Do other religions have some bit of truth to them?

[Guest]

Obviously the LDS church is the only church on earth with the full truth, but are there other religions that have some of the truths? Catholicism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. like some have beliefs about loving one another as you would like to be treated, but then they turn around with a fictitious belief like the idea of reincarnation, which is totally against resurrection and heaven. Other religions believe in a heaven, but only in the heaven and hell, and not in the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms like we have the knowledge of.  And in respect to the topic, how lucky do you feel to be in a world full of 7 plus billion people and 1 of only 15 million in the world that is part of the correct path?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Zarahemla

[Larry Cotrell]

There are bits of truth here and there throughout religions because Satan knows that the more truth something has, the more convincing of a lie it is.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." 

[Guest]

Ya 15 million out of 7 billion is a strait and narrow path.

[Rob Osborn]

Who is to say that our understanding of the plan of salvation, as a church in general, is correct?

Im actually of the belief that we dont undetstand it any better than most other Christian religions.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Who is to say that our understanding of the plan of salvation, as a church in general, is correct?

Im actually of the belief that we dont undetstand it any better than most other Christian religions.

I believe most people who bare their testimony on fast sunday know it's correct, otherwise they're just confused and misguided. And if we don't understand it any better than other Christians then why do we put more effort into it? What are your beliefs about the Plan of Salvation Rob?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Zarahemla

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I believe most people who bare their testimony on fast sunday know it's correct, otherwise they're just confused and misguided. And if we don't understand it any better than other Christians then why do we put more effort into it? What are your beliefs about the Plan of Salvation Rob?

Well, we put forth a greater effort to understand it from our perspective, but so do others from other relugions. I have read many a good sermon from other religious leaders of differing denominations that are spot on with every teaching in the Book of Mormon, and they dont even know it that we share the same doctrines on so many points.

 

My beliefs regarding the plan of salvation is that we have most of the puzzle pieces but yet we have forced the pieces together wrong and thus have an incorrect picture. The Book of Mormon, which is supposed to be the keystone of our religion, has gotten set aside when it comes to discussions regarfing the plan of salvation. we currently have, in our church, at minimum three different plans of salvation that in some degree do not all agree with each other and often times contradicts itself overall. You have the plan of salvation as taught in the Book of Mormon and New Testament, then you have manual plan of salvation which is in a myriad of church manuals that draws heavily off of section 76, and last you have the plan of salvation that the endowment in the temple teaches. There is no truly valid argument that all three run congruent with each other and mesh together. The Book of Mormon plan of salvation best agrees with the temple endowment but then our manual plan, drawing off section 76, throws a monkey wrench into everything.

 

The classic Book of Mormon plan of salvation is the classic Christianity doctrine as found in the New Testament that all other Christian religions believe in. Its a strict dichotomy of saved to heaven or damned to hell. The Book of Mormon, D&C and NT are replete with this dichotomy. But, we do not teach this, we teach the section 76 model. That model shows a three world salvation model where even the unrepentant are eventually saved from hell. 

My belief is that if we are truly receiving line upon line then the most recent revelation should trump any other doctrine. The endownent is thus our most recent doctrine as revealed. So, what does the temple teach? It teaches the expounded version of the Book of Mormon and NT strict dichotomy- saved in the kingdom of heaven or damned to hell. Nowhere in the endowment does it show salvation from an eternal hell until one reaches the veil and is admitted into the Celestial kingdom. The endowment clarifies that the telestial kingdom and terrestrial kingdom are not eternal kingdoms after resurrection and judgment but rather stages of our earth in its progression as we become qualified to achieve salvation in the celestial kingdom. 

 

D&C 138, revealed after the endowment, further clarifies this dichotomy and the essential requirements to be saved from hell eternally. 

Picking apart section 76, it becomes rather obvious that it is wholly misunderstood. There are no less than 10 basic contradictions that our current understanding of section 76 creates. But because its set in stone so steadfast, no one can see the glaring contradictions.

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My beliefs regarding the plan of salvation is that we have most of the puzzle pieces but yet we have forced the pieces together wrong and thus have an incorrect picture. The Book of Mormon, which is supposed to be the keystone of our religion, has gotten set aside when it comes to discussions regarfing the plan of salvation. we currently have, in our church, at minimum three different plans of salvation that in some degree do not all agree with each other and often times contradicts itself overall. You have the plan of salvation as taught in the Book of Mormon and New Testament, then you have manual plan of salvation which is in a myriad of church manuals that draws heavily off of section 76, and last you have the plan of salvation that the endowment in the temple teaches. There is no truly valid argument that all three run congruent with each other and mesh together. The Book of Mormon plan of salvation best agrees with the temple endowment but then our manual plan, drawing off section 76, throws a monkey wrench into everything.

That's not what is taught in the Endowment.  And all the accounts (OT, BoM, NT, D&C, Endowment, PoGP, and manuals) all agree on the Plan of Salvation.  But you've gotten some alternate universe interpretation of the Endowment that has got you thinking this is all mixed up.  It's not.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Guest

[Fether]

Just commenting on your last sentence, it isn't by accident that we are among the few chosen to be born in the gospel. It wasn't luck that put us here, but our agency in pre-earth life.

Alma 13, Abraham 3:22-28 and many other scriptures all teach that we are placed here on Earth because of decisions we made in pre-earth life. Those of us whom are members of the church had valiant testimonies of christ in the pre-existence before we did here. And many of those who are not members of the church may have followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in pre-existence, but were not valiant in their testimonies. 

 

Not luck, just rewards for righteousness in a life past

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Picking apart section 76, it becomes rather obvious that it is wholly misunderstood. There are no less than 10 basic contradictions that our current understanding of section 76 creates.

Would you list the ten basic contradictions? Thank you.

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That's not what is taught in the Endowment.  And all the accounts (OT, BoM, NT, D&C, Endowment, PoGP, and manuals) all agree on the Plan of Salvation.  But you've gotten some alternate universe interpretation of the Endowment that has got you thinking this is all mixed up.  It's not.

Okay, so where in the Book of Mormon is it taught that all unrepentant  liars sorcer, adulterers, whoremongers will receive salvation from the eternal hell?

[Just_A_Guy]

@Rob Osborn @Carborendum I will be interested to see this discussion play out, but with two caveats:

1.  (This is a mod thing) We need to be really, really careful in how we talk about the endowment; and

2.  (This is just my opinion) we need to be careful about assuming that the entire endowment came verbatim from God Himself.  We know that its text has changed over time.  We know from Brigham Young's own statements that he viewed the endowment as practiced in the territorial period as being an improved version of the endowment that Joseph revealed in Nauvoo.  We can be reasonably sure that Joseph never committed the endowment ceremony to writing.  I guess what I'm saying is that we should be careful about regarding the endowment as "canonical" or trying to establish doctrine from it in a vacuum.  If Brigham Young, who *wrote* the thing, seems to have rejected Rob's approach to D&C 76 (and to clarify--I have no idea whether he did); then it stands to reason that like Young we ought not to consider consider the endowment as being dispositive of the issue.

So my question would be:  how DID Young interpret D&C 76?

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so where in the Book of Mormon is it taught that all unrepentant  liars sorcer, adulterers, whoremongers will receive salvation from the eternal hell?

Where does it say they don't?  

Much of the BoM talks about Spirit Prison vs Paradise.  It is not about our final judgment.  There are some places where it is clear that is precisely what is being spoken of.  But others, the differences are ignored.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Guest

[Just_A_Guy]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so where in the Book of Mormon is it taught that all unrepentant  liars sorcer, adulterers, whoremongers will receive salvation from the eternal hell?

The standard church interpretation of D&C 76 doesn't claim this either.  It is crystal clear that at the final judgment *every* knee shall bow and *every* tongue shall confess.  Only the sons of perdition remain eternally rebellious--the rest DO repent, which is why they are to some degree redeemable.  Hence, the common saying about how God forces no man into heaven.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[estradling75]

Do also note that there is a difference between Salvation and Exaltation... The Book of Mormon is about Salvation... The temple is about Exaltation.  Both talk about God's plan and both Harmonize just fine once one understands the different aspects of the plan that they Focus on.

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Would you list the ten basic contradictions? Thank you.

1. Why is it that only the celestial are mentioned as coming forth in the resurrection of the just if we know the resurrection of the unjust are the sons of perdition? The contradiction here is that telestial heirs are said to come forth in the second or last resurrection which is the resurrection of the unjust meaning they are not justified through Christ to be saved from an eternal hell. How then can they be saved from hell?

2. Verses 40-43 describe the ones who Christ saves and makes all spotless which according to the verses is everyone but the sons of perdition. All these saved are made spotless through acceptance of the gospel according tothese verses. The contradiction here is that according to manuals, the telestial heirs never repent. How then can they be made spotless?

3.verses 50-70 describe the resurrection of the just. The contradiction here is that these verses, according to the BoM are the only ones who can be saved while those who fail these requirements must be cast into outerdarkness.

4. Verse 72 mentions one group of terrestrial heirs as being those who "died without law". The contradiction here is that the scriptures state that a person who does not have the law cannot be judged by the law and are instead made whole through the atonement. A handicapped person is but one such type of individual who has died without law.

5. Verse 73 mentions another group of terrestrial heirs who were taught the gospel in spirit prison and accepted. The contradiction here is if they accept the gospel and are completely cleansed and have entered into the same covenant of baptism and are born again becoming a son or daughter of Christ, how come they are denied the presence of the Father in his eternal kingdom? Have they not become the very same individual as you or I?

6. Verse 85 mentions a group who will not be redeemed until the last resurrection. Thecontradiction here is that the last resurrection is the resurrection of the damned and only befalls the sons of perdition.

7. Verse 88 mentions there will be ministering spirits that come from the terrestrial to minister to the telestial. The contradiction here is that there are only supposed to be resurrected immortals on the terrestrial world at that time not spirits. All are supposed to be resurrected at this point.

8. Verse 99 mentions a group who Paul addressed in the New Testament as fellow saints in Christ. The contradiction here is that Paul must have been a liar.

9. Verse 102 mentions a telestial group who is the only group not gathered with the members of the church of the firstborn and received intothe cloud. The glaring contradiction here is that there are only two groups here - the members of the church of the firsborn and those telestial who are not as mentioned. But, members of the church of the firstborn who are received into the cloud are only celestial heirs. This verse describes all the celestial heirs and the rest who are not gathered up who are telestial. So what about the terrestrial?

10. The most glaring contradiction of all is verse 103 which are described as all liars, whoremongers, etc. The contradiction here is that this group, as cross referenced are those who partake of the second death. The second death only happens after resurrection and judgment after the millennium. The spns of perdition are the only ones according to section 76 and other scripture who partake of the second death. So why are the sons of perdition mentioned as telestial beings?

[Guest MormonGator]

13 hours ago, Larry Cotrell said:

There are bits of truth here and there throughout religions because Satan knows that the more truth something has, the more convincing of a lie it is.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." 

I agree with this, more or less. If one religion says "Christ is the only way to salvation" (which I basically agree with) and one religion never mentions Christ at all, than how much do they really have in common? 

They have bits of truth here and there but in reality they are worlds apart. 

[Rob Osborn]

11 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I believe most people who bare their testimony on fast sunday know it's correct, otherwise they're just confused and misguided. And if we don't understand it any better than other Christians then why do we put more effort into it? What are your bean of Salvation Rob?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

1. Why is it that only the celestial are mentioned as coming forth in the resurrection of the just if we know the resurrection of the unjust are the sons of perdition? The contradiction here is that telestial heirs are said to come forth in the second or last resurrection which is the resurrection of the unjust meaning they are not justified through Christ to be saved from an eternal hell. How then can they be saved from hell? The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

2. Verses 40-43 describe the ones who Christ saves and makes all spotless which according to the verses is everyone but the sons of perdition. All these saved are made spotless through acceptance of the gospel according tothese verses. The contradiction here is that according to manuals, the telestial heirs never repent. How then can they be made spotless? I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able.

3.verses 50-70 describe the resurrection of the just. The contradiction here is that these verses, according to the BoM are the only ones who can be saved while those who fail these requirements must be cast into outerdarkness. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

4. Verse 72 mentions one group of terrestrial heirs as being those who "died without law". The contradiction here is that the scriptures state that a person who does not have the law cannot be judged by the law and are instead made whole through the atonement. A handicapped person is but one such type of individual who has died without law. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

5. Verse 73 mentions another group of terrestrial heirs who were taught the gospel in spirit prison and accepted. The contradiction here is if they accept the gospel and are completely cleansed and have entered into the same covenant of baptism and are born again becoming a son or daughter of Christ, how come they are denied the presence of the Father in his eternal kingdom? Have they not become the very same individual as you or I? No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

6. Verse 85 mentions a group who will not be redeemed until the last resurrection. Thecontradiction here is that the last resurrection is the resurrection of the damned and only befalls the sons of perdition. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

7. Verse 88 mentions there will be ministering spirits that come from the terrestrial to minister to the telestial. The contradiction here is that there are only supposed to be resurrected immortals on the terrestrial world at that time not spirits. All are supposed to be resurrected at this point. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

8. Verse 99 mentions a group who Paul addressed in the New Testament as fellow saints in Christ. The contradiction here is that Paul must have been a liar. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

9. Verse 102 mentions a telestial group who is the only group not gathered with the members of the church of the firstborn and received intothe cloud. The glaring contradiction here is that there are only two groups here - the members of the church of the firsborn and those telestial who are not as mentioned. But, members of the church of the firstborn who are received into the cloud are only celestial heirs. This verse describes all the celestial heirs and the rest who are not gathered up who are telestial. So what about the terrestrial? They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

10. The most glaring contradiction of all is verse 103 which are described as all liars, whoremongers, etc. The contradiction here is that this group, as cross referenced are those who partake of the second death. The second death only happens after resurrection and judgment after the millennium. The spns of perdition are the only ones according to section 76 and other scripture who partake of the second death. So why are the sons of perdition mentioned as telestial beings? As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

1. The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

2. I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able.

3. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

4. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

5. No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

6. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

7. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

8. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

9. They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

10. As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Obviously the LDS church is the only church on earth with the full truth, but are there other religions that have some of the truths? Catholicism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. like some have beliefs about loving one another as you would like to be treated, but then they turn around with a fictitious belief like the idea of reincarnation, which is totally against resurrection and heaven. Other religions believe in a heaven, but only in the heaven and hell, and not in the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms like we have the knowledge of.  And in respect to the topic, how lucky do you feel to be in a world full of 7 plus billion people and 1 of only 15 million in the world that is part of the correct path?

 

The parable of the Good Samaritan indicates that someone in a false religion can not only have truth but could have more of it than someone (a Levite and a Priest) in the true religion.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

The Articles of Faith assert that there are truths found elsewhere.

Jesus is the Son of God.  Does that become less true just because a Catholic said it?

[Rob Osborn]

47 minutes ago, CV75 said:

1. The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

Refer to verse 17 of this same section it says " 17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust."  Repentance is doing good. It refers here to the resurrection of the unjust as they who have done evil. These possibly cant be described as once evil beings but are now repentant. No, this must refer to them as in theier future current state as still being evil otherwise Christ would remember their sin no more. The resurrection of the unjust is also called the resurrection unto damnation which refers to those wicked people who will be cast into outer darkness.

 

2. I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able. 

The key word here is "cleansed" from all unrighteousness. This is synonymous with being spotless. The only way to become cleansed as 40-43 state is through the waters of baptism and the Holy Ghost.

 

Quote

 

3. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

 

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.Mosiah 12:25-27)

 

4. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus. 

Doesnt matter. If a person dies without law they cannot be judged by law. Read Moroni ch.8 "22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing"

 

5. No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

If one accepts Christ and vicarious baptism  in the spirit prison they become cleansed. Read D&C 138"58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

6. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

The last resurrection as previoysly mentioned is the wicked in the resurrection of the unjust. This is the resurrection of damnation. Read D&C 29 "26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

 

Quote

 

7. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

Read the verse it says "88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

A resurrected being is not a ministering spirit.

 

8. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

 

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

9. They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

Read it carefully. The verse describes only two groups- those caught up who are the church of the firsborn and these telestial beings not caught up. It describes and includes every person.

 

10. As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

Sons of perdition are the unrepentant at judgment. That is why they are referred in the present tense at that future state as still being liars, whoremongers, etc. Christ saves all the rest and they are not ever referred to that classification .

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

1. The phrase used to describe the heirs of the celestial kingdom is “just and true.” The “unjust” and “just” both have their kingdoms of glory (telestial glory for heirs coming forth in the last resurrection, and terrestrial glory for heirs coming forth after the celestial heirs who come forth in the first resurrection, respectively). The glory of the sons of perdition is not specified, or none.

Refer to verse 17 of this same section it says " 17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust."  Repentance is doing good. It refers here to the resurrection of the unjust as they who have done evil. These possibly cant be described as once evil beings but are now repentant. No, this must refer to them as in theier future current state as still being evil otherwise Christ would remember their sin no more. The resurrection of the unjust is also called the resurrection unto damnation which refers to those wicked people who will be cast into outer darkness.

 

2. I don’t see the word “spotless” in verses 40-43. But we are all become spotless when we are given a kingdom of glory in which we can abide the laws of that kingdom. They are sufficiently spotless to receive of the fullness of the Holy Spirit to whatever portion they are able. 

The key word here is "cleansed" from all unrighteousness. This is synonymous with being spotless. The only way to become cleansed as 40-43 state is through the waters of baptism and the Holy Ghost.

3. Please provide the Book of Mormon reference you are referring to as I can’t seem to locate the one you must be thinking of.

 

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.Mosiah 12:25-27)

 

4. People also die without law by choice and by not being valiant in the testimony of Jesus. 

Doesnt matter. If a person dies without law they cannot be judged by law. Read Moroni ch.8 "22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing"

 

5. No, they have become as much as they wanted to become. These verses do not addresses being cleansed, but my response for #2 would apply here as well, except for the terrestrial kingdom.

If one accepts Christ and vicarious baptism  in the spirit prison they become cleansed. Read D&C 138"58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

6. The last resurrection is for the heirs of the telestial kingdom (my response for #1).

The last resurrection as previoysly mentioned is the wicked in the resurrection of the unjust. This is the resurrection of damnation. Read D&C 29 "26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

7. Every angel has a spirit ("man is spirit", D&C 93:33 and "God is Spirit," John 4:24), and as agents of the Holy Spirit (verse 86) can rightly function as spirits, may minister through the spirit medium, and are probably perceived by telestial beings as spirits, considering the differences in glory.

Read the verse it says "88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

A resurrected being is not a ministering spirit.

 

8. I don’t see where Paul uses the term “fellow saints in Christ,” but in Corinthians he does forbid the saints to identify themselves with him or any other authority or savior than Christ, or to contend about it (which the telestial do, having the spirit of contention from the devil).

 

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

9. They also meet the description in verse 103, which the terrestrial heirs do not meet. “Last of all” indicates they come in the last resurrection, after the terrestrial.

Read it carefully. The verse describes only two groups- those caught up who are the church of the firsborn and these telestial beings not caught up. It describes and includes every person.

 

10. As in #9, the sons of perdition meet additional criteria than the heirs of telestial glory (see verse 35).

Sons of perdition are the unrepentant at judgment. That is why they are referred in the present tense at that future state as still being liars, whoremongers, etc. Christ saves all the rest and they are not ever referred to that classification .

 

1. Of course people can repent, both here and in the spirit world, and yet repent insufficiently to enjoy a resurrection of the just and true or the just, and only sufficiently for a resurrection of the unjust. Those of perdition do not repent.

2. Jesus came into the world to cleanse it from all unrighteousness, but that doesn’t mean everyone accepts that, as indicated in verse 52 (“that they might be cleansed…”).

3. People who do not join the presence of God, or the fullness, are cast off to lesser kingdoms to receive lesser ministrations.

4. Having no law is different than dying without the law due to choice and/or not receiving the testimony of Jesus (the spirit prophecy and whoever prophesies by it).

5. These verses do address being cleansed and receiving salvation according to their works as lived in the spirit.

6. D&C 29 teaches what I have been saying since each order of resurrection follows that initial sounding of Michael’s trump. D&C 76 fills in the details.

7. But a resurrected being, like man and God, are spirits, and when ministering to a lesser kingdom, are ministering spirits.

8. Paul is clearly telling them to repent of identifying themselves in terms of religion by or in the name of any human authority. His is not addressing those he calls his fellow saints, but those he is telling are called to be saints.

9. Speaking of two groups does not deny the existence of the third. But my other, equally salient point was that the designation of “Last of all…” refers to those of the last resurrection, or the telestial heirs.

 10. Sons of perdition are certainly unrepentant but more importantly, they are worse than unrepentant, which is why Christ saves all the rest in a kingdom of some glory.

Edited December 28, 2016 by CV75

[MarginOfError]

I take issue with the statement that the LDS church is the _only_ church with the _full_ truth. 

I can yield to the only church with the full authority to perform ordinances with God's authority, but I suspect we will eventually find that other churches have far more truth than we give them credit for, and that the LDS church has far more flaws than we recognize.

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I take issue with the statement that the LDS church is the _only_ church with the _full_ truth.

Not sure what your point is. Going strictly by the words you have written, I agree. The Church has the fulness of the gospel, but that is not the same as having "the full truth" -- a condition which does not exist on this earth. I agree that there is a great deal more truth in other churches than the Latter-day Saints sometimes recognize, and I also grant that the LDS Church (meaning the membership and its understanding) is not without flaws.

But I sense an implication that the Church somehow isn't as true as we make it out to be. If that is only my own inference, so be it, but in any case I very strongly disagree with that idea.

In Section 1, the Lord said that the LDS Church was "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased". Unless you want to argue that the wording implies that maybe there were other true and living churches on the face of the earth at the time, but that God just wasn't well-pleased with them -- and I assume you are not arguing any such point -- the only reasonable reading is that the LDS Church is indeed the uniquely "true" Church. Or at least it was in 1831.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Not sure what your point is. Going strictly by the words you have written, I agree. The Church has the fulness of the gospel, but that is not the same as having "the full truth" -- a condition which does not exist on this earth. I agree that there is a great deal more truth in other churches than the Latter-day Saints sometimes recognize, and I also grant that the LDS Church (meaning the membership and its understanding) is not without flaws.

But I sense an implication that the Church somehow isn't as true as we make it out to be. If that is only my own inference, so be it, but in any case I very strongly disagree with that idea.

In Section 1, the Lord said that the LDS Church was "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased". Unless you want to argue that the wording implies that maybe there were other true and living churches on the face of the earth at the time, but that God just wasn't well-pleased with them -- and I assume you are not arguing any such point -- the only reasonable reading is that the LDS Church is indeed the uniquely "true" Church. Or at least it was in 1831.

I think it's one of those answers that depends on your POV. If you ask a Catholic, they'll say (surprise!) the Catholic church is true and the only way to salvation. If you ask a baptist, they'll say the Baptist church is true and the only way to salvation. If you ask an LDS, they'll say basically the same. Yes it's an oversimplification but it's basically true.