fashions thinking they are being modest. This goes completely against scripture.

 

And again, thou shalt not be proud in thy heart; let all thy garments be plain, and their beauty the beauty of the work of thine own hands;

(Doctrine and Covenants 42:40)

 

 

 

What do your clothes look like? I see both sides of the coin. The world tells men and women, “dress for success, dress for attention, to look sharp, to stand out from the crowd; if you've got it, flaunt it, etc.” Then I see those who don't care one bit what they look like. You get the 300 pound woman in yoga pants or the 400 pound man in Speedo's and tank top that doesn't cover his belly. Then there are those who dress, not to conform, not to get attention, but to conceal their body. It isn't that they are ashamed of their bodies, but they respect the temple God gave them. Their dress demonstrates their inner commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I'll once again go back to one of my pet peeves with the LDS: lack of knowledge. One of the most prevalent things I have found among the LDS is a contentment with thinking that they will be taught everything they need to know in Church: the basics. They don't come right out and say this, but it is obvious when I listen to their comments. Joseph Smith said that knowledge is salvation. The basics only give you a foundation for the necessary higher knowledge.

 

The basics are attending church each week, reading the scriptures daily and praying twice each day. That's it. Saying that doing the basics are enough is like saying the average sixth grader knows enough to graduate from high school. What about the advanced subjects like regular temple attendance, faithful home/visiting teaching, family history work, church assignments, charity, etc. How about the one temple recommend question that always makes me think before I answer it: Are you honest in all your dealings?

 

And then, there is faith. You can be a very nice person: giving, charitable, attend church, yadda, yadda, yadda, but if you don't have the necessary faith, you won't return to your Heavenly Father. Our faith is to be childlike. A child believes anything you tell him. Do we believe the correct principles we are taught or does our worldly education get in the way? We believe in Christ, but do we believe Christ? Do we believe that he can and will heal us? Do we believe that he his atonement will save us?

 

I doubt my own ability to return to my Heavenly Father. I'm pretty sure that Elder Kimball was right.

[Guest]

What is your definition of intelligence?

 

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Maybe some of those guys already had plenty of wheat. Maybe the guy who raises cattle uses the money he makes to buy food storage that's more useful for his family. If I put even a half cow in the freezer, it would all be freezer burnt before we got to it. We don't eat a ton of beef. What food storage we do keep us for us to know.

 

Honestly, what anyone else is wearing is none of your business. "Neat and comely" is pretty subjective. I can manage to be pretty nicely dressed on thrift clothes, and I know I spend a lot less than my friends do on clothes (I've been shopping with them). But they are stronger in other areas than I am, even if I am more frugal than many of them are. 

 

Pride is an enormous sin that we've been repeatedly warned against. Pride can manifest itself as taking stock in what you've done and seeing how much better you're doing than someone else. Pride often points fingers. Pride looks outward. 

 

Humility looks inward. I'm sure there are things in your own house that need to be put in order, as is true for all of us. That's where your focus ought to be. After that, maybe you can entreat your home teaching families to increase their preparedness, but in my experience, belittling and guilt doesn't accomplish much. Invite and entice to do good, and do so to those in your stewardship. Bear your testimony of the things you've learned. But don't belittle and chasten. It's not your place. 

[Crypto]

I can see both JojoBag's and Eowyn's perspectives. There is certainly a time and place for exortation which members are often slow todo, and everyone and every ward has theirown weaknesses. On the otherside, I see self righteousness in the judging of others as a Major problem as well, something that I keep encountering... many times before.

I can't say who I agree with more. I can say, that I don't like to jump on my local wards gossip and judgement bandwagon...but I certainly struggle myself in judgement against those who I see as exercising unjust, unrigteous, hypocritial, or unchrsitlike judgement.

My 2 cents.

In good news, I do think there are several good points JojoBagbrings up.
 

• Always seek further light and knowledge
• Listen to the prophets, that includes things such as food storage, and visiting members
• People like to rationalize sloth and sin. Try not to do it
• Modesty is important, don't be of the world
• It's okay to not give the cookie cutter answers in church, so long as you build on them.
• Build faith.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Crypto

[BeccaKirstyn]

In the end, the Lord knows the intent of our heart and the actions we have made here on Earth. Sometimes the basics is all we can manage in our time of trial. Sometimes the basics is all our testimony is able to survive on. The basics are the sure foundation in which we can find faith and hope in Christ as our Savior. When we are strong in that foundation, then we can continue to build upon it. 

 

I can tell you that the home teaching/visiting teaching rates in my YSA ward are pretty mediocre. But I have never been in a more loving ward in my life. These members love and care for one another in a way I have never seen. These actions in my opinion are more telling than home teaching/visiting teaching rates.

 

While we should be concerned with other members and if they are doing okay, we are responsible for our own salvation. We should be focused on what we're doing and if we could be doing more (which is always a yes). 

[mirkwood]

Food storage?  Bah....I don't even have guns.

[Guest]

Food storage?  Bah....I don't even have guns.

<cough> 

 

Woe unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell...

[AnnieCarvalho]

As I was reading the 28^th chapter of 2^nd Nephi in the Book of Mormon this morning, I was struck by how well many Latter-day Saints are fulfilling the prophecies in this chapter: “All is well in Zion.”

 

I'm recently reading the BOM through again and I also was struck by this chapter.

 

When I moved back to the U.S., the first thing I did was to implement a crash program to get my food storage and ordered a lot of wheat. 

 

Many of my friends and family also think I"m a lunatic for storing food. We'll see whose house they run to when the SHTF.

This is one warning I can see happening clearly before my eyes, week by week. Here in the CA desert, organic milk went up in price over $1.50 in two weeks. In Hawaii, a gallon of milk is over $10 in some places.

 

What I did get were some comments that left me shaking my head. The Elder's Quorum president said that he had a bunch of alfalfa and then one of his counselors said he had a couple cows and they could trade. Other comments involved hunting, etc. When I talked to my neighbor and asked about buying one of their calves to raise and slaughter, she told me her husband wouldn't even slaughter one for his own family. He got too much money for each cow and they could buy their beef from the store. All was well in Zion. This is the prevailing attitude in every single ward I've ever been in.

 

Not just single wards. People think it's funny and quaint to be working on a year's supply.

Again, we'll see who shows up at the door along with the wolf.

 

There is an interesting correlation that may or may not mean anything, but it is interesting. I was reading the book, “Life Everlasting,” by Duane Crowther and came across a quote by Elder Heber C. Kimball. He doubted that more than 5% of Latter-day Saints would enter the Celestial Kingdom. Then, several months later, I read a conference report that cited a 1976 study from the University of Utah regarding the food storage of LDS. Only 5% had a year supply of grain products.

 

And there is no reason for it. The Bishop's Storehouse makes it available at a very reasonable cost and even if a person only budgeted $10-20 each month, they could build up a good food supply in a year.

 

By itself, this correlation doesn't mean all that much, but when I look at other items, I begin to think that Elder Kimball was right. The activity rate of the church is somewhere around 35% and among the YSA it is only 15%. I look at the home teaching rates, which aren't very good at all. In the last 22 years I've only had one consistent home teacher. I hear the same thing, time and time again from other members. In the past three months, I've asked the Elder's Quorum president four times for a home teaching route and have yet to be assigned one.

 

This also makes me sad. I've asked several times for a calling that I can do from home. I know there are callings available. For instance, our church calendar is not kept by anyone - that's something I could do. I could call or write to sisters who are inactive, but I've asked for a Visiting Teaching assignment also without response. I haven't seen a Home Teacher in 10 years. I did have a nice Visiting Teacher in my last ward and a Missionary Sister visits me regularly in my new ward. So at least that's a positive.

 

Then I look at things like modesty. Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity. What I see are women and the men who condone it, dressing to what they think is modest, yet is against what you see as examples on the church web site. What I see among the members is modesty according to the world. I also see members, both men and women who have the latest, fancy fashions thinking they are being modest. This goes completely against scripture.

 

Modesty in our ward seems to be pretty well adhered to. 

One of my granddaughters, on the other hand, frightens me. 

I have to wonder where her mother's head is... but I also have to keep peace in the family, so without the funds to go buy a new wardrobe, I keep my mouth shut. I did offer to teach her to sew her own clothes, hoping I could somehow influence her.

 

What do your clothes look like? I see both sides of the coin. The world tells men and women, “dress for success, dress for attention, to look sharp, to stand out from the crowd; if you've got it, flaunt it, etc.” Then I see those who don't care one bit what they look like. You get the 300 pound woman in yoga pants or the 400 pound man in Speedo's and tank top that doesn't cover his belly. Then there are those who dress, not to conform, not to get attention, but to conceal their body. It isn't that they are ashamed of their bodies, but they respect the temple God gave them. Their dress demonstrates their inner commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I went to the market the other day, and a lady came out in her pajamas with two children in tow, also in pajamas.

I could only wonder how this came to be ok... no pride, no self-esteem? 

I try not to be judgmental, but I know I am.

 

I wonder if it's a generational issue?

I remember being a teenager and going to my grandmother's house.

My cousin and I got all dressed up, put on our makeup, then went to town barefoot.

My grandmother thought that was the funniest thing!

I remember wearing jeans with patches, and some pretty grungy clothes as a teen when I was with friends.

But if I went anywhere with my folks, I was expected to dress appropriately.

My grandparents reared me - they were Methodist, not LDS.

 

I'll once again go back to one of my pet peeves with the LDS: lack of knowledge. One of the most prevalent things I have found among the LDS is a contentment with thinking that they will be taught everything they need to know in Church: the basics. They don't come right out and say this, but it is obvious when I listen to their comments. Joseph Smith said that knowledge is salvation. The basics only give you a foundation for the necessary higher knowledge.

 

The basics are attending church each week, reading the scriptures daily and praying twice each day. That's it. Saying that doing the basics are enough is like saying the average sixth grader knows enough to graduate from high school.

 

I think it's important to further study, but sometimes people don't realize what resources are available to them.

I'm studying the BOM for the umpteenth time, but this time I'm using the Seminary Study Manual which I got online.

I'm learning so much more, reading slowly and reading the manual.

Why hasn't someone suggested this to me before, I wonder?

A great resource.

 

What about the advanced subjects like regular temple attendance, faithful home/visiting teaching, family history work, church assignments, charity, etc. How about the one temple recommend question that always makes me think before I answer it: Are you honest in all your dealings?

 

I think most members do their best with these things.

But, as you mentioned, it's difficult to magnify your calling when those in charge don't give you one?

 

And then, there is faith. You can be a very nice person: giving, charitable, attend church, yadda, yadda, yadda, but if you don't have the necessary faith, you won't return to your Heavenly Father. Our faith is to be childlike. A child believes anything you tell him. Do we believe the correct principles we are taught or does our worldly education get in the way? We believe in Christ, but do we believe Christ? Do we believe that he can and will heal us? Do we believe that he his atonement will save us?

 

These are some of the questions I struggle with each day.

There is a difference between believing and knowing. 

Yes, worldly education CAN and DOES get in the way, as I mentioned in another thread a few weeks back.

And there are times I wish I wasn't as educated and just had childlike faith.

Once lost, it's difficult to get back.

 

I doubt my own ability to return to my Heavenly Father. I'm pretty sure that Elder Kimball was right.

 

I enjoyed your post and it did me good to think about these questions you asked.

Thanks.

Edited November 7, 2015 by AnnieCarvalho

[Guest]

In priesthood, we were talking about being prepared for another economic slump.  Someone mentioned food storage.  Someone else said,"It doesn't matter if you have food storage if you don't have ammo."

 

There was some back and forth. "I'll just take my ammo and come to your place."

 

After some of it had calmed down I said, "I guess it's a good thing that I've got plenty of both." :)

 

Everyone looked at me like I was Silent Bob.  

****************************************************************************

I was giving a seminar on prepping to a diverse crowd.  Someone humorously opined, "Well, if we have a collapse, I'm just coming to your house."

 

I said, "As a Mormon, I believe in the principal of charity.  As a Mormon, I believe in providing for my family.  As a Mormon I believe in the Constitution as a divinely inspired document.  That includes the 2nd Amendment... Take that as you will."

[JojoBag]

First off, I'll go my Elder Bednar's definition of intelligence, as in "the glory of God is intelligence."  Intelligence consists of three things.

1.  Gaining spiritual knowledge.  There is a lot of useless knowledge out there, especially many things taught in school.

2.  Receive an understanding of that knowledge through the Holy Spirit. 

3.  Implementing that knowledge and understanding in your life.

 

Regarding modesty, what I've done s make an observation and compared it to the genuine church standards.  I see a major difference between what most LDS think is modest and what is actually modest.  I'll say it again.  Look on the church web site to see what the standards are.  The so-called "standards of modesty" the majority of men and women in the church keep are heavily influenced by the world.  I believe the reason for this is a lack of knowledge.

 

As for the food storage, one thing I forgot to say was that the Elders making the comments started out with, "I don't need wheat," just prior to their comments about alfalfa and cows.  Again, they lack knowledge.  One of the prophecies for the last days was that live stock would be wiped out.  This has started.  If you know anything about what is happening in the poultry industry, you will realize that the bird flu has resulted in nearly 100 million birds being killed in the U.S. and it's getting worse.

 

The vast majority of LDS simply have a very serious lack of knowledge.  It is going to cost them their eternal salvation.

[NeuroTypical]

"Well, if we have a collapse, I'm just coming to your house."

 

 

Ah memories.  From back in 2009:

 

Top 10 responses to "Oh, if something bad happens, I'll just come to your house!"

10. Not without six months of your own supplies, you won't.

9. Yeah, your family means so little to you, I'll be sure to pick up your slack. Why don't you bring all your credit card debt while you're at it.

8. Sweet! We needed a decoy to walk the wire and be the first person shot!

7. Just be sure you show up with a ladder. Not sure how many corpses you'll have to climb over.

6. I may give you the shirt off my back, but try to take it, and I can only spare half a buck worth of subsonic copper hollow-points.

5. Hey, bring all the barter goods you want - I love to haggle. A roll of TP will get you past the dogs.

4. Be sure to bring some good boots, cuz you'll be up to your ankles in horse crap earning your keep.

3. Fine by me. I hear people taste like chicken.

2. Make sure you come early - the first five help me shoot the next fifty.

#1 is a tie:

1. "Don't do that, Mommy will just shoot you and make Daddy bury you in the backyard." (Are my kids great or what?)

1. "What, you thought I was gonna bunker down somewhere people can find me?" (Note found in my empty house)

[The Folk Prophet]

Message self-edited for the sheer rudeness of it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

 

I can see both JojoBag's and Eowyn's perspectives. There is certainly a time and place for exortation which members are often slow todo, and everyone and every ward has theirown weaknesses. On the otherside, I see self righteousness in the judging of others as a Major problem as well, something that I keep encountering... many times before.

I can't say who I agree with more. I can say, that I don't like to jump on my local wards gossip and judgement bandwagon...but I certainly struggle myself in judgement against those who I see as exercising unjust, unrigteous, hypocritial, or unchrsitlike judgement.

 

This sums up how I see it as well.  Though if I had to chose, I would go with Eowyn.  I think we should hold ourselves to a high standard (those things Jojobag mentioned included) but I think we should just love everyone else.  

Edited November 9, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[The Folk Prophet]

I think we should hold ourselves to a high standard (those things Jojobag mentioned included) but I think we should just love everyone else.  

 

I agree with this except for the bolded.

Edited November 9, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[erog84]

When I think about members today, I mostly think about the Pharisees back in Christs time.  It seems to me that now a days we focus sooooo much on the letter of the law, and forget why we have it.  The law was made for Man, not the other way around.  I, like everyone else is guilty of this, but it seems like we have bought into that we were made for the law.  Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

What does that mean?

[The Folk Prophet]

When I think about members today, I mostly think about the Pharisees back in Christs time. It seems to me that now a days we focus sooooo much on the letter of the law, and forget why we have it. The law was made for Man, not the other way around. I, like everyone else is guilty of this, but it seems like we have bought into that we were made for the law. Just my 2 cents.

Comments like this mostly just tell me how little the one commenting actually knows about the Pharisees of old, what the importance of "the law" is, and the teachings in the Book of Mormon on the keeping of the law.

[Traveler]

It seems to me that whatever we focus on - it is the things we as individuals think that we have well inline. It seems to me that regardless of what we do or what we think we have in line that when the Messiah returns we will find that we are very unprepared in something. The most common theme in the Book of Mormon is that the righteous need not fear – this scares me more than anything else in scripture about being prepared.

Whatever we are doing – I do not believe we can qualify for being righteous and not needing to fear if our primary focus for doing whatever we are doing is for ourselves and letting any saint deal with things without our care and assistance. Thus I have concluded that it is not possible for me to accumulate enough “physical” things to be ready. If we prioritize things we are doing – I would suggest that we concentrate first on our marriage and family covenants. Even before our church callings. If I were to ask my beloved wife for a list of thing I could do to improve our family – I am quite sure that list, of itself, is sufficient for me to worry and be concerned. I do have food storage and other things prepared – but I honestly believe that saints (myself included) have more important things to worry about.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Traveler

[erog84]

Comments like this mostly just tell me how little the one commenting actually knows about the Pharisees of old, what the importance of "the law" is, and the teachings in the Book of Mormon on the keeping of the law.

 

Well I am not Pharisee historian, so I won't claim I KNOW all those things you mention.  I am simply going off my basic understanding.  If you like I can rephrase my words.  In regards to the OP, "All is well in zion", my thoughts on the matter are that we as members focus too much on the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law. 

[LeSellers]

[M]y thoughts on the matter are that we as members focus too much on the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law.

Hiding behind "the spirit of the law' often becomes an excuse for ignoring the law altogether.

Of the two extremes, I believe that obeying the spirit of the law is far better than avoiding it.

Jess me, doncha know.

Lehi

[The Folk Prophet]

Well I am not Pharisee historian, so I won't claim I KNOW all those things you mention.  I am simply going off my basic understanding.

 

Your understanding that the current members adherence to obedience has any resemblance to the Pharisees of old is wrong.

 

To properly qualify, members would need to make up a bunch of uninspired rules created by men, adhere to them strictly, while actually disobeying the rules and laws of God.

 

If you believe our current rules (as in the Handbook of instructions and other polices) are man made and not inspired of God, then you are also wrong. But if you believe that they are, as our inspired prophets and apostles have told us, from God and that God directs this church and it's practices, then adherence to those laws is nothing like the Pharisees, and requisite for our standing before God.

 

As to the Book of Mormon, for a greater understanding of the law, read and study 2 Nephi 25 - specifically vs. 23-28

 

Note, for example:

 

"yet we keep the law because of the commandments."

 

and

 

"And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law."

 

Also see the next chapter, vs 1:

 

"And after Christ shall have risen from the dead he shall show himself unto you, my children, and my beloved brethren; and the words which he shall speak unto you shall be the law which ye shall do."

 

These are only a few small examples of the importance of the law (or obedience). It doesn't take much reading in the Book of Mormon and/or the D&C to see the importance of strict obedience.

 

To claim that strict obedience and adherence to the law is Pharisaical is mistaken -- even in the context of missing the Spirit of the Law. This is not what the Pharisees were guilty of. Have your read Christ's condemnations of them? 

 

for example:

Matt 23:3

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Note: no obedience).

 

vs 4

...but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (note: no action (no obedience)).

 

vs 23

...and have omitted the weightier matters of the law (note: omitting part of the law is disobedience).

 

vs 28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Iniquity = sin = disobedience).

 

vs 34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (note: does murder and torture sound like obedience to you?)

 

Mark 7:7-8

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men... (Note: the commandments of men are what the Pharisees taught).

 

and vs 9:

Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

etc...

 

I do not disagree with the idea that some, certainly, need to focus more on the spirit of the law. I also agree wholeheartedly with LeSellers that one cannot follow the spirit of the law by denying the letter of it. (Though I do have to ask -- how on earth could you possibly know the intents of "too many members" hearts and thereby know whether they are or are not within the spirit of the law? I faithfully do my home teaching every month and then someone like you comes along and determines that my heart is not right because I'm only following the letter of the law? How would you know? And if that's the case, then who, may I ask, is doing it right? Certainly not those who fail to do their home teaching faithfully every month.)

 

Either way, the comparison to Pharisees is mistaken. The Pharisees were not obedient to the commandments of God. If the comparison was, instead, those members who were not obedient to Pharisees, then I'm with you. All this made up love your neighbor right out of the church stuff, for example by the likes of John Dehlin. Call that sort of thing Pharisaical and we're getting somewhere.

[erog84]

Hiding behind "the spirit of the law' often becomes an excuse for ignoring the law altogether.

Of the two extremes, I believe that obeying the spirit of the law is far better than avoiding it.

Jess me, doncha know.

Lehi

 

I don't disagree, but I never said otherwise.  And I never brought up a discussion for both extremes, simply that we as members (myself included) sometimes get so caught up on the letter of the law, that we miss the spirit of it.

[erog84]

Your understanding that the current members adherence to obedience has any resemblance to the Pharisees of old is wrong.

Ok

 

To properly qualify, members would need to make up a bunch of uninspired rules created by men, adhere to them strictly, while actually disobeying the rules and laws of God.

 

If you believe our current rules (as in the Handbook of instructions and other polices) are man made and not inspired of God, then you are also wrong.  But if you believe that they are, as our inspired prophets and apostles have told us, from God and that God directs this church and it's practices, then adherence to those laws is nothing like the Pharisees, and requisite for our standing before God.

If the Pharisees are as you say, I have no problem with agreeing that our current adherence to the law is nothing like the Pharisees.

 

As to the Book of Mormon, for a greater understanding of the law, read and study 2 Nephi 25 - specifically vs. 23-28

 

Note, for example:

 

"yet we keep the law because of the commandments."

 

and

 

"And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law."

 

Also see the next chapter, vs 1:

 

"And after Christ shall have risen from the dead he shall show himself unto you, my children, and my beloved brethren; and the words which he shall speak unto you shall be the law which ye shall do."

 

These are only a few small examples of the importance of the law (or obedience). It doesn't take much reading in the Book of Mormon and/or the D&C to see the importance of strict obedience.

I don't believe I ever claimed we shouldn't follow the law (if I did, please show me so I can correct this).  My point once again, is that we focus so much on we have to do this, we have to do that, that we lose sight of the reasons why(besides strict obedience).

 

To claim that strict obedience and adherence to the law is Pharisaical is mistaken -- even in the context of missing the Spirit of the Law. This is not what the Pharisees were guilty of. Have your read Christ's condemnations of them?  I am not sure if this was meant as rhetorical or if you truly think that I have never read the new testament or the BOM (I have both, many times).

 

for example:

Matt 23:3

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Note: no obedience).

 

vs 4

...but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. (note: no action (no obedience)).

 

vs 23

...and have omitted the weightier matters of the law (note: omitting part of the law is disobedience).

 

vs 28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Iniquity = sin = disobedience).

 

vs 34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (note: does murder and torture sound like obedience to you?)

 

Mark 7:7-8

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men... (Note: the commandments of men are what the Pharisees taught).

 

and vs 9:

Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

etc...

 

I do not disagree with the idea that some, certainly, need to focus more on the spirit of the law. I also agree wholeheartedly with LeSellers that one cannot follow the spirit of the law by denying the letter of it. (Though I do have to ask -- how on earth could you possibly know the intents of "too many members" hearts and thereby know whether they are or are not within the spirit of the law? I faithfully do my home teaching every month and then someone like you comes along and determines that my heart is not right because I'm only following the letter of the law? How would you know? And if that's the case, then who, may I ask, is doing it right? Certainly not those who fail to do their home teaching faithfully every month.)  None of us truly know the intentions/hearts of others, but we make judgement calls EVERY day, and we base our actions on these calls.  In my experience, in my own judgement (which I am sure is faulty plenty of times), I believe that some members of the church start to believe that "all is well in zion" because they follow the strict letter of the law.  In my own thoughts, I believe the letter of the law is important, but that we shouldn't lose sight of the spirit of the law (as you also seem to agree on).  That is all I was trying to point out, not condemning others, not sayign we should ignore the letter of the law, or anything else.

 

As far as home teaching, I am not even sure how you made that jump.  Once again, I don't believe I have ever claimed that you shouldn't follow the letter of the law.  But let me give you an example.  Home teacher A shows up, even after a hard day at work, tries to give an uplifting message hoping that in some way it will help that family out, and then leaves.  Home Teacher B shows up, lets you know that the only reason he is there is to make sure to cross off that list that he did his home teaching, chit chats about random things for a few minutes then leaves.   According to Teacher B, they both did the letter of the law, but I would say that teacher A, in my own judgement, also followed the spirit of the law.  I have great respect for BOTH teachers, taking the time out to stop by four your families once a month is a commitment and so I don't look down upon teacher B at all.  My point is that we as members of the church need to try to be more like teacher A, less like B.

 

Either way, the comparison to Pharisees is mistaken. The Pharisees were not obedient to the commandments of God. If the comparison was, instead, those members who were not obedient to Pharisees, then I'm with you. All this made up love your neighbor right out of the church stuff, for example by the likes of John Dehlin. Call that sort of thing Pharisaical and we're getting somewhere.

I will have to read more into the Pharisees, but you probably are correct in that regard.  I have never read anything from John Dehlin, so I can't speak to your comparison there.

[Vort]

Hiding behind "the spirit of the law' often becomes an excuse for ignoring the law altogether.

Of the two extremes, I believe that obeying the spirit of the law is far better than avoiding it.

Jess me, doncha know.

Lehi

 

In my experience, obeying the spirit of the law is almost always much more difficult than obeying merely the letter.

[Vort]

 

Well I am not Pharisee historian, so I won't claim I KNOW all those things you mention.  I am simply going off my basic understanding.  If you like I can rephrase my words.  In regards to the OP, "All is well in zion", my thoughts on the matter are that we as members focus too much on the letter of the law, instead of the spirit of the law. 

 

My understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus' problem with the Pharisees is not that they were super-observant or zealous, but that they were hypocrites. This seems to be the one character trait that Jesus just could not support.

 

Hypocrisy is not merely proclaiming beliefs that one doesn't live up to. By that definition, we are all hypocrites. And we are not all hypocrites. Rather, the central idea of hypocrisy is a "false face". We pretend to be someone that we absolutely are not. Think politicians. That is hypocrisy. If we are trying to be loving and patient even when we don't feel loving or patient, that is not hypocrisy, it is us trying to be and do better. But when we put on the mask of virtue when, in reality, we have no virtuous intent at all, we are hypocrites. Thus were many of the ancient Pharisees, and thus the Lord warned us against.

[Connie]

In my experience, obeying the spirit of the law is almost always much more difficult than obeying merely the letter.

 

I agree. The spirit of the law is the letter and then some.