Are animals damned?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its kind of funny that no one can produce a scripture to back up these tbings and definitions they speak of. 

And it's hypocritical to refuse to admit that you can't produce a single scripture that defines your forced dichotomy.

Instead of admitting that the scriptures don't explicitly state either way, you'd rather go along with an anti-Mormon's interpretation rather than that of all modern prophets. 

How exactly are you still LDS?

Edited March 16, 2018 by Guest

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, and none of them are included in tge designation of the saved. Why? Because, if one is saved, he is saved from damnation.

 

Actually, there is a great deal of symbolism concerning salvation (saved), which is a core principle in the Plan of Salvation; in both ancient and modern scripture – as well as the teaching of living prophets.  At least that is what my studies have rendered.   I would purport that the process of being made clean (saved) from sin is perhaps the greatest mystery of G-d and the principle least understood by mortal man.

But like humility – those that brag the most about understanding the atonement likely are in more danger than those concerned about their lack of understanding; begging for forgiveness in their ignorance.

I would present as an example, the term “atonement” was one of the English words conjured by William Tyndale when he devised the first English translation of the Bible.  He was burned at the stake in part for the blasphemy of making up the word “atonement” that English-speaking Christians today take completely for granted.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And it's hypocritical to refuse to admit that you can't produce a single scripture that defines your forced dichotomy.

Instead of admitting that the scriptures don't explicitly state either way, you'd rather go along with an anti-Mormon's interpretation rather than that of all modern prophets. 

How exactly are you still LDS?

Are we even speaking of the same topic? I have put forth quite a few scriptures explaining the definition of damnation. Im still waiting for someone to produce a scripture explaining where Im wrong. No one is able to. I side with Joseph Smith on this issue. Is Joseph Smith anti-mormon?

[Colirio]

37 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im still waiting for someone to produce a scripture explaining where Im wrong. No one is able to. 

For what reason should anyone do so? 

 

The burden of proof is upon YOU to provide scriptural references that states that your definition of damnation has one and only interpretation as this clearly deviates from standard LDS teachings. 

 

Everyone here agrees that one definition of damnation is being damned to hell. Nobody has disputed that as far as I have seen. 

 

Modern prophets have clearly taught that damnation also means being stopped in one's progress. This is indisputably a LDS teaching. 

 

As you are the one deviating from the standard LDS teachings, please provide proof that damnation does not have more than one meaning. 

[Colirio]

Just a couple of references that show that damnation is having one's progress limited is a LDS teaching:

 

From the Bible dictionary:

Damnation

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges and hence be damned to that extent.

 

 

From the Guide to the Scriptures:

Damnation

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

 

 

And then there is the excellent answer from Gramps:

https://askgramps.org/what-does-it-mean-to-be-damned-as-mentioned-in-mark-1616/

 

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

Eternally restricting choice - isn't that Satan's plan? and yet that is what g-d is doing in the eternities - He is eternally limiting everyone's choices by placing them in one kingdom over another.

What is with people who insist that God is just like Satan?

God does not limit you. YOU limit you. God mercifully places you in a kingdom where you can live to the limit of the potential you have given yourself.

Please, stop with the absurd "God is Satan" idea. Seriously, I think it has run its course.

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, changed said:

 

What is the point of limiting the progress of any living being?  The merciful thing would be to leave the door open, allow all creatures eternal opportunity, and eternal agency, eternal choice... everyone and everything should always be allowed to change the road they are on.  Eternally restricting choice - isn't that Satan's plan? and yet that is what g-d is doing in the eternities - He is eternally limiting everyone's choices by placing them in one kingdom over another.

 

 

The only reason to “leave a door open” would be if there was not enough information to make an intelligent decision if the first place.  A door is only closed when someone has sufficient knowledge to choose to do so themselves.   

One could ask the question – why do you refuse to acknowledge that an intelligent individual is capable of making a choice as to what they want out of eternity?

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, no scripture eh? How can one know the mysteries without knowing the scriptures?

You do realize that there isn't a single scriptures that uses the words "Plan of Progression?" In fact, there is not one scripture that overtly delineates that Plan

Granted, there are several Book of Mormon scriptures that speak of the merciful and eternal plan of salvation and redemption and deliverance and restoration, and the Book of Abraham speaks of the plan of creation, but these plans are a subset of the overarching Plan of Progression, and they are far from detailed.

In a sense, the Plan of Progression, and even to some degree the subset plans, are mysteries because they, like a puzzle, have pieces scattered throughout the scriptures or are more fully revealed in places of higher learning--Sunday School,  Conference, and the temple. They are not spoon feed to us in plainness in our sacred canon, but are brought to our understanding through the pains of birth and the sweat of our brows--i.e. the curse of Adam and Eve.

In other words, smugly and repeatedly noting that not a single supportive scripture is produced, betrays a startling lack of comprehension of the mysteries, let alone the instructional ways of God, though perfectly fitting of one who easily dismisses church manuals and places himself and his private interpretations above the words of modern prophets and apostles.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, changed said:

We are eternal beings, with no beginning, and no end - we had already existed for eternity prior to Earth, and yet through all the pre-existence - all that eternity of time - we still did not gain the knowledge and experience we needed it seems.  

I do not think it is right for anyone, at any time, to cage another living entity.  It is not right to take away agency, to take away freedom, to take away the potential to grow and progress - and yet that is exactly what casting someone into outer darkness / lower kingdoms is doing, it is caging them like animals for all eternity.

 

You and I see judgement day very differently -  I see it as a personal review to insure we have all the knowledge to determine what we want.  I can understand someone not wanting anything to do with G-d.  So, when G-d ask them – in full knowledge – what they want – that they would try to lie.  I believe it is all about truth and what a person and determined. Those that love darkness and hate everything about light – G-d has prepared for them the perfect place of their choice.

Some will prefer to progress in darkness rather than light.  Of course, to be a being that prefers light; darkness will not be realized as progress.  Perhaps the great disappointment and unhappiness (misery) to those that choose darkness is that they cannot force others into darkness (forcing others to be miserable like themselves) and control them – which to them would be progress.  What you may think of as limiting someone is just not letting them or preventing them from forcing anyone else to do what they want.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

54 minutes ago, changed said:

The idea of independent spheres/independent isolated kingdoms and different degrees of glory really bothers me...  Heaven sounds like a segregated caste system where everyone is grouped with their own kind, with no diversity - even animals are segregated away?  That does not sound like a place that progression and learning can take place in.  

Learning takes place in a diverse environment - by surrounding yourself by things you are not familiar with, from the small to the large, the delicate to the strong - how is anyone supposed to eternally progress if heaven is not a mix of everything and anything?

It is interesting that you speak of learning in this context since, if you look at most any educational system, and most particularly the public education system in the U.S., they are replete with what you confusedly call "casts" and "segregation by kind." There are segregated grades or levels, and segregated schools (primary, secondary, junior high, high school, undergraduate, and graduate). There are also programs segregating children of special needs from children of advanced skills. There is also a sets of segregating rules governing advancement and acceptance into higher levels, and honors granted upon completion..

Sadly, though, these institution of learning have become increasingly ineffectual in producing learning and educated students, in part because they place a priority on diversity over learning, and have unwittingly sacrificed the motivation of competition to the de-motivation of equality of outcome, and have become indoctrination centers  for the quasi religion of socialism that promote some of the most astounding idiocy imaginable--including that hierarchical systems are a social construct, when in scientific fact they have been a core part of living and evolving nature for hundreds of millions of years..

But, that may just be the way I see it. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

What is the point of limiting the progress of any living being?  

It isn't the point. Rather, it is the consequence of personal choice. The point is eternal progression. However, people chose otherwise. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the people using their agency to reject the divinely instituted teachers and rely instead on their own ignorant and perverting flesh. In fact, look in the mirror.

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Colirio said:

Just a couple of references that show that damnation is having one's progress limited is a LDS teaching:

 

From the Bible dictionary:

Damnation

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges and hence be damned to that extent.

 

 

From the Guide to the Scriptures:

Damnation

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

 

 

And then there is the excellent answer from Gramps:

https://askgramps.org/what-does-it-mean-to-be-damned-as-mentioned-in-mark-1616/

 

Interesting that not one scripture is used to validate this understanding. Just commentary.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

You do realize that there isn't a single scriptures that uses the words "Plan of Progression?" In fact, there is not one scripture that overtly delineates that Plan

Granted, there are several Book of Mormon scriptures that speak of the merciful and eternal plan of salvation and redemption and deliverance and restoration, and the Book of Abraham speaks of the plan of creation, but these plans are a subset of the overarching Plan of Progression, and they are far from detailed.

In a sense, the Plan of Progression, and even to some degree the subset plans, are mysteries because they, like a puzzle, have pieces scattered throughout the scriptures or are more fully revealed in places of higher learning--Sunday School,  Conference, and the temple. They are not spoon feed to us in plainness in our sacred canon, but are brought to our understanding through the pains of birth and the sweat of our brows--i.e. the curse of Adam and Eve.

In other words, smugly and repeatedly noting that not a single supportive scripture is produced, betrays a startling lack of comprehension of the mysteries, let alone the instructional ways of God, though perfectly fitting of one who easily dismisses church manuals and places himself and his private interpretations above the words of modern prophets and apostles.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum...so, no scripture references eh? I ask this, and keep asking because Joseph Smith, who wrote the main scriptures of the D&C and translated the Book of Mormon, used the word as was understood by all of protestants of his day. So, why have we changed the original meaning and intent from Joseph Smiths writings and translations? And why isnt there any scriptures to back up this changed meaning?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Colirio said:

For what reason should anyone do so? 

 

The burden of proof is upon YOU to provide scriptural references that states that your definition of damnation has one and only interpretation as this clearly deviates from standard LDS teachings. 

 

Everyone here agrees that one definition of damnation is being damned to hell. Nobody has disputed that as far as I have seen. 

 

Modern prophets have clearly taught that damnation also means being stopped in one's progress. This is indisputably a LDS teaching. 

 

As you are the one deviating from the standard LDS teachings, please provide proof that damnation does not have more than one meaning. 

It will take me some time but I will do it. If you could gather up all your scriptures showing where Im wrong on this that would be great, we could share results.

[mordorbund]

On 3/14/2018 at 11:03 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't see any definitions there. I see associations. Just as I said.

Here's some others:

D&C 84:74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

And explain this:

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

How can there be a "greater" damnation is damnation is just "hell". There must be a lesser damnation if there is a greater one.

And:

D&C 132

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

And the real kicker, explained in black and white, as clear as can be for any who wish to see and understand, verses 19-27

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murderwhereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

The teaching is pretty plain here. Salvation unto exaltation by abiding by the law of God is directly converse to damnation by not entering God's glory by failing to abide by God's law.

"Hell" is uses entirely metaphorically in every usage. There is not literal hell as a place. It is a metaphorical state of damnation. In that regard, sure -- you're right. But only metaphorically. Literally, damnation is the state of being stopped. Being, literally, damned from eternal progression. That this is metaphorically a state of some type of "hell" is reasonable, because anything but a fullness of joy is a state of partial lack of joy -- and part of partial misery -- which is what the metaphorical idea of hell represents.

You're right @Rob Osborn, no one has provided any scriptures.

For comparison, here's RO's citation of damn's scriptural definition.

On 3/14/2018 at 10:29 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Sure-

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell. (D&C 121:23)

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. (Mormon 9:4)

 

[wenglund]

26 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so, no scripture references eh? I ask this, and keep asking because Joseph Smith, who wrote the main scriptures of the D&C and translated the Book of Mormon, used the word as was understood by all of protestants of his day. So, why have we changed the original meaning and intent from Joseph Smiths writings and translations? And why isnt there any scriptures to back up this changed meaning?

This is becoming something of an Abbott and Costello routine:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

You're right @Rob Osborn, no one has provided any scriptures.

For comparison, here's RO's citation of damn's scriptural definition.

 

No one has provided a scripture that proves the definition of "damned: to be stopped in ones progression"

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...so, no scripture references eh? I ask this, and keep asking because Joseph Smith, who wrote the main scriptures of the D&C and translated the Book of Mormon, used the word as was understood by all of protestants of his day. So, why have we changed the original meaning and intent from Joseph Smiths writings and translations? And why isnt there any scriptures to back up this changed meaning?

Joseph Smith also used it this way (as did Paul):

From 2 Timothy 3, those “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof,” who are “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth… shall proceed no further.” On the other hand, “the man of God may be perfect,” and according to 2 Timothy 4, receive “a crown of righteousness” and God’s “heavenly kingdom.” We take this to mean exaltation.

From D&C 131, there is a highest degree of celestial glory and two lesser that represent “the end” of the glory that the inhabitants might obtain, for the inhabitants thereof “cannot have an increase.” In D&C 132:4-6, “damned’ is described as not being permitted to “enter into [God’s] glory,” and as refusing “a fulness thereof,” both found only in the highest degree of celestial glory. 84:74 says the same thing. Ether 12:32 refers to this as a “more excellent hope” than any other house, “even among the mansions of thy Father.”

So if “damned” means not obtaining a fulness, and not obtaining a fulness can range from the unhappiness of the wicked in this life to a temporary stint in spirit prison to a post-resurrection assignment to a lesser kingdom of glory, what’s the problem?

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

No one has provided a scripture that proves the definition of "damned: to be stopped in ones progression"

LOL you haven't provided scripture that proves there is only one use of "damned."

Edited March 16, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Joseph Smith also used it this way (as did Paul):

From 2 Timothy 3, those “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof,” who are “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth… shall proceed no further.” On the other hand, “the man of God may be perfect,” and according to 2 Timothy 4, receive “a crown of righteousness” and God’s “heavenly kingdom.”

 

From D&C 131, there is a highest degree of celestial glory and two lesser that represent “the end” of the glory that the inhabitants might obtain, for the inhabitants thereof “cannot have an increase.” In D&C 132:4-6, “damned’ is described as not being permitted to “enter into [God’s] glory,” and as refusing “a fulness thereof,” both found only in the highest degree of celestial glory. 84:74 says the same thing. Ether 12:32 refers to this as a “more excellent hope” than any of the other house, “even among the mansions of thy Father.”

 

So if “damned” means not obtaining a fulness, and not obtaining a fulness can range from the unhappiness of the wicked in this life to a temporary stint in spirit prison to a post-resurrection assignment to a lesser kingdom of glory, what’s the problem?

 

The problem is one of principle. One of the effects of being damned is being punished to some degree, even to the point of limitations or compkete stopping of ones progress in the case of eternal damnation. But it isnt one of the effects that defines the word. As I related earlier you run into problems because the effects themselves are just part of the experience and those effects are also used to describe other things of which do not define the word. For instance, "torment" is another effect of damnation. But it isnt correct to say anyone in torment is in damnation. Does that make sense?

As such, the proper definition, according to principle, must apply. That proper definition is- punishment to hell in a future tense, or, the state of the wicked in hell. The effects of that damnation are things such as being in darkness, cut off from God, limited in ones progress, being in torment, being in darkness, etc.

As correctly applied, any mention of damnation/damned in the scriptures always refers to the punishment awaiting the wicked in hell. That punishment can be either shorter or longer, even permanantly in duration. At no time is damnation to be applied to the saved as the very thing they are saved from is damnation itself.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

Do you believe that every living spirit - animal and human - will be given the chance to eternally progress, and that this opportunity will never be taken away from them?

If you believe that a time will come when the opportunity to progress will be taken from some spirits, how do you justify limiting anything's potential?  

Your paradigm is screwed up. You insist (wrongly) on viewing eternal progression and advancement as something that someone is allowed to do. This is fundamentally wrong. But I despair of convincing you of that.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, changed said:

What living being would not want love/peace/empathy/kindness?  only one who does not know any better.

True by definition, but not useful. Satan does not want those things, because he doesn't know any better. He doesn't know any better because he has chosen the path of pride, hate, and rebellion. He has chosen his situation. As a result, he no longer understands even the most basic elements of Godliness. This does not lessen his guilt or make him a victim, except perhaps a "victim" of his own choices.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, changed said:

If advancement is dependent on God and Christ, then a large part of it is not up to us - we are, or are not, "allowed" to progress.

This would be true if the blessings of the atonement were something other than a free gift. But the blessings of the atonement are, indeed, exactly that -- a free gift, available to literally all who care to reach out and accept it. So your statement is false. Our advancement is in very fact completely our choice.

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, changed said:

It is not right to take away agency, to take away freedom, to take away the potential to grow and progress - and yet that is exactly what casting someone into outer darkness / lower kingdoms is doing, it is caging them like animals for all eternity.

@changed - i think you would enjoy "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis.  it's a super interesting take on the next life, and progression in general.  i'm not doing it justice, but i think it conveys the idea that there isn't much caging going on.  Just people choosing to stay where they are because they are currently struggling with letting go of something - but being welcomed to somewhere better - what the book refers to as 'deep heaven' - when they are ready.  i think it's my favorite of all Lewis' works.  

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, changed said:

a diversity of plants and animals, all living harmoniously with one another. 

I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote, changed. But the above is kind of humorous, in the sense that it's absolutely wrong. The ocean is not The Little Mermaid. it's an environment that makes a terrestrial jungle look like the garden of Eden. There is no harmony among sea creatures, just a ruthless Darwinian selection constantly in play. There's a reason that fish lay ten zillion eggs at a time.

[wenglund]

5 minutes ago, changed said:

Do you believe that every living spirit - animal and human - will be given the chance to eternally progress, and that this opportunity will never be taken away from them? 

If you believe that a time will come when the opportunity to progress will be taken from some spirits, how do you justify limiting anything's potential?  

It isn't that the opportunity is "taken away," rather the opportunity ceases to exist by virtue of personal choice and circumstances and by natural consequences, 

For example, woman have a biological clock where at some point the choice to progress by having children ceases to exist.

Death prevents a person from progressing further in mortality. 

Choosing to take certain drugs that are highly addictive may, at some point, effectively eliminate the choice to become clean and sober.

Choosing to play rather work may reasonably close the option to choose to progress at one's current employer, and may impact hire-ability in the future.

If a person drops out of school, at some point the opportunity to progress in education and to graduate with one's classmates, ceases to exist, in part because they have moved on.  And, if they continue to move on, while the dropout does not, the choice to keep up with the classmates ceases to exist.

I knew a man who, because of poor choices, contracted venereal disease that significantly distorted his body, which effectively eliminated the opportunity to marry in this life and play sports, etc.

After hem-hawing around for 4 years, the choice to marry the woman I loved ceased to exist when she eventually chose to marry another.

I could go on and on. The point being, Heavenly Father deeply desires that his children progress to become like HIm. However, in His infinite wisdom, he understands that choices have consequences, and often a series of choices have permanent consequences, and that to everything there is a time and a season, which is why He provided a great and eternal sacrifice to enable conditions of mercy and probation, and why he has His servants and teachers preach repentance..

It is just that some of His children choose not to listen, and may feel no reason ever to listen, particularly if they are prone to ignoring that there is a time and a place for everything as well as consequences.   

That, or they may choose to never progress beyond a certain point that is to their liking. And, God allows them their agency. Maybe they prefer to remain in an environment of equality of poverty and ignorance rather than live in a free society where diversity of choices result in diversity of outcomes. Sound familiar?

Thanks, -Wade Engulnd-