Hallway Mormons

[Midwest LDS]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Have you played Knights of Pen and Paper 2? The first was a great game but an annoying bug makes the game unplayable. The sequel is decent. 

I'll check it out. It would be fun to have something else to play on my phone. Right now the only phone game I play regularly is Star Realms a Customizable Card game.

[Guest]

I was a hallway Mormon for a lot of my life.  But I had a variety of reasons for different phases of my life.

One phase: I was just an uppity teenager and college student who didn't care.

Another: I couldn't stand the perfumes that the females (and even the males) would wear to church.  I'd get headaches.  So, I kept away from classes when I could.

Another: I couldn't stand the teachers (various teachers for various reasons).

Another: I was just plain arrogant and didn't think it did me any good.  But other times, it was actually true simply because of the class or teacher.

Another: I was busy taking care of my calling, and that hour was about the only time I had to do it.

Another: I just needed some time to myself.  I can't get that at home or work.

Another: I was an adult really struggling with my testimony.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Excellent point @JohnsonJones if you can find a decent RPG for a phone, you could get around my argument against mobile games...if☺.

RPGs (good ones) are actually really well represented on mobile:

Shadowrun, Dragon Quest 1-8, Final Fantasy 1-9, 9th Dawn, Aralon 1-2, Ravensword 2, Balder's Gate 1-2, Icewind Dale, The Quest, Star Wars: KOTR.

The real problem is finding decent FPS/Stealth.  I have Deus Ex: The Fall, Max Payne and Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, and I really don't care too much for linear Call of Duty type games.  About the best I can do is my emulated version of Doom on PS1 . . . it makes me sad, because I think my mobile phone could easily handle Metal Gear Solid 3, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, The Operative: No One Lives Forever, or perhaps even Far Cry 1.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was a hallway Mormon for a lot of my life.  But I had a variety of reasons for different phases of my life.

One phase: I was just an uppity teenager and college student who didn't care.

Another: I couldn't stand the perfumes that the females (and even the males) would wear to church.  I'd get headaches.  So, I kept away from classes when I could.

Another: I couldn't stand the teachers (various teachers for various reasons).

Another: I was just plain arrogant and didn't think it did me any good.  But other times, it was actually true simply because of the class or teacher.

Another: I was busy taking care of my calling, and that hour was about the only time I had to do it.

Another: I just needed some time to myself.  I can't get that at home or work.

Another: I was an adult really struggling with my testimony.

You were also banished to the hallway because of your poor hygiene and lousy personality, but anyway. 

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

You were also banished to the hallway because of your poor hygiene and lousy personality, but anyway. 

The politically correct terms would be "fashionably challenged" and having Asperger's.

[Traveler]

Wisdom from my father.

Regardless of how simple the task there will always be some that will struggle and fail.  It would also seem that regardless of the difficulty of a task some will find means to keep at it until a solution is found.  My father’s advice to me was to avoid failing at trivial and simple tasks and to remember that great and noble character is forged in greatness of failure (especially at tasks others fear to try) and the humility of great and unusual success.

For the record – I support all my brothers and sisters in whatever calling they are given – If someone were to ask me to move – I would likely do it without making a scene or complaint – unless they asked me to do something evil and contrary to what Christ would do.

I understand that many do not want to cooperate with other Saints for many reasons – and some may even be valid.  But that is not my concern.  I personally owe so much to so many others I could not live with myself and be genuine in my personal prayers and my quite but desperate midnight pleas if I felt contrary to supporting those who I have sustained, who are trying to fulfill a calling given them of G-d through the keys of his priesthood.

 

The Traveler

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

I'll check it out. It would be fun to have something else to play on my phone. Right now the only phone game I play regularly is Star Realms a Customizable Card game.

I RECOGNIZE THAT GAME!!!!

I play boardgames with my grandkids, and we all follow the boardgame scene as a family.  One of the cheaper games we found was Star Realms.  I don't have it on the phone or tablet, but we do have the actual card game (with the expansion Colony Wars you can all sit around the table and play a four player game).

If you like that game, another one that we play that is somewhat similar (but not really) is a game called Jump Drive and it's older sibling...Race for the Galaxy.  Jump Drive is more popular with the grandkids right now (we have them as young as 8 playing that one).

[JohnsonJones]

I suppose I should actually talk about the main topic...

I appreciate Hallway Mormons.  If they are youth I normally would remind them of class, but if they are adults, I appreciate that they are there at church.  The church is not just a place to teach, but for us to meet with each other.  Many who are in the hallways may have difficulties in the classes for various reasons, or are trying to come to church, but cannot go to the classes for various reasons.  I appreciate that they made the effort to at least come to church, even if they are not in the various classes available at the time.

[askandanswer]

22 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@zil

And if I want to sit in the back, for whatever reason, I should be allowed to do so for heaven's sake.  Better in that back row (or wherever) than the hallway.  

In my ward there are always some people who routinely ignore requests to not sit at the back and to move forward. The person who makes the request almost never asks twice, accepts their right to sit where they choose and just continues on with their lesson/message. 

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

In my ward there are always some people who routinely ignore requests to not sit at the back and to move forward. The person who makes the request almost never asks twice, accepts their right to sit where they choose and just continues on with their lesson/message. 

The LAST thing someone should nag a person about is where they sit in church. Be happy the person shows up on Sunday and move on. 

[askandanswer]

21 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 All gamers are eternally condemned, and that is not a point you can debate. 

I'm absolutely delighted to learn this new doctrine as I've been feeling a little uncomfortable about the thought of sharing the celestial kingdom with gamers. I guess that God is wiser than I thought.

[askandanswer]

21 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ll save you a seat when I get to Hell

Make sure it's at the back

[Traveler]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The LAST thing someone should nag a person about is where they sit in church. Be happy the person shows up on Sunday and move on. 

 

Hmmmmmm - most likely the reason someone showed up at church in the first place is because someone (perhaps the spirit) nagged them.  No one should ever think that suggestions to cooperate with a teacher is ill advised.  I was taught and so taught my children – to respect, honor and cooperate with teachers – both at school and church.  I realize that there can be rare exceptions – but in my entire life experience I have not seen it.

But I am very interested why you feel it important to find reason to not support, cooperate or sustain a teacher at church?

 

The Traveler

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

But I am very interested why you feel it important to find reason to not support, cooperate or sustain a teacher at church?

You read into MG's message something very different than I did. 

Thanks MG,  I get it and appreciate it.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Make sure it's at the back

I’ll keep it cool

[Midwest LDS]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I RECOGNIZE THAT GAME!!!!

I play boardgames with my grandkids, and we all follow the boardgame scene as a family.  One of the cheaper games we found was Star Realms.  I don't have it on the phone or tablet, but we do have the actual card game (with the expansion Colony Wars you can all sit around the table and play a four player game).

If you like that game, another one that we play that is somewhat similar (but not really) is a game called Jump Drive and it's older sibling...Race for the Galaxy.  Jump Drive is more popular with the grandkids right now (we have them as young as 8 playing that one).

That sounds like fun @JohnsonJones I'll have to check out Race for the Galaxy. Star Realms is fun, I bought it for the phone after trying it out in person with my cousin. I really enjoy games like that.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Hmmmmmm - most likely the reason someone showed up at church in the first place is because someone (perhaps the spirit) nagged them.  No one should ever think that suggestions to cooperate with a teacher is ill advised.  I was taught and so taught my children – to respect, honor and cooperate with teachers – both at school and church.  I realize that there can be rare exceptions – but in my entire life experience I have not seen it.

But I am very interested why you feel it important to find reason to not support, cooperate or sustain a teacher at church?

 

The Traveler

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about or how you could draw these conclusions from my post. 

[Traveler]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:05 PM, MormonGator said:

Dude, I have no idea what you are talking about or how you could draw these conclusions from my post. 

 

and @LiterateParakeet

G-d has openly said that he chastens those he loves.  If Jesus was to attend Sunday School as the teacher and ask that all gather closer and move towards the front – what would we think of those that refused – or called his suggestion, nagging?   In the song of “A Poor Wear Fairing Man of Grief” we sing about how what we do to the least of those called of G-d; we do to G-d himself.   

My father would speak directly to me in such a manner if I ever came home and complained about any teacher (in school or church).  I was raised to hold teachers in higher regard than millionaires.  I was only broken from this respect of teachers by a select cadre of professors at college.  I realize that from time to time a particular teacher may over step the spirit of their calling but it is my opinion that asking the class to gather is not something I believe as abuse of station or something that should be criticized. 

Something else I learned from my father – which is why I made a reference to millionaires.  If people would be willing to move closer if offered $5,000 but would criticize a humble teacher struggling with a calling asking such a thing – I would – as a matter of respect and things I hold dear –support the humble teacher – even over the wealthy seeking respect and corporation with their money.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

Traveler, you seem to be under the mistaken assumption that those of us who would excuse those who prefer to sit on the fringes do so out of disrespect for the teacher.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  We do it because:

1) We know for absolute certain, some of them are dealing with problems which would be made unbearable by packing into the midst of others, shoulder-to-shoulder.  (This is not denying that some act out of simple preference rather than need; nor should acknowledgement of this preference be used to ignore the reality that some need that bit of separation.)

2) Equally certain is that we aren't always sure who needs that separation and who simply prefers it.  (Because no one is obligated to explain their nightmarish past to their Sunday teachers / leaders.)

I prefer to err on the side of compassion for those who need it rather than causing them so much anxiety that they leave and never return.  (Speaking here as a teacher and RSP who declines to insist that people sit anywhere other than where they choose.)

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

G-d has openly said that he chastens those he loves.  If Jesus was to attend Sunday School as the teacher and ask that all gather closer and move towards the front – what would we think of those that refused – or called his suggestion, nagging?

I am entirely certain that Christ would heal those who need it before asking them to do something that their past trauma prevents them from doing.  Unfortunately, I don't have that ability, so I let them sit where they are comfortable, knowing that this will yield the best results for them, and that as a teacher, the results for me are irrelevant - it's about them.

24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In the song of “A Poor Wear Fairing Man of Grief” we sing about how what we do to the least of those called of G-d; we do to G-d himself. 

I think you should go read this hymn again.  Did the POV character ask the man of grief to pack in close to the other beggars before helping him?  No, he dealt with that man one-on-one, as he found him.  Did he criticize the beggar for not sitting in the front row every week?  Or for getting himself into his grief-ridden state?  Not that I recall.

Again, you seem to think we're catering to a lazy or disrespectful attitude.  We think we're having mercy on the one who could barely force herself into the building and onto the last row.  You seem to think it's 100% always about willingness.  We recognize that for some, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - they might want to be able to move up, they'd likely wish for your "$5,000 seat-change bonus", but they can't bring themselves to do it.  Now I suppose your financial incentive would separate the unwilling from the unable, but at what cost?  Would it not drive the unable from the room in tears?  Would it not increase their shame and make them less likely to ever return, thus worsening their condition through further isolation?  And for what?  (That last one isn't really a rhetorical question.  I cannot for the life of me figure out what the benefit is of packing everyone shoulder-to-shoulder.)

Finally, I'll note that between these types of beings exists the one who will move as asked, but for whom there is a constant hum of discomfort keeping them from hearing all that's said and/or from feeling the Spirit (as much as they might have if able to listen without needless distraction).  Again, is the consequence worth it?

So while it's OK to invite and encourage, to insist is, IMO, a mistake (perhaps not in every instance, but unless you're certain it's not a mistake, it could well be a mistake).  Perhaps this is a change from your youth.  Perhaps it is reflective of a different part of the world than the one you live in.  Or perhaps we're getting more of the traumatized people through the door than we were before.  I don't know.  But when I'm in charge of the classroom, everyone gets to sit where they want, and that's not going to change.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Traveler, the hymn Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief could also apply to the person in the hall....the spiritual beggar as it were.   We covenant at baptism to bear one another's burdens.  That means supporting both the teachers and the people in the hallway.  

I spent the third hour in the hallway yesterday, not because I was being rebellious.  I was actually being respectful to the teacher but not attending and saying what I would have liked to say on the topic I knew they would be discussing.  She would have been completely discombobulated.  I could not possibly sit there and not make a comment because that would be too painful for me.  

You don't know why people are in the hallway, or not at church at all...but they deserve love as much as the teachers do.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@zil thank you!  I really appreciate your compassion in this.  I thought I had healed enough to attend Relief Society (as long as I'm allowed to seat where I'm comfortable) but something has come up that opened those old wounds.  And so I was in the hallway yesterday.  It's hard.  It just means a lot to me that you are so compassionate about these situations.  Thank you.  

Edited February 19, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[NeuroTypical]

I once heard someone describe their discipleship in an interesting way.  I wish I had captured the actual wording, but it was something like this:

"I'm out in the hall because I can't stand you people and your naive innocent ways. Don't get me wrong, I love you all, but your cluelessness about the harsh realities of the world grate on my nerves and make me want to scream some sense into you.  Tell you what - if you ever need to leave your abusive husband, give me a call and I'll help.  Anyone's kid ever ends up in prison or in detox, I'm the one to call.  I'll leave baking the "Glad you made bail" cake to the rest of you."

I'm a fan of people like that.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@NeuroTypical beautiful, thank you! 

[zil]

48 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@zil thank you!  I really appreciate your compassion in this.  I thought I had healed enough to attend Relief Society (as long as I'm allowed to seat where I'm comfortable) but something has come up that opened those old wounds.  And so I was in the hallway yesterday.  It's hard.  It just means a lot to me that you are so compassionate about these situations.  Thank you.  

My calling has opened my eyes a bit.  I have learned about trials in the lives of sisters who seem happy, who seem like they've got it all together - you would never guess they went (or are going) through such things just by looking at / listening to / observing them.  I have since changed my default assumption from "they've got the average middle class life" to "they've been through a hell I cannot even imagine".  Comments from my counselors and secretary have convinced me the second assumption is a better starting point (even if it's sometimes wrong).

Edited February 19, 2018 by zil

[Vort]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm a fan of people like that.  

Me? Not so much.

"Yeah, you folks are nice and all, but you're clueless. I'm the one who actually knows what's going on. I judge you to be naive and your insights to be worthless. Important things are what I say they are, and that includes things like women being beaten by their husbands and children being sold into sex slavery. All your worry about making a nice dinner for the ward social is absurd and pointless. So you ridiculuous little do-gooders just run along and talk about your silly, meaningless 'doctrine', but when you grow up enough to need help with REAL problems, give me a buzz. Until then, I have had enough of people like you."

Thanks but no thanks. People like this are welcome to their own solitude. Yes, evil exists in the world, but it's not the only thing (or even the most important thing) that exists. Those who focus on vomit and filth to the exclusion of the noble and beautiful live, well, in a world of vomit and filth. If that's what they love, they can have it. And if they think to shame me, they are eminently ignorable.