Trying to save my Marriage

[omegaseamaster75]

On 11/4/2016 at 10:39 PM, Mcmkk said:

I absolutely want my baby to grow up in a happy healthy home. I need to go see a counselor by myself and read those books. I feel awful about myself right now and I don't feel like I have any control I. My life. Tonight my wife told me she feels very tempted to start drinking again and she also told me a few months ago that she was tempted to go on dating websites to meet other men. I just feel like I can't handle another month of this. I have been patient but I can't come home and be treated this way and be a happy person. Today was her birthday. I booked a massage for her. We went shopping and went to a nice dinner. The whole day was great and then I came home and she is mad that I want to go to bed at midnight because I have to get up at 4:30. She lost it at me and called me selfish and said that I'm just thinking of myself on her day. I feel so manipulated. I don't necessarily need a response but I need to vent. Currently we're not on speaking terms with my family because they don't like her and mistreat her. She won't let me talk to any of my friends because she says all this is personal. Do I lie to her and go behind her back? 

Do not go behind her back! Do not lie! Be up front about everything that you are doing. You cannot control her behaviors and you cannot change her you can only do you. So be the best you that you can be. 

On 11/5/2016 at 1:02 AM, Mcmkk said:

Well she says that if I go to anyone for support she'll leave me. Just tried that so I don't really know what to do. What do I do?

These are games that children play, don't play them go and see a professional get help and let the chips fall where they will.

I can hear her in divorce court now " .....well he looked at porn and masturbated and after he apologized and never did it again he wanted to go to counseling to get more relationship help....what a bum"

[Just_A_Guy]

On 10/10/2016 at 9:27 PM, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I understand feeling frustrated at things progressing slower than you want, but you have no right to set any kind of timetable for her.  The deeper the cut, the longer it takes to heal so recognize that the length of time it takes her to work through this is a message to you about how deeply you've hurt her.  And while it is great that you feel God's forgiveness, that doesn't make you entitled to get her forgiveness just as quickly.  The fact that you stopped and haven't gone back is great too, but it doesn't undo anything you already did.   It will take however long it takes, be patient and humble.

I partly agree with this; and as a recovering porn addict myself I realize I'm in a terrible position to talk about what the wife here *should* be doing.

But it strikes me that after three months, there ought to at least be some progress; and in this case (based on what we're hearing--which, granted, is only one side of the story) there seems to be none at all.  @Mcmkk, you earlier told us that your bishop had said that she would decide when you got your temple recommend back.  You now say that you have it back.  Did she agree to it?  If not, what did she think about your getting it back over her objection?  Does she consider you unworthy to go to the temple?  Does she think you've "gotten away with it"?

In any event, it sounds to me like your wife has checked out of your marriage--and maybe, to some degree, out of living (not doing any chores?  Shunting her own baby off on you every minute you're home?).  I'm no clinician, but this sounds an awful lot like depression--or worse.  Either that, or she's simply a vindictive person who enjoys tormenting people for the sheer sport of it.  Or maybe she has already emotionally checked out of the marriage and is hoping for a divorce--but she has grown accustomed to painting herself as the victim and wants to be able to spin things so that it was you, not she, who brought up the "D" word. 

Frankly, I think you both would benefit from a full-fledged psychological examination (maybe her a little more than you, but you could probably both benefit from one).  In the interim you also need to educate yourself about what types of therapy are out there (CBT?  DBT?  EMDR?) and figure out what kind of marriage counseling you want (as you noted, some therapeutic approaches are pretty hokey).  And you might need to re-evaluate some of your presumptions about your relationship.  In other threads you have described tension between her and your own family; and you seemed to agree that most of the tension was your own family's fault.  Based on what you've seen of her over the past few months--are you still sure that the problems primarily lie with your family and not with your wife?  Maybe they really were the problem--and if so, that's another complicating wrinkle.  But as @LiterateParakeet hints--a man who tried to limit his wife's social contacts the way your wife is trying to limit yours, would very quickly be labeled an "abuser". 

I'd probably give her another few months to try to work through her issues; but I think you're fundamentally right that the status quo isn't sustainable.  The time may be months or even years away, but at some point--if she doesn't engage, then she's going to need to be confronted with an opportunity to choose whether the marriage will continue and whether she will do her part in making that marriage succeed; and if she won't do it then you may need to look at ways to legally, financially, and emotionally protect yourself.

[Just Someone]

37 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I partly agree with this; and as a recovering porn addict myself I realize I'm in a terrible position to talk about what the wife here *should* be doing.

But it strikes me that after three months, there ought to at least be some progress; and in this case (based on what we're hearing--which, granted, is only one side of the story) there seems to be none at all.  @Mcmkk, you earlier told us that your bishop had said that she would decide when you got your temple recommend back.  You now say that you have it back.  Did she agree to it?  If not, what did she think about your getting it back over her objection?  Does she consider you unworthy to go to the temple?  Does she think you've "gotten away with it"?

In any event, it sounds to me like your wife has checked out of your marriage--and maybe, to some degree, out of living (not doing any chores?  Shunting her own baby off on you every minute you're home?).  I'm no clinician, but this sounds an awful lot like depression--or worse.  Either that, or she's simply a vindictive person who enjoys tormenting people for the sheer sport of it.  Or maybe she has already emotionally checked out of the marriage and is hoping for a divorce--but she has grown accustomed to painting herself as the victim and wants to be able to spin things so that it was you, not she, who brought up the "D" word. 

Frankly, I think you both would benefit from a full-fledged psychological examination (maybe her a little more than you, but you could probably both benefit from one).  In the interim you also need to educate yourself about what types of therapy are out there (CBT?  DBT?  EMDR?) and figure out what kind of marriage counseling you want (as you noted, some therapeutic approaches are pretty hokey).  And you might need to re-evaluate some of your presumptions about your relationship.  In other threads you have described tension between her and your own family; and you seemed to agree that most of the tension was your own family's fault.  Based on what you've seen of her over the past few months--are you still sure that the problems primarily lie with your family and not with your wife?  Maybe they really were the problem--and if so, that's another complicating wrinkle.  But as @LiterateParakeet hints--a man who tried to limit his wife's social contacts the way your wife is trying to limit yours, would very quickly be labeled an "abuser". 

I'd probably give her another few months to try to work through her issues; but I think you're fundamentally right that the status quo isn't sustainable.  The time may be months or even years away, but at some point--if she doesn't engage, then she's going to need to be confronted with an opportunity to choose whether the marriage will continue and whether she will do her part in making that marriage succeed; and if she won't do it then you may need to look at ways to legally, financially, and emotionally protect yourself.

I agree that a psychological eval would be beneficial for both of you. You will have to, if you want your insurance to pay for it, see a physician/counselor(?) to "suspect" a mental/emotional problem, who will then refer you out to a psychologist (that's how it worked for my son at least). I got a psych eval done for my son, and it helped me understand him more, and also helped me to know how I could help him. In the report, it will tell you what types of therapies would benefit you and your situation best.

As for the brutal honesty from  @Just_A_Guy I think it may have been a bit too harsh. I don't think this thread should rile up @Mcmkk. I'm sure he can think up all the rationalities and negative thoughts/feelings against his wife on his own.

I do agree that she is using abusive behavior. As hurt as she is, as awful as she thinks your actions were, they could have been much, MUCH worse. Like I said, I have been on the receiving end of that confession by my husband, and I was hurt, but at the same time, my thoughts were revolved around his struggle and how I could help him through his temptations. There are a LOT of resources out there, many of them through the church, that can help both of you through this.

Additionally, it really isn't fair to the bishop to expect him to provide all your counseling. He is there for your spiritual health, he has no training in counseling, so when faced with emotional/marital issues, a professional is needed. If she's not comfortable going to just anyone, the church has counseling services, this allows you to freely talk about the problems in your marriage, without having to explain why it's a problem (since the rest of the world sees it as normal behavior).

Just remember, illnesses of the mind (I'll throw in marriage as well) are no different from other types of illnesses. If you were diagnosed with cancer, you wouldn't "deal with it" yourself, you would go to the professional that can give you your best shot at survival. The same goes for the "cancer" in your marriage. Also remember, cancer is never stagnant, it is either growing because of a lack of treatment, or dying because of treatment is being received. If it's left without improvement, it will get worse until it is far too out of control to fix.

I do wish the best for you, and I hope you can both get the help you need.

[Mcmkk]

Update: so it's been 6 months. Still haven't seen a MFT. I think we need to. No slip ups or going backward. I feel strong spiritually. Our Marriage feels like it's just barely hanging on. We fight all the time. My wife is very short with me most of the time. For the first 4 months I put up with it. Now I'm over it. She will be so rude to me and then ask for help or tell me to do something. Tonight I got home from a hunting trip. I was gone all day. She had a rough 24 hours and I was aware of it. I volunteered to watch our sick baby when I got home. She's been going to sleep very late. I was 100% ok helping out but I got home and my wife was very short and rude to me and rubbing it in that she wasn't going to do anything else tonight. She was being really negative and rude and stressing out and I just asked her to stop because I didn't want to get stressed out and overwhelmed myself. She got really upset and said all we ever do is argue. I asked her to stop being negative and she said that she has the right to be stressed out and negative and rude because I was hunting all day while she had it super rough. I absolutely cannot stand the thought of being that husband who will let his wife bark orders at him and he just submissively rolls over to her every rude request. I get compliments from friends and family about how helpfull I met with the baby all the time. I am very very hands on and I enjoy helping out. I always try to fulfill everything she wants me to do and she tells me how little I help out. I change lots of diapers. I put her to bed and bathe her every night. I play with her every day. I chase her around he house. I always sit in the back seat anytime we go anywhere and get her in her car seat and keep her happy anytime we're out. She constantly tells me that I never help and she can never count on me. I look at my friends with kids and I do way more than any of my guy friends do to help their wives out. That's the main argument is how little I help out but I am constantly trying to go the extra mile. Tonight she barked at me and I just left her with the baby upstairs because I told her that I will not be barked at and treated rude and help out me that would never ever fly with me in our marriages She says I'm using my baby as a pawn. I Would walk through walks if she were kind and asks but she is rude and short and expects. I cannot feel happy and good about myself letting myself be treated this way and not standing up for myself.She will not apologize anymore now that we have gone through this. It makes it so hard because of how rude and short she is. I pray daily for strength to get through this trial. Am I in the wrong here? I feel like I red to draw a fine line right now and make it clear that it's not ok to treat me like this. thoughts/advice?

[Sunday21]

You need to see a lds therapist. I suggest seeing this person by yourself. Even if lds family services is at a distance, give them a call. Counsellors often see people by skype. Sometimes, and in some situations, it is best to have counselling without your spouse. Does your spouse make rules for your behaviour? Are these rules different from the rules that would be typical for other families? For example, in most families, if you are going to work late, you call home. That's a normal rule. Unusual rules might be having to ask permission to use the stove. That's a strange rule. Are you beginning to see strange rules? Does your spouse become angry about things most people do not become angry about? If you start to see even minor trends along these lines, it is best to seek counselling by yourself and soon.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Mcmkk, I'm sorry you and your wife are still struggling.  My advice is the same as up thread, and I second the wise words of Sunday21.  Unfortunately, this is not a situation that as strangers on the net we can really help much with.  You need some counseling from someone trained in these types of situations.  I have used therapy and it has been a tremendous help in my life.  So don't delay.  

[Blueskye2]

6 hours ago, Mcmkk said:

Update: so it's been 6 months. Still haven't seen a MFT. I think we need to. No slip ups or going backward. I feel strong spiritually. Our Marriage feels like it's just barely hanging on. We fight all the time. My wife is very short with me most of the time. For the first 4 months I put up with it. Now I'm over it. She will be so rude to me and then ask for help or tell me to do something. Tonight I got home from a hunting trip. I was gone all day. She had a rough 24 hours and I was aware of it. I volunteered to watch our sick baby when I got home. She's been going to sleep very late. I was 100% ok helping out but I got home and my wife was very short and rude to me and rubbing it in that she wasn't going to do anything else tonight. She was being really negative and rude and stressing out and I just asked her to stop because I didn't want to get stressed out and overwhelmed myself. She got really upset and said all we ever do is argue. I asked her to stop being negative and she said that she has the right to be stressed out and negative and rude because I was hunting all day while she had it super rough. I absolutely cannot stand the thought of being that husband who will let his wife bark orders at him and he just submissively rolls over to her every rude request. I get compliments from friends and family about how helpfull I met with the baby all the time. I am very very hands on and I enjoy helping out. I always try to fulfill everything she wants me to do and she tells me how little I help out. I change lots of diapers. I put her to bed and bathe her every night. I play with her every day. I chase her around he house. I always sit in the back seat anytime we go anywhere and get her in her car seat and keep her happy anytime we're out. She constantly tells me that I never help and she can never count on me. I look at my friends with kids and I do way more than any of my guy friends do to help their wives out. That's the main argument is how little I help out but I am constantly trying to go the extra mile. Tonight she barked at me and I just left her with the baby upstairs because I told her that I will not be barked at and treated rude and help out me that would never ever fly with me in our marriages She says I'm using my baby as a pawn. I Would walk through walks if she were kind and asks but she is rude and short and expects. I cannot feel happy and good about myself letting myself be treated this way and not standing up for myself.She will not apologize anymore now that we have gone through this. It makes it so hard because of how rude and short she is. I pray daily for strength to get through this trial. Am I in the wrong here? I feel like I red to draw a fine line right now and make it clear that it's not ok to treat me like this. thoughts/advice?

Dude, trust is a two way street. I'd be getting a divorce lawyer if I were you, not to get divorced but to plan for protecting yourself from this woman who is going to take you to the cleaners. I mean, why is she still not divorcing you? What is she doing still living with you? Keep an eye on your bank account and any other assets that you may have. 

[Blueskye2]

On 9/5/2016 at 8:05 PM, estradling75 said:

She was talking about how the wife (or how most wives would) sees it... Not how the church courts would see it.

Since the discussion is focused on the wife's response that is what the OP needs to be prepared for.

Now we can (and have) blow a lot of hot air around about not the same thing but at the end of the day the OP needs to deal with what is... and what is is that his wife is badly hurt by his actions... hurts that the time to heal and recover from can be measured in months and years... not a few days or weeks.

 

 

 

There's a fundamental difference in how men and women view porn (most of the time). Men do not view it as cheating, Generally do not view that the other women they are objectifying have anything to do with their wife.  Women see it as their husband lusting after another woman and consummating, in a way, that lust with themselves, in their own mind, and in what they are actually doing. 

 

[Blueskye2]

On 11/4/2016 at 0:27 AM, Mcmkk said:

Just an update. I'm sorry I post so much on this thread. I'm just having such a hard time. She still is struggling so badly. I don't feel like she's trying at all. She's not willing to meet with a counselor. Only the bishop. I come home after a long day and she is super mean to me. I got mad the other day because I'm tired of being treated like such a piece of scum and she said she still can't see herself with me in the future and doesn't even want to entertain the thought. She said she doesn't want to heal right now. I can't understand why she wants to stay hurt. She doesn't do anything to help our marriage. She says she has no obligation to try anymore and that she is trying just By being here. Not even chores around the house. It feels like she has given up but is staying with me going through the motions. I don't think she'll leave me. But she isn't trying to get past this at all. She is just "stuck". What do I do? She has become extremely controlling and I'm having a hard time as my job requires me to be gone a lot. She expects me to do all the chores and watch the baby 100% of the time while I'm home. She won't let me have social media, won't let me watch any videos. Gets upset if I'm gone too long during the day. Won't let me go to the gym. All because she says she can't trust me to not look at other women. She flips out at me for random things all the time and constantly thinks I'm trying to look st other women. I am doing so great personally with god and I truly have forsaken the sin. She doesn't believe I've changed and thinks I'm just lying to her and making up my repentance. I'm struggling so much to be patient and bear this trial. Help!  Advice? 

Look, I've been here done that. This is how your husband looking at other women and masturbaing to them makes you feel.  What did you expect? She isn't wrong, and she is absolutely right in thinking it will happen again, because it will. She's trying to control a situation in which she has no control.  Maybe, just maybe, if she can control the situation she can figure out how to stay married, so she is trying, just not how you want her to try. She is going to figure out controlling you is not the answer. 

You need to lay it out for her. That you are an imperfect man who makes mistakes and who is battling, and you will lose the battle now and then, which doesn't mean you don't love her. That is where she is at, that if you love her, really truly love her, you would have never done this, therefore, you "obviously" don't love her. Maybe you can't and never will ever meet her expectation of what love is, or isn't , but you need to talk out what expectations are realistic and what is going to happen when you fail. Or when she fails at your expectations, as you perceive she is doing now. 

That doesn't mean we should be doormats. You have to communicate or this downward spiral is going to continue. 

[yjacket]

Quite frankly, you are already divorced in spirit.  You may not still have a piece of paper that says you are married; but at this point from what you describe you are already divorced.  You and your wife need to have a heart to heart and figure out if you two really want to be married or divorced.

Being blunt, it also sounds like your wife is a spoiled brat.

For the past thousands of years, from the time of Adam and Eve even until the present men and women have been given distinct separate yet equal roles. It is spelled out in the Proclamation on the Family. Part of this is that for the first several years of a child's life, the mother has the primary and ultimate responsibility for the care, nurture and upbringing of children.  The father's role is to help his wife in the best way possible to help her carry out her responsibilities, but not to do it for her.  Now the primary way that the husband can help out the wife is to ensure that she has everything necessary to fulfill her role (i.e. breadwin), now from time to time that might be also being a second hand when the wife needs a break, but that doesn't mean doing it for her.

Quite frankly, your plight is not too uncommon in today's society b/c as a society we have completely forgotten and disregarded the sacred role of wives and we have disregarded the teaching of that role to wives b/c it's too "demeaning".  50 years ago, women would have 5-6 kids, manage an entire household with little to no fanfare. This modern idea that a house is always a disaster with children is really quite b.s. The women 50-60 years ago had their crap together.  Speaking as a whole women don't take home-ec. anymore so they have absolutely no clue what it means to run a household.  Simply having one child now is "too much work". Hey look, I've got news for you, life is hard and it is work-but that's okay life is meant to be work and in our work we find joy and happiness.

Oh and don't worry, I also believe as a society we aren't training our boys how to be husbands and fathers either.  How many men would rather go "find themselves" now v.s providing for their families. 

A marriage counselor may help, but a counselor can really only help those who want to be helped; if your wife doesn't want to be helped then you have a choice, either pray , hope and wait for her to grow up and in the process deal with the consequences of her immature behavior or divorce her.

You can't change her, only she can change herself.  The best thing you can do is be the best husband and father you can be-that will require you to really find and understand what it means to be a husband and a father.  Find out what your role is as the head of the household and how you can be a leader for your family. And she needs to understand what her role as a wife and mother is.  And while you have your sins of porn. those sins do not negate your God given, appointed and divine role as leader and head of household.  Just b/c you have looked at porn, doesn't make her the head.  Remember the Temple Endowment, there are some very important truths (that are very inconvenient in today's society) that are taught.

IMO as leader and head of household it is never appropriate (unless adultery or abuse is involved) to instantiate divorce or to threaten divorce.  Some people seem to think divorce is the answer (for some reason more woman than men seem to think that way), when study after study has shown that divorce leads to more heartache, more misery, more financial problems for both people vs if they had figured out a way to make it work.

One of the biggest roles as husband and father is to be a leader, so find out what it means to be a good leader and lead your family with righteousness!

Edited January 9, 2017 by yjacket

[Latter-Day Marriage]

It is not helpful to return railing for railing, a soft answer turns away wrath. While soft answers may mean that you get hit verbally and don't hit back, over time the injustice of that treatment should dawn on her and motivate her to change.  It isn't being a doormat, you are not conceding she is right to be upset with you, you are just refusing to stoop to the same level.

[Guest]

I believe that the way Heavenly Father wants priesthood holders to preside in their homes is to lead, yes. But lead =/= rule, it means to go before and show the way. I hearken to my husband as he hearkens to our Father. That doesn't mean he has the right to rule with an iron fist. So be careful of that, and those who would advise you to do so. 

However, as a partner, I hope my husband would never stand for being treated badly. I hope he would seek support and be as healthy as he can, even if my unhealthy behavior demanded that he not. It is indeed unrighteous and even abusive for her to demand that you not get help or support, not to mention counter-progressive. She can kick and scream and tell you to keep it to yourself all she wants, but as a son of God and partner in a 3-way covenant, you have every right to take care of yourself, and I would tell her that you're going to do just that, for the sake of your marriage and your own health and recovery. 

ETA: part of that leading could and indeed probably is seeking outside help. She clearly needs it, too, and you would be a great leader by doing what needs to be done to fix this. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Eowyn

[yjacket]

22 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I believe that the way Heavenly Father wants priesthood holders to preside in their homes is to lead, yes. But lead =/= rule, it means to go before and show the way. I hearken to my husband as he hearkens to our Father. That doesn't mean he has the right to rule with an iron fist. So be careful of that, and those who would advise you to do so. 

One of my pet peeves about modern society; anytime someone mentions leadership or leading in relationship to head of household or being a husband it is almost immediately countered with "yes to preside and lead, but don't rule with an iron fist". It is almost this tongue and cheek saying of you can lead, but not really.

I never said rule, I never mentioned it or brought it up, I said lead.  I said to figure out what it means to be a good leader.  It goes without saying that being a good leader means not to rule and not to be an iron fist.  I daresay leadership is probably one of the most misunderstood characteristics in modern society.

Leadership means being an example, it means knowing when to be soft, when to be firm, when to discipline, when to not discipline.  Leading means understanding when to be upset and when not to be upset-and to always be in control of yourself. Leadership is about understanding the overarching goal of whatever unit one is leading and then ensuring that those you lead understand what they need to (b/c sometimes they don't need to know everything), to accomplish the goal of the unit.  It means bringing out the best in them to accomplish the goals necessary-it means loving those your lead as Christ would love them. Leadership means understanding when to take advice, when to ask for advice, what advice to seek, when to use that advice and when not to use that advice.

And consequently, one of the other things vastly misunderstood is what it means to follow or support . .but I'll leave that to another discussion.

I really hate it when the immediate response to "be a good leader for your family" is "don't rule with an iron-fist"  that is so incredibly counter productive. Instead of responding with "don't do this" why not response with here are some positive ways to be a good head of household . . .

Edited January 9, 2017 by yjacket

[Guest]

It's for every man to examine whether or not he is exercising righteous or unrighteous dominion, isn't it? We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Incidentally, I would submit that it's never a husband's place to discipline his wife any more than it's her place to discipline him.

As to the OP, who this is actually about, I believe I did give at least one example of how to display good leadership in this situation. 

[yjacket]

17 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Incidentally, I would submit that it's never a husband's place to discipline his wife any more than it's her place to discipline him. 

Well, I was talking about general leadership principles; and if that is your view of discipline then you don't understand what disciplining is  . . .disciplining comes from the root word disciple.  To discipline is to disciple one in a certain path.  I didn't say punish, I said discipline.  One can discipline a child by simply giving a disapproving look.  God and Christ are constantly disciplining us, his children.  Discipline isn't a bad word.

I would agree with you if you said punish-as punishment generally makes the person who is hurt feel better but may not help the offender at all.  I don't believe a husband or a wife should punish each other, but they certainly have the right to disciple each other. 

[yjacket]

34 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

As to the OP, who this is actually about, I believe I did give at least one example of how to display good leadership in this situation. 

That you did, my apologies.

[Just Someone]

I apologize if this topic has been brought up by someone else, but I've had a thought that did wonders for my marriage, when 15 of our 20 years of marriage has been loveless. 

This is what turned it around. The last general conference was more meaningful and spiritual than any others for me. A couple days later, I felt a need to express my appreciation and love for my husband. It started out as a text, but as it grew in length it turned into an email. My words normally get all jumbled up when I speak of anything emotional and my true feelings aren't conveyed so I decided to trust my writing. I read and fixed and re-read and then changed some more of it many times before I sent it to him. I even left it and came back to it a couple hours later to make sure it was saying what I wanted it to. This was no ordinary letter, it was from deep down, the part of myself that NO ONE ever sees. This could only have been done when I was already in an incredibly spiritual moment in time.

What I told him was incredibly personal, but I feel the need to share it with you. I told him what I love about him and why. I told him that the perspective of physical bodies and earthly sins and annoyances had nothing to do with why I do or don't love him because I had caught a glimpse of the other side and I realized that when looking at the eternal perspective, suddenly this anger and frustration seemed quite silly because they didn't matter. We are here to help each other through this life, not hinder them and I feel extremely blessed to have him by my side. At the end of the email I asked him if we could talk about it when he had time to think it through. We talked the next night where he shared his thoughts about it. It was incredible for us, but after a few weeks, when the high wore off, the real work began. Which is a whole other topic.

My point is that we all communicate differently, we all perceive love differently, and maybe giving your wife some time to hear what you have to say privately, without having to respond immediately may be an idea. Make sure if you do this you include the desire to discuss it after she has had time to think it over. It was the talk afterwords that had such a huge effect on us. It had been so long since we really communicated without walls and barriers. We can never truly know someone when there are walls in the way. There's a song by Francesca Batistelli called "If We're Honest". It's worth listening to and maybe playing it for your wife.

If you decide to do this, I would give a little advise (even though I'm not big on giving advise, I think we "should" all over each other enough) but here it is. In this letter/email I would not include your transgressions, I would focus all of it on her and your love for her, why you fell in love with her. Keep everything positive and really speak from the heart. 

Your wife has been wounded, and apparently she has made negativity her band-aid. Something has to change for her to be able to decide to rip the band-aid off, hopefully she'll see that she's picking the wound open over and over again. If she stops, it'll heal.

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Just Someone
Auto correct changed it without me noticing

[Bad Karma]

On 1/8/2017 at 5:09 PM, Eowyn said:

It's for every man to examine whether or not he is exercising righteous or unrighteous dominion, isn't it? We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Incidentally, I would submit that it's never a husband's place to discipline his wife any more than it's her place to discipline him.

As to the OP, who this is actually about, I believe I did give at least one example of how to display good leadership in this situation. 

 

Yes, it is, and examine we must.

It also doesn't hurt to say a little prayer consisting of "Heavenly father, thank you for my wife, who loves me so much". Great when said on the worst of days too! 

[eddified]

Wow I'm sorry @Mcmkk . It sounds like she has some serious issues. Let the Spirit direct and comfort you. Don't confuse your standing before God with how your marriage is going.  What I mean by that, is don't feel like a sinner or a loser  when you know otherwise. Your difficulties in marriage are not a reflection of your righteousness or lack thereof, provided you are doing your part (it sounds like you are. ). 

I'm not a marriage counselor, but maybe she needs to know what it's like without you around. I.e. separate and take a break from the marriage for a short while. BUT TAKE THIS ADVICE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. I'm not a counselor. Follow the spirit. This is one of your trials , I will pray for you. 

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:35 AM, Jane_Doe said:

(Warning: blunt reply below)

Dude, you CHEATED on your wife.  It's not something she's going to "get over", especially overnight.  Can she/you/your marriage be healed and find forgiveness?  Yes!  But it is going to take TIME and GOD.  And you can't rush either of those.  But with your confession, you are well on your way down that road- you post indicates that you know/feel this already.  It's a good thing, it just takes time.

I'm going to be blunt. I'm appalled at this statement and ANYONE who would back something like this up.  It's non-scriptural, it's non-canonical, and it's an out and out lie.

That is not cheating.  You have NO IDEA what cheating is or does to a person.  This entire thing that has been put out in regards to this is one of the biggest blights I've ever seen on the LDS church. 

If this is cheating, ANY WOMAN who reads a romance novel (and even more so the dirty ones which are basically pornography for woman) and/or watches ANY romance movie (it's not just mere fantasy, that's a fantasy in one's mind involving those who are NOT your spouse) are ALSO cheating.

If this is cheating, than if you have EVER had a dirty thought AT ALL, EVER, in your marriage, you are MORE guilty and have cheated on your spouse.

Sound ridiculous. It should, but in essence it's doing the SAME thing you just accused the above individual above on.

People like to divide it up in their mind, but simply seeing naked individuals or even naked individuals doing certain acts is not a sin in and of itself.  That isn't even something talked about in ANY of the core scriptures.  The sin that it breaks is in the Beatitudes.  It is looking at such things with lust in their heart (as per the New Testemant).

Quote

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Now some feel justified by this saying...see...right there it states it is adultery.

Quote

 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

If you ascribe to that idea, just know if you have ever called someone something, you are also guilty of murder under that logic.  Is that REALLY the logic you want to go with?

The truth is that this is a sin, but not one as dire as what one who decides to divorce over it is committing. 

Right underneath the beatitude against lusting is given the actual law the Lord gave, and he gives it several times, indicating HOW SERIOUS divorce really is (rather than a much more minor sin of looking upon a woman (or man, it is not just a thing men can be guilty of).

Quote

³ The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

⁴ And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

⁵ And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

⁶ Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

⁷ They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

⁸ He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

⁹ And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

matthew 19.

In essence, a woman who divorces her husband over pornography and then remarries, according to this, has committed Adultery, not the husband.

NOW THAT IS HARSH...if we want to talk about something harsh AND supported by scripture.  Luckily, the church and the Lord seems to understand that the current culture in our world has made us weaker than most have been in any of the past 2000 years (even the Romans didn't have the divorce problems we have) and are far more forgiving (or so I've been led to believe).

However, let's not call someone cheating in that manner when it's not really cheating any more than reading romance novels (or what I would call, pornography for woman) or any number of other things are.

I've recently seen a spat of what people are calling emotional adultery (that means they do not have sexual relations outside of marriage with another person, but they have expressed interest, flirting, and even dating others when married to someone else) and in all honesty, I consider that outright cheating, if not outright adultery (by the definition of having relations outside of marriage).  I also think that takes a far greater emotional toll on the spouse than pornography should (as the emotional cheating actually involves REAL interest in someone else rather than some foolish fantasy or ridiculous habit).  This showing interest in another person, betraying your loyalty, THAT is what cheating is.

And yes, adultery is even worse than cheating.  Woman and men are devastated by both of those, and it is a terrible thing to deal with (even worse when both are in the same ward, which can be a very terrible situation to deal with).

That said, in regards to the OP, your wife may have something she is hiding herself.  Her reaction may be bad at first, but the way she went about it sounds like something isn't right, something isn't normal in the way she reacted.  To me, red flags are waving. 

I should have read this entire thread, but the statement above is something that always makes me upset because it is a major problem I see afflicting and tearing apart LDS marriages today.  This isn't to condone Pornography (Because I am not doing that, this does not make it alright or okay to view pornography...at all, and if you are involved in such you need to repent immediately), but to say trying to equate it with a much more serious and far worse sin is something that can cause terrible things (and has been causing terrible things) to happen.

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by JohnsonJones
Clearing up how the scriptural quotes look

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 11:39 PM, Mcmkk said:

I absolutely want my baby to grow up in a happy healthy home. I need to go see a counselor by myself and read those books. I feel awful about myself right now and I don't feel like I have any control I. My life. Tonight my wife told me she feels very tempted to start drinking again and she also told me a few months ago that she was tempted to go on dating websites to meet other men. I just feel like I can't handle another month of this. I have been patient but I can't come home and be treated this way and be a happy person. Today was her birthday. I booked a massage for her. We went shopping and went to a nice dinner. The whole day was great and then I came home and she is mad that I want to go to bed at midnight because I have to get up at 4:30. She lost it at me and called me selfish and said that I'm just thinking of myself on her day. I feel so manipulated. I don't necessarily need a response but I need to vent. Currently we're not on speaking terms with my family because they don't like her and mistreat her. She won't let me talk to any of my friends because she says all this is personal. Do I lie to her and go behind her back? 

This is much more serious than what you did. 

She just threatened you with emotional affair.  In many cases like these, when a spouse threatens something like this, they are ALREADY doing it.  This is something a Bishop or Stake President may need to be involved with if she is already doing something like this.

It sounds like your spouse has a very serious problem, and if she is talking about things like this, I would advise either counseling (I'd heavily suggest this at this point), or a bishops visit to deal with this post haste.

In truth, I would advise counseling for her. 

Even if she is not cheating on you presently, it sounds as if she has something far more serious afflicting her than what you did. 

It could be depression, or some other item, in which case she needs medical care (depression and ailments like that are just as serious an illness as if someone had broken their legs, or back, or other physical ailment). If she refuses that, don't use it as if it is for your problems, but utilize it as something with a medical background.  If you can afford it, take her to her normal medical doctor and have them administer a test over her emotional and mental well being.  If she is depressed, they can see signs of it and perhaps "suggest" for her to go to another doctor (one that deals with these issues or is a counselor).  Many who refuse to go to counseling on their own accord, will go if a medical doctor they trust suggests it.

In regards to the original problem of pornography, see if your church has a pornography addiction class in your stake.  Even if you are no longer looking at this, going may be helpful to your wife and you.  This class is separated into those who have problems with pornography, and those who have had spouses who have had problems with pornography.  The class for spouses deals with forgiveness and learning to love the person who you married again.  It can be very helpful for those who have problems forgiving.

[Guest]

... Yikes. Protest much?

[Latter-Day Marriage]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

That is not cheating.  You have NO IDEA what cheating is or does to a person.  This entire thing that has been put out in regards to this is one of the biggest blights I've ever seen on the LDS church.

I agree that using porn is not fully equivalent to having a sexual affair with another person, and equating those to things cheapens the meaning of adultery, but using porn is still an immoral, disloyal act and a betrayal of trust.  I think we need to move away from a binary cheating/not cheating mindset and see it more as a scale.  There are various levels of cheating, and just because something isn't equivalent to adultery doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.

[JohnsonJones]

20 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

I agree that using porn is not fully equivalent to having a sexual affair with another person, and equating those to things cheapens the meaning of adultery, but using porn is still an immoral, disloyal act and a betrayal of trust.  I think we need to move away from a binary cheating/not cheating mindset and see it more as a scale.  There are various levels of cheating, and just because something isn't equivalent to adultery doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.

If their spouse would leave their marriage over something like pornography, they normally have some sort of other problem they may be struggling mightily with.  It would be like cutting off your finger because you have an ingrown nail, or amputating your arm because you broke it.  These are injuries, but causing greater injury because of it isn't really something that should be considered (In my opinion).  These injuries are things that can be repaired or healed.  Amputation on the otherhand is rather permanent damage.

When I deal with someone with a pornography problem, it is on the scale (to me) akin to someone who has an alcohol or word of wisdom problem, or does not pay their tithing, or another such thing.  This does not mean that I think it is insignificant, but when things start getting tossed around, especially like what the OP presented...that indicates that something is seriously wrong (and from the sounds of what has happened, it really sounds as if the spouse has some serious problems, either morally or emotionally which they really need to see a counselor soon for their own health).

On the actual idea many exhibit in the LDS church, it may sometimes be disloyal, but as per Elder Oaks when he gave a talk on this, it is not always an addiction and it is not always a betrayal or disloyal act.

Very similar to how calling your brother (or another) names is not fully equivalent to murder, but it is still immoral, evil, and if it has enough vehemence behind it can lead to thoughts or actions similar to what one might do if they actually did murder that individual.

I'm not saying someone viewing pornography is good, nor that it is moral.  It is immoral, but I think people seem to have a double standard.  A big example of this are what people  used to call straight up pornography.  What we see as romance books now (especially the ones with more risqué covers and writing) were the pornography of yesteryear.  Many of these get far more in depth on certain actions than simply a nude individual (which is something we see in art, and was actually a form of attire for some occupations during the time of our Lord).  However, MANY give these things a pass.

Pornography also was far more expansive of what we call it today.  It was one of three things done to extreme, which would include what we include today, but also excessive violence or excessive language.  Any of these actually fall under what is pornography, but most American (more specifically, US) Mormons give these items a pass.  However, these are equally as bad as the other forms of pornography.  It is ironic than, how people are classifying it.  Should a woman or man (in my case) be horrified if their spouse watches something with pornography, but one that is of excessive violence or language and feel it is a betrayal enough to leave their spouse?

Pornography is NOT a good thing and is wrong.  I don't want confusion on that. I in no way or how condone it, and in fact condemn it.  It is a horrific plague that affects our young men (and older) today.  It also affects many woman.  However, we have a tendency to ignore some forms of pornography while being horrified by others, or even worse in many instances, completely giving it a pass if it is in some medium that we approve of (for example, I am still shocked at how a pornographic Rated-R movie does so well in many highly populated LDS areas.  One prime example of this is when I went to the Lego Batman movie.  The parking lot was full and I was afraid it might be sold out.  Luckily it still had seats...but when I asked what everyone was at the movie theater for, they stated that the 50 shades movie was the one that everyone was going to, especially woman, for some odd reason.  I thought it was a movie that probably objectified woman, but apparently many woman want to see that movie).

 

PS: I should state I include the difficulties with names and thoughts because I sometimes am not the best person or nicest...especially when I'm in my vehicle and someone cuts me off, or tailgates me, or other things.  I need to be far more loving towards other drivers, and others in general...so obviously I would hope I'm not in the same boat as murderers.  It is a problem I have though, and one I can relate to and hence I bring it up.  Remembering my own fallibilities makes me a little more humble when considering others...or at least I try to remember my fallibilities in order to try to humble my arrogant and sinful self.

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by JohnsonJones
I'm not perfect either

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

If their spouse would leave their marriage over something like pornography, they normally have some sort of other problem they may be struggling mightily with.  It would be like cutting off your finger because you have an ingrown nail, or amputating your arm because you broke it.  These are injuries, but causing greater injury because of it isn't really something that should be considered (In my opinion).  These injuries are things that can be repaired or healed.  Amputation on the otherhand is rather permanent damage.

When I deal with someone with a pornography problem, it is on the scale (to me) akin to someone who has an alcohol or word of wisdom problem, or does not pay their tithing, or another such thing.  This does not mean that I think it is insignificant, but when things start getting tossed around, especially like what the OP presented...that indicates that something is seriously wrong (and from the sounds of what has happened, it really sounds as if the spouse has some serious problems, either morally or emotionally which they really need to see a counselor soon for their own health).

The issue becomes more complicated when in cases where an offender continues to do the sin, doesn't repent of the problem, doesn't acknowledge that it's an issue, habitually lies about it, doesn't seek treatment, or if in treatment totally ignores the directions given.