Backed into a corner because of Church calling

[Guest Scott]

I don't know if any of you have ever answered a question like this, but I feel that I am in a pickle and back into a corner as far as a Church calling goes.

I have been executive secretary and a scout leader (at least until very recently-the scouting program in the Church is in limbo) for several years.   The executive secretary position has lasted through three bishops.  Recently, I was asked to be a counselor in the Bishopric.   The problem is that I haven't had a testimony for several years.  I am good at memorization and tried to memorize the scriptures and I just couldn't reconcile with some of them, but that's a whole different topic and is not what I am asking.

I have stayed going to church because it makes my wife happy and I still have felt that I have  helped people out.  I obey the law of chastity, word of wisdom, etc.  I believe in the concepts of the Church, Ijust don't have a testimony of the divinity of the Church or any other church for that matter.     

The problem is that no one knows about it and I live in a community where Mormonism is the largest religion (which isn't a bad thing).   All of our friends are in the Church.  Everyone keeps telling me that I will soon be Bishop.  I teach a lot lessons on marriage and fatherhood because everyone knows that I am a good husband and father (I bring my wife gifts and flowers every week, cook her breakfast all the time, treat her and the kids really well, etc).  After 25 years of marriage, my wife and I have only had three very minor disagreements.   I have given many talks and taught many lessons to both the adults and youth.  I am told what a good example I am to the youth.   I help out the ward members with moving, home improvement projects, etc.  In other words, everyone thinks that I am a model Church member.  My temple recommend expired a year or two ago and I am occasionally reminded that I need to get in for an interview, but it doesn't seen that anyone has noticed except for one member of the Bishopric.  My wife knows that my testimony is weak.

I don't know how to react to being called to the Bishopric.   Obviously, the answer is going to be "tell the truth".   I felt that I have told the truth thus far.   It is only in recent years that I lost my testimony and with new callings no one ever bothered to ask me if I believed in the Church and I accepted the callings.

Obviously, the calling to the Bishopric is something I can't accept, but I don't know how to break it to everyone.   A lot of ward members know that I was asked to be a counselor and think that I will be Bishop soon.   If I turn the calling down, a lot of people are going to know about it.    I'm afraid that if people know that I have no testimony they will feel deceived since I have done so much in the ward, including teaching the youth.   I have never been dishonest or told people that I haven't believed in the Church, so there was no intentional deception on my part.   I am just worried how it's going to affect ward members and friends.  I still care about those people.  I don't feel that I should accept this calling since I won't be able to answer the questions in order to be a high priest.

My first thought was to move, but my wife and kids don't want to do it.   Just the fact that I am willing to move because of this shows how much I feel backed into a corner over this.

Advice?

(And no, I'm not looking for advice on how to gain a testimony, etc.).

Edited September 16, 2017 by Scott

[omegaseamaster75]

This is an easy one, just say no to the calling. You obviously are having a lot of personal angst about it. Say no and when they ask why your are not required to spill the proverbial beans if you don't want to. Say something like "I am working on some personal issues right now" or " I need to strengthen my testimony" or "I can't do it and it's none of your business why"

So yeah, if you turn the calling down a lot of people are going to know it. So what? Are you concerned about appearances? 

You say that there was no deception on your part yet you are the executive secretary so at a minimum your good at faking it. 

You have a couple of options:

1. Decline the calling you don't need to explain yourself even if they ask. (this of course is the right decision) together with this you should continue to attend church with your wife and kids and participate with them.  At the end of the day living the church standards is a great way to raise a family even if you don't believe.

2. Accept and continue to fake it. 

 

[prisonchaplain]

This may sound ridiculous, but it sounds like you are so busy doing the right things and being the right person, that the core essential of who you are and what it all means has become hidden. So, perhaps a vacation is in order?  Whether you do a personal retreat, or take the family is up to you, but taking the time to slow down, pull out of the fast-paced routine, and breath deeply, may bring perspective. If you believe in God (or Higher Power) at all, being able to pray apart form your busy church life, may help. Being able to rest, to listen to music, to hear the ocean, or breathe mountain air--to just reboot.  You may not get all of your answers, but at least you'll gain some strength to figure out your course of action.

[Guest]

If I ever felt I couldn't in good conscience serve in a calling, and the only incentive to accepting such a calling is what everyone else would think, I would be honest and just turn it down until I felt comfortable taking it.  There is little worse than living a lie for appearance's sake.  I would just tell whoever asks you to serve, "I am not accepting this calling on the basis I feel uncomfortable with it due to the current state of my testimony."  (That said, I know you said don't tell you this, but I would work on getting a testimony, because God really does exist and the Church really is true!  Read the writings of the early Church fathers, the New Testament, the writings of LDS apologists, even college Biology textbooks - all have served to strengthen my testimony.)

It really doesn't matter what others think.  The truth is, others rarely think about us at all - they are too wound up in their own lives and keeping their family fed, clothed, and going to Church to care whether brother so-and-so turned down a calling or not.  If anyone does bother you about the calling, think of a way to gently tell them that is none of their business.

[Jane_Doe]

You're doing a lot of great things here and am on the right track.  You know that your testimony is weak, you're willing to admit it to yourself, and you know that the Bishopric calling isn't for you right now.   You know that you should say "no".

So what you should do: say "no".  

As to what other random people may think: why a person (any person) declines a calling (any calling) is not their business.  You are not required to stand up and announce why you declined from the pulpit.  If any busy body wrongly asks, a simple answer of "It wasn't going to work out" more than fulfills your obligation to answer.  There's not going to be any angry mob of youth's parents busting down your door, or anything like that.  What other people might think should in NO way be a consideration here.

Now, moving on to helping you: obviously if you want to keep on with your non-Bishopric status quo, you're welcome to.  If you're wanting to strengthen your testimony, I would suggest talking honestly with the current Bishop would be a good thing.  No, this doesn't mean the ward gossip train is going to latch on to you.  But it does give you a great resource for getting help if you want it.

[zil]

Hi, @Scott, welcome to the forums!   I hope you'll stick around.  Regardless, have you considered perhaps that God knows full well where your testimony stands?  That perhaps he inspired someone to call you to this position not so that you could serve in it, but so that you would have the incentive to face the things you've told us and figure out what to do about it?  In this case, I suspect you've plateaued (so to speak) and need a nudge to start moving again instead of hovering in "Pretendingville".

And, yeah, you said not to, but faithful Mormons can't help it, so, my recommendation is to read the Book of Mormon every day - just read some, and keep reading, day after day.  Don't worry about what it says, just read.

I'll say a prayer for you and your family and friends.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

You say that there was no deception on your part yet you are the executive secretary so at a minimum your good at faking it.

 

I don’t think “faking it” is the correct word as it seems that implies intentional deception.  I have done all the duties that the Executive Secretary is supposed to do.   I have never lied when someone asked me what I believe, but no one has asked me if I believe in the Church since my last temple recommend interview, which was more than four years ago (I still had a weak testimony at that time).

I haven’t ever faked a testimony either.   When asked to bear my testimony (which hasn’t been that many times) in recent years, I do so, but always on a concept.  For example, I will bear it on how much I believe in forgiving others and service.  I believe in those things with all of my heart.

Quote

Read the writings of the early Church fathers, the New Testament, the writings of LDS apologists, even college Biology textbooks - all have served to strengthen my testimony.

 

I have done all that and more.   I am very familiar with all of those writings.  This may be hard to believe, but I have almost 40% of the Bible memorized and much of the other standard works as well.  I started memorizing it on October 30 1989.  I have studied much into the Church history (not the Church histories from anti-Mormons), the early Church leaders, scriptures, Seminary and Institute manuals, etc.  (I guess I should mention that I have a brain “abnormality”, not really a disorder, which makes it easier for me to memorize things than it does for some other people).

People in the ward and in other places are amused by the fact that I can quote entire chapters in the scriptures off the top of my head and even quote the references linked to in the footnotes.

In fact, I am currently writing a book on Biblical history (the book discusses the relationship and history of the Biblical Jews as it relates to the modern European Jews, the Palestinians, and the people of Lebanon and Syria).  

I know all of those writings mentioned very well.  It was the attempt of memorizing and studying all the scriptures that actually caused me to lose my testimony.  It didn’t happen all at once, it happened over a period of many years because I can’t reconcile myself with some scriptures.

Anyway, I am going to turn down the calling and I would never lie in the interview since I know that I will be interviewed if I because a high priest.

I am not concerned so much about how people look at me, but that I will be letting people that I care about down.   I already feel that way and have for at least a few years.   As mentioned, I still care for the ward members very much and still want to serve them.  I assume everyone else would feel bad about letting down most of the people that you care about the most. 

Yes, I am turning down the calling.   I just wish that there was a way that I could feel good about it.   Perhaps that’s a question that can never be answered.

So, everyone posting is probably right in that it won't affect them much.   Letting people down that I care about does affect me however.

Anyway, thanks for all of the posts. 

[prisonchaplain]

@Scott, You feel bad about letting people down, and yet you must--and you know this. Some, maybe most, will be disappointed that the assumptions they made about you having a strong testimony were not true. However, my encouragement is that most who are closest to you--those who know about your struggle--will be relieved. How can you find your way (either towards a strong testimony, or towards something else) unless you cease doing and presenting as somewhat you are not? No, you don't lie. You don't give false testimony. Yet, people are believing they know about you, and they don't.

If you catch my religious affiliation, I can tell you that, as a young adult, I was deeply disappointed by "the two Jimmies" (Swaggart & Bakker). I grew up deeply respecting the ministry of those two men. In the end, I learned much about faith and spiritual living from them--even from their falls. When their truths were revealed it hurt, but those of us with our own faith walks did not falter. We learned. Those who have gained from your good work, will likewise grow and learn, even if they are disappointed for a season. God loves you, does not expect you to fulfill a role you do not fully believe.

I suspect the above will not make you feel good about it. Hopefully, the perspective will take some of the sting out, though.

[NeuroTypical]

Nothing wrong with not wanting to let people down.  
Nothing wrong with refusing to lie or be disingenuous.

Kudos for being honest.  When I've been in similar situations, I wouldn't turn down the calling, but I would explain myself.  "I'm willing to try if you think it's what the Lord wants.  But are you sure He wants someone that will say [x, y, z], when one of our youth comes up and asks me [a, b, c]?"

It's a good time to level with your priesthood leaders.  Your intentions and worries seem honorable.  If you decide to just flat out decline, whatever.  Just don't leave it at 'no', tell them why.  I can pretty much guarantee they'll be grateful for your honesty, and I can also pretty much guarantee you're not the only person with testimony issues they've worked with.

[BeccaKirstyn]

10 minutes ago, Scott said:

I am not concerned so much about how people look at me, but that I will be letting people that I care about down.   I already feel that way and have for at least a few years.   As mentioned, I still care for the ward members very much and still want to serve them.  I assume everyone else would feel bad about letting down most of the people that you care about the most. 

Yes, I am turning down the calling.   I just wish that there was a way that I could feel good about it.   Perhaps that’s a question that can never be answered.

So, everyone posting is probably right in that it won't affect them much.   Letting people down that I care about does affect me however.

Anyway, thanks for all of the posts. 

Your feelings of you feeling bad about letting people down that you care about are valid. You said it affects you, and no one can try to tell you otherwise. Try to come to figure out why it affects you, and maybe that will help you reconcile those feelings. 

If anything, this is a learning process and the feelings you have right now will help you to grow in a new area that you might need some development in that the Lord sees in you. 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Scott said:

I have done all that and more.   I am very familiar with all of those writings.  This may be hard to believe, but I have almost 40% of the Bible memorized and much of the other standard works as well.  I started memorizing it on October 30 1989.  I have studied much into the Church history (not the Church histories from anti-Mormons), the early Church leaders, scriptures, Seminary and Institute manuals, etc.  (I guess I should mention that I have a brain “abnormality”, not really a disorder, which makes it easier for me to memorize things than it does for some other people).

People in the ward and in other places are amused by the fact that I can quote entire chapters in the scriptures off the top of my head and even quote the references linked to in the footnotes.

In fact, I am currently writing a book on Biblical history (the book discusses the relationship and history of the Biblical Jews as it relates to the modern European Jews, the Palestinians, and the people of Lebanon and Syria).  

I know all of those writings mentioned very well.  It was the attempt of memorizing and studying all the scriptures that actually caused me to lose my testimony.  It didn’t happen all at once, it happened over a period of many years because I can’t reconcile myself with some scriptures.

Anyway, I am going to turn down the calling and I would never lie in the interview since I know that I will be interviewed if I because a high priest.

I am going to perhaps test the limits of propriety and ask a question I honestly wonder about.

Knowing what you know about chiasmus, hebraisms, wordprint studies, the miracle of an uneducated backwoods boy bringing forth an internally consistent work like the Book of Mormon that is full of complex philosophy, restoration of doctrines and practices of the early Church fathers, the way the Universe and all of nature is tightly ordered despite the natural tendency of things to go from order to disorder, the fact our DNA checks itself every time our cells divide, and a thousand other things I cannot think of at this moment, how can God not exist, and how can the Church not be true?  In light of such evidence which continues to come forth, is such a proposition even possible?

Moreover, could a few seeming conflicts or unresolved conflicts in scriptures (which they themselves admit are imperfect) really be enough to overturn the mountain of evidence of the truth of the Church? 

I tell you, there is something going on regarding the Church.  Something is up, something supernatural.  There is no possible way the Church is an elaborate scam made by men.  Either God or Satan is directly behind the Church, and given how many wonderful things the Church has done in the world in bringing people to Christ, serving others, and filling the world with light, there is no way Satan is behind it, as the New Testament says we will know a false prophet by its fruits.

I am just saying what is on my mind (which tends to get me in trouble sometimes).  I understand not everyone agrees with my opinion, but I honestly think there is so much strong evidence out there, both religious and scientific, that there is no way the Church is not true, and that doesn't even get into having a personal witness!

Edited September 14, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Guest Scott]

Quote

 Regardless, have you considered perhaps that God knows full well where your testimony stands?  That perhaps he inspired someone to call you to this position not so that you could serve in it, but so that you would have the incentive to face the things you've told us and figure out what to do about it

Regardless, have you considered perhaps that God knows full well where your testimony stands?  That perhaps he inspired someone to call you to this position not so that you could serve in it, but so that you would have the incentive to face the things you've told us and figure out what to do about it?

 Yes, I have considered those things.  I just don’t have a testimony anymore, even though I believe in many of the concepts and teachings in the Church (forgiveness, service, not judging others, being kind, getting an education, etc.

 In the past I have been called to things that I shouldn’t have as well, though it didn’t bother me at all like this one

 For example, when I was 19 years old, I was called to be scout master.  I fulfilled my duties to the best of my knowledge/abilities at the time.  When it came time for a scout camp, the leaders (including the bishop) were discussing rides for the boys.   I mentioned that I didn’t know if I was supposed to drive the scouts because I had heard somewhere that you were supposed to be 21 to drive youth to church or scout activities.   The bishop pulled me aside and said that calling me was a mistake since as per Church policy I wasn’t supposed to be scout master at all until I was 21.    He apologized and I was quickly released.

 Since I had been living away from my parents for a while (I joined the military on my 17^th birthday), I was married, and owned a house, it was just assumed that I was 21 (I didn’t know that I was supposed to be 21 when I accepted the calling and even though birthdays are on member records, it was missed).

 We moved not long after and while I was 20 and in a different ward I was also asked to be scout master.  This time I immediately said that I wasn’t 21 yet, but this time 21 wasn’t far away and I only had to wait a few months.

 After that I have been a scoutmaster on and off for 20 years, but the first one was still a mistake.  It didn’t bother me and still doesn’t, but this one does.

 Anyway, everyone is right.   I’m going to set an appointment with the Bishop and just tell him flat out what I said in the original post.

 I should have mentioned that a few years ago, I did try to do this a few times with a previous Bishop.  He couldn’t answer the questions about the scriptures either and told me to talk to the Stake President.  I did, but he just told me not to worry about it too much and gave the same standard advice of improving a testimony.   At that time I still had a weak testimony though.

Thanks for all of the replies.  I will do the right thing; I just wish that is was easier.   I guess life was never meant to be easy anyway.  

[Guest Scott]

 

Quote

 

Knowing what you know about chiasmus, hebraisms, wordprint studies, the miracle of an uneducated backwoods boy bringing forth an internally consistent work like the Book of Mormon that is full of complex philosophy, restoration of doctrines and practices of the early Church fathers, the way the Universe and all of nature is tightly ordered despite the natural tendency of things to go from order to disorder, the fact our DNA checks itself every time our cells divide, and a thousand other things I cannot think of at this moment, how can God not exist, and how can the Church not be true?  In light of such evidence which continues to come forth, is such a proposition even possible?

Moreover, could a few seeming conflicts or unresolved conflicts in scriptures (which they themselves admit are imperfect) really be enough to overturn the mountain of evidence of the truth of the Church? 

I tell you, there is something going on regarding the Church.  Something is up, something supernatural.  There is no possible way the Church is an elaborate scam made by men.  Either God or Satan is directly behind the Church, and given how many wonderful things the Church has done in the world in bringing people to Christ, serving others, and filling the world with light, there is no way Satan is behind it, as the New Testament says we will know a false prophet by its fruits.

I am just saying what is on my mind (which tends to get me in trouble sometimes).  I understand not everyone agrees with my opinion, but I honestly think there is so much strong evidence out there, both religious and scientific, that there is no way the Church is not true, and that doesn't even get into having a personal witness!

 

 

I do not believe that the Church is an elaborate scam, nor do I believe that Satan is behind it.

I truly believe that the Church leaders are good people, that they are doing good things, and that they believe that they are directed by God and that they aren’t trying to deceive anyone.   I believe them to be good examples in the world and I still enjoy the conference talks.    I want to commend the members of the Church for doing so much good in the world.

As far as the scriptures go, I don’t want to discuss this in too much detail because I don’t want to hurt anyone else’s testimony or to cause an off topic debate, but it isn’t just a few scriptures, it is many.   If the Old Testament and Book of Ether didn’t exist, I would probably still have a testimony.

There are just too many scriptures that I can’t reconcile.   If you want a specific example, I will use the random example of Judges 11:28-40. 

I just can’t reconcile myself with the story that someone can participate in human sacrifices and still remain in good standing with the Lord.    I have studies such scriptures extensively and have tried to seek and study all other outside sources as well.

It doesn’t help that the Seminary and institute manuals use someone (Kassler) who was against our Church as the source to say it never happened and the story was mistranslated.    The Seminary and Institute manuals are in direct contrast to what Joseph Smith and the Bible Dictionary say about the story.  

To me the story in the Bible is very clear.   According to the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish translating the book of Judges), Jephthah sacrificed his innocent daughter as a burnt offering after the spirit of the Lord entered him.    He also remained a leader of high esteem after this happened and was even commended in the New Testament (Hebrews 11:32-34).

Needless to say, those kinds of stories are all skipped over in Sunday School, Seminary, etc. 

I just haven’t been able to reconcile myself which such scriptures, which is why I lost my testimony of them after trying to memorize them in their entirety. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Scott said:

 

 

I do not believe that the Church is an elaborate scam, nor do I believe that Satan is behind it.

I truly believe that the Church leaders are good people, that they are doing good things, and that they believe that they are directed by God and that they aren’t trying to deceive anyone.   I believe them to be good examples in the world and I still enjoy the conference talks.    I want to commend the members of the Church for doing so much good in the world.

As far as the scriptures go, I don’t want to discuss this in too much detail because I don’t want to hurt anyone else’s testimony or to cause an off topic debate, but it isn’t just a few scriptures, it is many.   If the Old Testament and Book of Ether didn’t exist, I would probably still have a testimony.

There are just too many scriptures that I can’t reconcile.   If you want a specific example, I will use the random example of Judges 11:28-40. 

I just can’t reconcile myself with the story that someone can participate in human sacrifices and still remain in good standing with the Lord.    I have studies such scriptures extensively and have tried to seek and study all other outside sources as well.

It doesn’t help that the Seminary and institute manuals use someone (Kassler) who was against our Church as the source to say it never happened and the story was mistranslated.    The Seminary and Institute manuals are in direct contrast to what Joseph Smith and the Bible Dictionary say about the story.  

To me the story in the Bible is very clear.   According to the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish translating the book of Judges), Jephthah sacrificed his innocent daughter as a burnt offering after the spirit of the Lord entered him.    He also remained a leader of high esteem after this happened and was even commended in the New Testament (Hebrews 11:32-34).

Needless to say, those kinds of stories are all skipped over in Sunday School, Seminary, etc. 

I just haven’t been able to reconcile myself which such scriptures, which is why I lost my testimony of them after trying to memorize them in their entirety. 

 

 

 

Ah yes the Old Testament.  

There is indeed some strange stuff in there.  I daresay the thing is pretty mistranslated, likely far more than the newer and better preserved and frankly far more important New Testament.  

I personally believe there is much more to the story in Judges than meets the eye.  Either the sacrifice didn't happen, or the person doing the sacrifice did not remain in good standing with the Lord (though, given the fact that the Israelites were pretty wicked by that time, it wouldn't surprise me if such a man remained a national hero or whatever).

The thing about the Old Testament is, in light of Christ superceding the Law, the Old Testament just isn't that important to us.  As such, if Joseph Smith did comment on it (and I am unfamiliar with what he said about it), I question if he really gave much thought to the chapter or spoke prophetically regarding the chapter.  I am sure Joseph had much more on his mind in trying to lead the Church and help his Saints than reconcile through revelation a very strange and obscure story from thousands of years ago that has almost nothing to do with the gospel today.

By the way, the scripture in Hebrews also praises David for being mighty and all that, and like Jephthah, while it is true that these two did some great things for Israel as a nation, we know David eventually sinned, murdered, and lost his exaltation.  Perhaps the same can be said of Jephthah, of a mighty man making a huge mistake and losing it all.  There is nevertheless nothing wrong with the New Testament praising the good things the man did.

As for Ether, the story is so bare-bones that it really doesn't give us very much information about what happened.  Long ago I stopped trying to figure out the mechanics of how the people made it over in barges, etc. because the information is simply not there.  The whole point of Ether is that people who inhabit the Americas should remember to stay righteous, lest destruction befalls them, and Ether does a good job of conveying this message, but it reveals so little other information I would doubt any doubts coming from the book.

Edited September 14, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[NeuroTypical]

You sound so much like me in my '20's, it's not even funny.  Now, with a few decades of hindsight, one of the things I would NOT change was my absolute devotion to honesty and logic.  There were things I knew, things I did not know.  The reality and divinity of Jesus Christ, the truthfulness of the Gospel, the BoM being exactly what it claims to be - these were all things I did not know.

I believe being transparent and honest with your church leaders will serve you well.  I don't know about your wife and kids though - be very careful there.

[zil]

IMO, there are things every single one of us has to "put on a shelf" (and wait for some future time - even if it's long after death - when understanding will be given).  Some of us have more on our shelves than others.  The changes to each person's shelf will vary widely.  But unless you learn to build a shelf and put things on it, you will be unhappy (or unhappier than is necessary) - not just in the gospel, but in life, because the world has way, way too many things that are entirely unacceptable and intolerable.

[Midwest LDS]

By the way @Scott I appreciate you're willingness to be honest with your friends and family with a subject you know will be difficult to talk about. Honesty is always the best policy, even when it's hard as you know, and you wouldn't be an effective member of the bishopric without a testimony of Jesus Christ. My advice to your initial question you've already done (or will do) but don't give up. You have a lot of opportunity to grow your testimony, especially sonce you have observed the goodness of the fruits of the Gospel. You've mentiomed several times that you can still testify of several of these fruits, but to me it sounds like what you need most is a personal relationship with Christ. He is the foundation of any testimony and without that, you'll never find a satisfactory answer to the questions about the scriptures that you raise. I know you can find him brother, because I have, and He is there! Christ saved me, in a deep and very personal way and I know Him and have felt His love and His peace. No man can give you that knowledge, but you can find Him, and once you find Him you will find answers to your other concerns about the Church. Thanks for sharing your concerns with us, and I will pray for you in this difficult time.

[Midwest LDS]

14 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

 

Incidentally, in case you are interested there is an explanation about Jephthah in the Old Testament study guide you may find interesting. It's a long text, but it answered questions I had about that same text. I know that isn't going to erase your concerns, but I think it's helpful nonetheless. 

"Jephthah was compelled by his vow to dedicate his daughter to Jehovah in a lifelong virginity. … The entreaty of the daughter, that he would grant her two months’ time, in order that she might lament her virginity upon the mountains with her friends, would have been marvellously out of keeping with the account that she was to be put to death as a sacrifice. To mourn one’s virginity does not mean to mourn because one has to die a virgin, but because one has to live and remain a virgin. But even if we were to assume that mourning her virginity was equivalent to mourning on account of her youth. … ‘it would be impossible to understand why this should take place upon the mountains. It would be altogether opposed to human nature, that a child who had so soon to die should make use of a temporary respite to forsake her father altogether. It would no doubt be a reasonable thing that she should ask permission to enjoy life for two months longer before she was put to death; but that she should only think of bewailing her virginity, when a sacrificial death was in prospect, which would rob her father of his only child, would be contrary to all the ordinary feelings of the human heart. Yet, inasmuch as the history lays special emphasis upon her bewailing her virginity, this must have stood in some peculiar relation to the nature of the vow. …’ (P. Cassel, p. 473). And this is confirmed by the expression, to bewail her virginity ‘upon the mountains.’‘If life had been in question, the same tears might have been shed at home. But her lamentations were devoted to her virginity, and such lamentations could not be uttered in the town, and in the presence of men. Modesty required the solitude of the mountains for these. …’ (P. Cassel, p. 476). And so, again, the still further clause in the account of the fulfilment of the vow, ‘and she knew no man,’ is not in harmony with the assumption of a sacrificial death. This clause would add nothing to the description in that case, since it was already known that she was a virgin. The words only gain their proper sense if we connect them with the previous clause, he ‘did with her according to the vow which he had vowed,’ and understand them as describing what the daughter did in fulfilment of the vow. The father fulfilled his vow upon her, and she knew no man; i.e. he fulfilled the vow through the fact that she knew no man, but dedicated her life to the Lord, as a spiritual burnt-offering, in a lifelong chastity. … And the idea of a spiritual sacrifice is supported not only by the words, but also most decisively by the fact that the historian describes the fulfilment of the vow in the words ‘he did to her according to his vow,’ in such a manner as to lead to the conclusion that he regarded the act itself as laudable and good. But a prophetic historian could never have approved of a human sacrifice.” (Keil and Delitzsch, Commentary, 2:1:392–93.)"

Edited September 14, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[Vort]

@Scott, my advice is not to turn down the calling point-blank. Rather, when the stake presidency member asks to meet with you, request to meet instead with the stake president. Then talk with him. He is your quorum leader and direct Priesthood leader, and has the authority and keys to address these issues in detail.

I understand that leaders don't always address things well, at least not the first time. Someone I love very much has had doubts and questions. His bishop, a good and sincere man but no philosopher, told him something like, 'Look, if the Church were not true, would millions of people believe it?" I cringed when I heard about that. He has not talked to me about the topic, and probably won't, so my opportunity to give him input is limited. So all I can really do is pray that his Priesthood leaders are inspired to do better than say nonsense like that.

The point is, talk to your stake president, and if he gives you the facile answer, let him know that that doesn't really do it for you. And as for the calling, tell him that you do not feel comfortable taking a calling in a bishopric when you do not feel that you have a solid testimony of the Church. That's my advice, fwiw.

[Vort]

PS Don't worry about what other people might think. I understand that living in a majority-Mormon area has its challenges, but the only person whose opinion really counts is your wife's, and she is in your corner.

[Guest Scott]

52 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Scott, my advice is not to turn down the calling point-blank. Rather, when the stake presidency member asks to meet with you, request to meet instead with the stake president. Then talk with him. He is your quorum leader and direct Priesthood leader, and has the authority and keys to address these issues in detail.

I understand that leaders don't always address things well, at least not the first time. Someone I love very much has had doubts and questions. His bishop, a good and sincere man but no philosopher, told him something like, 'Look, if the Church were not true, would millions of people believe it?" I cringed when I heard about that. He has not talked to me about the topic, and probably won't, so my opportunity to give him input is limited. So all I can really do is pray that his Priesthood leaders are inspired to do better than say nonsense like that.

The point is, talk to your stake president, and if he gives you the facile answer, let him know that that doesn't really do it for you. And as for the calling, tell him that you do not feel comfortable taking a calling in a bishopric when you do not feel that you have a solid testimony of the Church. That's my advice, fwiw.

Thanks you.    This is great advice and will do this.

[Guest Scott]

I believe being transparent and honest with your church leaders will serve you well.  I don't know about your wife and kids though - be very careful there.

My wife is fully aware of my state of testimony.   She is the #1 reason I go to Church and fulfill my callings, even though there are many other important reasons, such as my love for the ward members (and especially the youth).

My wife knows (there is no way she could not know when I didn't renew my temple recommend), but she wants (I do too, but believing is hard) a forever family, so she believes that as long as I try to serve that we will be a forever family.    I love her very much.   We know each other far too well for us to hide things from each other.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

There are just too many scriptures that I can’t reconcile.   If you want a specific example, I will use the random example of Judges 11:28-40. 

It doesn’t help that the Seminary and institute manuals use someone (Kassler) who was against our Church as the source to say it never happened and the story was mistranslated.    The Seminary and Institute manuals are in direct contrast to what Joseph Smith and the Bible Dictionary say about the story.

I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage.  

1. Where is Kassler mentioned in the Seminary manual?
2. And what did Joseph say about the story?  Quote?  Reference?

2 hours ago, Scott said:

To me the story in the Bible is very clear.   According to the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish translating the book of Judges), Jephthah sacrificed his innocent daughter as a burnt offering after the spirit of the Lord entered him. 

Apparently not so clear.  Jephthah did NOT offer his daughter up as a burnt offering (i.e. human sacrifice on an altar by blood and death).  That's not the meaning of the passage.

2 hours ago, Scott said:

Needless to say, those kinds of stories are all skipped over in Sunday School, Seminary, etc. 

You're contradicting yourself.  If the seminary and institute manuals go into depth on the topic, how is it you can claim we skip over the topic?  Sunday School, I can understand.  That class is just for the basics and general understanding of the scriptures, not matters of trivium like this passage.

2 hours ago, Scott said:

I just haven’t been able to reconcile myself which such scriptures, which is why I lost my testimony of them after trying to memorize them in their entirety. 

Many others have memorized the scriptures in their entirety.  And Jews are completely aware of this story.  Yet, so many others have not lost their testimony over it.  Why you?  You're not as smart as you think you are.  Or, rather: You are a pretty smart guy.  Unfortunately:

1. You're absolutely aware of it.
2. You believe it makes you able to render judgment better than others.
3. You place much more emphasis on trivium than on the weightier matters of the gospel: Judgment, Mercy, & Faith.

Learning of facts and figures is one thing.  Understanding eternal principles is only found through the Spirit (Divine Intelligence) not through mortal intelligence.

Beware of pride.  Only through humility can the Lord help you.  Remember that the Lord created us in His image.  Don't attempt to create God in yours.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Incidentally, in case you are interested there is an explanation about Jephthah in the Old Testament study guide you may find interesting. It's a long text, but it answered questions I had about that same text. I know that isn't going to erase your concerns, but I think it's helpful nonetheless. 

Yes, I have studied the Old Testament Study Guide extensively and am very well familiar with the writings from Cassel (more than one spelling), Keil, and Delitzsch, all of which are whom the study guide is quoting.   The problem with that explanation is that is the exact opposite of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish the book of Judges), the Bible Dictionary, and the Chapter headings in the Scriptures.    The JST, Bible Dictionary, and Chapter headings make it clear that the daughter was indeed sacrificed (the word burnt offering is specifically mentioned).   While it may be true that the Bible Dictionary is not considered official doctrine (the introduction to the Bible Dictionary even clarifies this), the JST is.

I don't know if you know this, but Cassel, whom is quoted as the source wasn't ever a member of our Church, in fact he didn't believe in it. Cassel was a Bible scholar, temperance preacher, and publisher, not of our faith.  I'm actually not sure why the Old Testament uses his explanation that goes directly against the JST translation of the Bible.  There are many other instances of this as well.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.   It is not my intention to get in a debate about certain scriptures.

I am glad that all of you, after careful study have been able to reconcile yourself with hard scriptures.   It's just difficult for me.  

If anyone would like to discuss certain scriptures privately, perhaps that is better than in the forum.  I wouldn't mind doing this at all.

 I don't want my posts to make it sound like I'm trying to tear down anyone's faith or tear down the Church.

In fact, I want to believe everything the Church has to offer.  I wish I did.  It would make things so much easier.   It's not that I don't want to believe.  I really do want to.  I just can't at this time.   That's all about me though and not about you guys.

[Guest Scott]

 

Quote

 

I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage.  

1. Where is Kassler mentioned in the Seminary manual?

 

 

I mentioned that I have about 40% of the Bible memorized.  I did not say that I have the Seminary manual memorized, even though I have studied it extensively.  Kassler was a misspelling (though it is also spelled in the Seminary Manual as to the most common spelling of Cassell). 

 

1. Quote

   And what did Joseph say about the story?  Quote?  Reference? 

 

Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Book of Judges.   You can check this for yourself in the Church History.   He did not change the words burnt offering (Judges 11:32).

Quote

Apparently not so clear.  Jephthah did NOT offer his daughter up as a burnt offering (i.e. human sacrifice on an altar by blood and death).  That's not the meaning of the passage.

So are the scriptures true of not?   Here is what they say.   This is a direct cut and paste from the Old Testament off LDS.org (with bold parts added by me):

29 ¶ Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32 ¶ So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.

33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34 ¶ And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrelsand with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.

36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, evenof the children of Ammon.

37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Quote

You're contradicting yourself.  If the seminary and institute manuals go into depth on the topic, how is it you can claim we skip over the topic?

In the lessons they do skip over it.   Yes, it is in the seminary and institute manuals, but the explanation of the sacrifice is in direct contrast to the JST, Bible Dictionary, and Chapter Headings.

Bible Dictionary (direct cut and paste):

Jephthah 

Judge of Israel; for his history see Judg. 11–12. He is chiefly known for his rash vow, in consequence of which he offered his own daughter in sacrifice. He is commended in Heb. 11:32, probably because of his delivery of Israel from Ammon.

So is Cassel, whom is quoted as the source in the Manual you are referring to and whom  wasn't ever a member of our Church, and whom considered it to be a fraud correct that Jephthah never sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering and only gave her into service to the Lord?   Is so, why is referred to as a "rash vow" in the Bible Dictionary?  Would it be a rash decision if he really did offer her unto service of the Lord?   Why did Joseph Smith's translation say burnt offering?  Why did the daughters of Israel lament her four days every year if she was only given in service of the Lord?  Wouldn't this be considered a good thing?  

To me the story is pretty straight forward and the words burnt offering are very clear.   I just used that scripture as a random example of one of the many I haven't been able to reconcile.  

I am not trying to argue scripture at all.    If you really do know more and can help reconcile some of this, I'd be more than happy to discuss this privately with you.  In fact, I would be incredibly grateful.  I have many questions about many scriptures.  Can you PM or email me?

Quote

Yet, so many others have not lost their testimony over it.  Why you?

That is a question I have been trying to answer for years.

 

1. Quote

   You believe it makes you able to render judgment better than others.

I am not judging anyone here, at least not in a negative manner.   I am glad that you have such faith.  I just don't and I haven't been able to reconcile this.  This is not easy for me.  This has been a real struggle for me.  I want to believe and wish that I did.   If you think I am judgmental, the only judgement I might have is that I admire you for your faith and wish that I had the same.

I do not think the gospel to be evil.  I believe it can bring out a lot of good in people.  I have seen it over and over again.

I believe in many principles of the gospel, especially about love for others, forgiveness, charity, service, etc. I do all of these things to the best of my ability.  I already know that I am lacking in faith.  You don't have to convince me of this.  I already know.  Do you think I haven't tried to pray and study about all of this?  I can assure you that I set out to memorize the scriptures in order to strengthen my faith and that my intentions were sincere.

This is not what I have been asking for advice on.

Public scripture debate just make things harder, and I'm afraid they might be counter productive, so please PM me.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Scott