This is distressing...

[carlimac]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900028144/report-identifies-more-than-1-000-victims-of-priest-abuse.html

I have many Catholic friends who are very good people. I don't want to offend any of them but this is just sickening! 

 

It's also troubling in light of this honor the Church gave Cardinal Wuerl  https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/president-ballard-cardinal-wuerl-washington-religious-freedom

Sigh!

Edited August 15, 2018 by carlimac

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900028144/report-identifies-more-than-1-000-victims-of-priest-abuse.html

I have many Catholic friends who are very good people.

One of my closest friends is Catholic. Growing up Catholic I also think the majority are wonderful people. Same with priests. 95% of priests wouldn't dare harm a child. 

However the crimes are tragic and disgusting, and just saying that 95% of priests are good people doesn't excuse the 5% that aren't. 

And of yeah, the cover up will do far, far, far more damage to the reputation of the church. 

Every other church in existence should take notes. This is how not to handle scandals. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by MormonGator

[NeuroTypical]

The scale is shocking, but the rest isn't.  Thinking about the time period, I found this in a related CNN article: "DiNardo and Doherty noted that the grand jury's report spans 70 years, and many of the abuse accusations were made before 2002, when the bishops adopted new policies. The policies, known as the Dallas Charter, after the city in which they were adopted, have been revised in 2011 and 2018."

Truth: Humans used to not know crap about child sex abuse.  We didn't admit it to ourselves.  We didn't like to think about it.  We turned a blind eye when we saw it, because we didn't know what we saw and we didn't know any better.  We didn't have policies to cover it.  We didn't understand the seriousness.  We used to figure "just forgive and move on" was sufficient.  We used to believe that, because we were deficient (or willfully blind) in our understanding of the seriousness of the crime. 

Truth: This started to change in the '80's, much changed happened in the '90's and '00's, and now these days it's rare to find an adult that isn't aware of such things, or an institution that doesn't have some sort of policy about it.   The LDS church changed, the Catholic church changed, the BSOA changed, every organization changed.  

NT's opinion: It's a sad commentary on the human race that it took until the last 50 years of its multiple-millenia-long existence for any humans to start taking this crap seriously.  That said, whenever I see stuff like this, I make sure I hear about the timeframes of the alleged abuses before I get my "I'm so shocked!  This is so new and unexpected" face on.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

I have reached outrage exhaustion. Everyone is outraged by everything, such that when something truly outrageous happens, there's no good way to express it. Everything is hyperbole, including this statement.

[carlimac]

I'm uncomfortable with the fact that this is ho hum news.Or non-news for some. Have we become that numb?  Maybe not the right venue here or not posted prominently enough.

I know it's been going on for 70 ++++ years. I heard a little of a discussion on the radio this morning that brought up the question of why this is only happening in the Catholic church. Or is it? How soon before we find out this is happening in other churches, too. 

I want to know what in the minds of these priests justified this behavior and if they thought maybe there was nothing wrong with what they were doing? How could they live with themselves if they knew it was wrong? How soon before they change some rules that would hopefully help alleviate this problem? 

Maybe I'll go find a different forum to discuss this on. 

[Just_A_Guy]

@anatess2 can correct me; but my understanding is that the horror is less in the fact that a certain percentage of priests—like a certain percentage of the general population—are predators; and more to do with the church’s apparent cover-up.  And I think (again, Anatess2 can correct me) that a lot of the coverup comes from the church’s longstanding tradition that as an institution, it and its officers are not accountable to civil authority (sort of a diplomatic-immunity-on-steroids approach).  It’s not that they’re OK with sex abuse; it’s just that they reserved the right to deal with it through their own processes.

I don’t agree with the notion that the Vatican and its underlings (or any other religious organization) deserve that sort of deference from the state, but I can appreciate the historical underpinnings for such an idea.  My reaction to this news is less shock and anger; and more sadnes for the victims and a sense of quiet gratification that (AFAIK) the Catholic Church no longer operates in this way.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

What we today call "child sexual abuse" is as old as humanity. Many, many previous cultures (and probably many modern cultures) did/do not even find it objectionable. The ancient Greeks codified pederasty, and would have been shocked (and probably amused) to find that anyone had a problem with it. In many cultures, girls entered into sexual service pretty much as soon as they were physically able to engage in the act without (much) damage.

Shocking? Hardly. This is the human animal. In this, we are pretty much like any other animal. Sex is just something we do, like breathing, eating, and pooping.

The good news that Christ brought is that there is a higher, much better way. It involves sacrificing our carnal nature, and in its place receiving a Godly nature with attendant benefits. This is why we send missionaries throughout the world. Because the world will not -- indeed, cannot -- sustain a moral implementation of sexual activity. It is contrary to worldly nature to place value in the sacred. "Irreverent" is a common worldly adjective, usually used as a positive trait. The irony is palpable, but such is the nature of worldly activity vis-à-vis what God offers. The natural man is an enemy to God, because he can never understand what God is working to accomplish.

tl;dr -- Never be surprised that some people are predators, sexual or otherwise. And never suppose that worldly laws and institutions can ever serve as anything more than a dirty Band-Aid on the problem. There is one and only one solution.

[askandanswer]

I think Australia has taken a very commendable approach to dealing with child sex abuse perpetrated in an instititional settting. Back in 2012, the federal government announced a Royal Commission into Instututional Responses to Child Sex Abuse. A Royal Commission is the highest and most powerful form of inquiry that a government can set up. The Commission went on for almost 5 years and released its final report in August last year. It took evidences from thousands of victims and hundreds of perpetrators, both individuals and organisations. it came up with hundreds of recommendations. The impact of the Commission and its recommendations will be felt for decades. I recommed it to all who have an interest in these matters. 

https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/

[carlimac]

So I went out looking on Catholic forums to see what people were saying. I found it really informative. I learned things about the Catholic church that I didn't know before. Generally it seems that devout Catholics are disgusted with what has happened and want reform as much as anyone. I read a letter a theology professor wrote and the ensuing comments. There was a wide range of "solutions" presented by commentators. Everything from intense fasting and prayer to more practical solutions of rooting out all the gay priests. Some say that could be up to 50% of them. Anyway it was fascinating to see how another church deals with a crisis like this.

Here's the letter if anyone is interested. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/janet-smith-to-bishops-save-the-church-tell-everything

[carlimac]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

What we today call "child sexual abuse" is as old as humanity. Many, many previous cultures (and probably many modern cultures) did/do not even find it objectionable. The ancient Greeks codified pederasty, and would have been shocked (and probably amused) to find that anyone had a problem with it. In many cultures, girls entered into sexual service pretty much as soon as they were physically able to engage in the act without (much) damage.

Shocking? Hardly. This is the human animal. In this, we are pretty much like any other animal. Sex is just something we do, like breathing, eating, and pooping.

The good news that Christ brought is that there is a higher, much better way. It involves sacrificing our carnal nature, and in its place receiving a Godly nature with attendant benefits. This is why we send missionaries throughout the world. Because the world will not -- indeed, cannot -- sustain a moral implementation of sexual activity. It is contrary to worldly nature to place value in the sacred. "Irreverent" is a common worldly adjective, usually used as a positive trait. The irony is palpable, but such is the nature of worldly activity vis-à-vis what God offers. The natural man is an enemy to God, because he can never understand what God is working to accomplish.

tl;dr -- Never be surprised that some people are predators, sexual or otherwise. And never suppose that worldly laws and institutions can ever serve as anything more than a dirty Band-Aid on the problem. There is one and only one solution.

Really?? Even as advanced as we have become as humans, sex is as automatic as breathing?  I think these priests are a little more intelligent than that. Perhaps that's why so many of them hide what they're doing. They know it's wrong.   "Never be surprised that some people are predators."???  Seriously? Do you mean "never be surprised that there are predators out there"? NO I'm not surprised. People have made evil choices since Cain killed Abel. But I will more often than not, assume the best of humankind while being alert to those who might have dangerous tendencies and protecting myself and my children. I'd rather see the goodness in people than go around assuming and imagining that every other person is a predator. 

What is the one and only solution? 

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, carlimac said:

What is the one and only solution? 

Not sure if this is a hypothetical or not, but the answer is obvious.  The solution is to turn to Christ and follow Him as a disciple.  Part of that involves taking the sex drive and channeling it into covenantal marriage.  

Vort is on to something with his analogies to the animal world.  We have turkeys and chickens.  You know what?  Roosters are bullies and rapists.  They take the hen they want, whenever and as often as they want, doesn't matter if the hens try to run and get away, or don't seem very happy about things at all.  It doesn't matter if a "favorite" is so overused they end up injured and bleeding.  A rooster will willingly give his life to protect his hens against predators, even when the obvious outcome is an instant death to the rooster.  But he's no gentleman, and God willed it to be so by creating the rooster.  Humans have this thing called agency, where we can choose to be a rooster, or maybe follow the beckoning call of the Lord.  

Yes indeed, a thousand times yes, no matter how advanced humans become, the sex drive will be as automatic as breathing.  Again, God wills it to be so.  You control your passions, you don't pretend you've evolved out of them.

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, carlimac said:

So I went out looking on Catholic forums to see what people were saying. I found it really informative. I learned things about the Catholic church that I didn't know before. Generally it seems that devout Catholics are disgusted with what has happened and want reform as much as anyone. I read a letter a theology professor wrote and the ensuing comments. There was a wide range of "solutions" presented by commentators. Everything from intense fasting and prayer to more practical solutions of rooting out all the gay priests. Some say that could be up to 50% of them. Anyway it was fascinating to see how another church deals with a crisis like this.

Here's the letter if anyone is interested. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/janet-smith-to-bishops-save-the-church-tell-everything

I'm thinking you learned about the Catholic membership and not necessarily the Catholic church.  In the same manner that the issue with Joseph Bishop and the varied Mormon reactions to it informed you about the Mormon membership and not necessarily the Church. 

"more practical solutions of rooting out all the gay priests. Some say that could be up to 50% of them." is a non-Catholic viewpoint.  The Catholic Church ordinances include 2 ordinances that are exclusive of each other:  Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders.  You can either take Holy Matrimony OR Holy Orders.  Now, the Mormon Church has one path - Eternal Marriage.  Gays may abstain awaiting resolution after mortal existence.  The Catholic Church has 2 paths, gays are encouraged to take the vow of celibacy and commit to Holy Orders.  There are no ordinances after death in the Catholic faith. 

And here's another non-Catholic viewpoint from the article which is also another cause of the disagreements between the Catholic Church and the people at large - "We are sick over all the crimes that will go unpunished and uncompensated," the grand jury said.  Secular justice only thinks of mortal justice.  It has ZERO consideration for spiritual justice.  In the Catholic point of view, this statement is not seeking punishment for there is no greater punishment than roasting in hell for all eternity.  Rather, this statement is seeking vengeance, a non-Catholic sentiment.  A Catholic making the covenant for Holy Orders has a responsibility to God so great that breaking that covenant is a grave sin worthy of eternal flames.  The Catholic penitent only has until his mortal death to repent.  Catholics don't believe in post-death repentance.  Putting a priest in the hands of secular justice without first establishing a spiritual pathway to redemption is putting a priest in a place where vengeance is the objective and not the salvation of one's soul.  It is sentencing that priest to eternal damnation especially as prisons are notorious for the risk of mental health deterioration and death by vigilante justice.

So, the secular community calls it "hiding the crime".  The Catholic institution is saving a man's soul.  It is their ultimate objective to go through the Canon Law process as much as possible to see the priest through the entire process of repentance - which includes redress of grievances of the victims. 

In addition, it is vengeance so great to demand a man be given to the devil to consider the victim compensated - that vengeance also puts the victim's soul in peril.  It is the duty of the Church to also help the victim on the path to Christ.

Edited August 16, 2018 by anatess2

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The scale is shocking, but the rest isn't.  Thinking about the time period, I found this in a related CNN article: "DiNardo and Doherty noted that the grand jury's report spans 70 years, and many of the abuse accusations were made before 2002, when the bishops adopted new policies. The policies, known as the Dallas Charter, after the city in which they were adopted, have been revised in 2011 and 2018."

Truth: Humans used to not know crap about child sex abuse.  We didn't admit it to ourselves.  We didn't like to think about it.  We turned a blind eye when we saw it, because we didn't know what we saw and we didn't know any better.  We didn't have policies to cover it.  We didn't understand the seriousness.  We used to figure "just forgive and move on" was sufficient.  We used to believe that, because we were deficient (or willfully blind) in our understanding of the seriousness of the crime. 

Truth: This started to change in the '80's, much changed happened in the '90's and '00's, and now these days it's rare to find an adult that isn't aware of such things, or an institution that doesn't have some sort of policy about it.   The LDS church changed, the Catholic church changed, the BSOA changed, every organization changed.  

NT's opinion: It's a sad commentary on the human race that it took until the last 50 years of its multiple-millenia-long existence for any humans to start taking this crap seriously.  That said, whenever I see stuff like this, I make sure I hear about the timeframes of the alleged abuses before I get my "I'm so shocked!  This is so new and unexpected" face on.

 

 

 

What is this we stuff? How do you know how it was handled in the past. I think if you did this to a kid in the past you were found the next day hanging from a tree. That is how it was handled in the past. Don't lump all humans in with these garbage people.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is this we stuff? How do you know how it was handled in the past. I think if you did this to a kid in the past you were found the next day hanging from a tree. That is how it was handled in the past. Don't lump all humans in with these garbage people.

I know, right?

It's not "in the past" in the Philippines.  It's still very much in the present.  Usually when a kid is molested, the entire family goes to war with the perp's family.  Except when it's the priest - they don't wage war against the priest.  They realize waging war is actually against the teachings of the Church and the priest status of the perp kinda puts this fact in their faces.  So they leave the priest in the hands of Canon Law and try to work with the Church to overcome the vengeance in their hearts.  Well... until recently when all this anti-Catholic cries became mainstream worldwide... then there comes a greater number of Filipinos that defy their Catholic selves and feed the vengeance.

[Just_A_Guy]

39 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is this we stuff? How do you know how it was handled in the past. I think if you did this to a kid in the past you were found the next day hanging from a tree. That is how it was handled in the past. Don't lump all humans in with these garbage people.

1). Were they, though?  Rape against a (suitably connected) adult, perhaps; but how often were children believed?

2). How many innocents died under this regimen due to false accusations?

3). Even if concerns about 1) and 2) could be assuaged, the breakdown of the nuclear family means that victims no longer have a ready-made network of protectors/avengers.  Part of what’s happening today is that people are expecting churches to step in and fill a role that was traditionally filled by fathers, brothers and/or uncles.  And the churches are saying “look, before we saddle up and form a posse, we’ve got to consider the fact that we have responsibilities to the perp as well as the victim”; and that isn’t the message our #metoo society wants to hear.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

47 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

What is this we stuff? How do you know how it was handled in the past. I think if you did this to a kid in the past you were found the next day hanging from a tree. That is how it was handled in the past. Don't lump all humans in with these garbage people.

I know how it was handled in the past for two reasons.  First, because I've been paying attention for the last three decades, and I've watched things change.  Second, I've researched, read, and generally educated myself about things.  "Believe the children" - I remember it was part of an ad campaign in the '90's.   The church's ability to make a permanent annotation on someone's record to identify them as someone who shouldn't work with the youth - instituted in the '90's.  The policies and procedures the Catholics (and Mormons and others) put into place to protect the youth from predators - instituted in the '80's and '90's, and are currently getting re-vamped even as we speak.

I remember being in college, giving a presentation on how spousal rape was actually a thing.  I was not speaking to a convinced audience.  Also, here's some things not about child abuse, but stark examples of how our culture thought about each other.  Stuff like this used to be a common thing, hardly out of place in public discourse:

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I know how it was handled in the past for two reasons.  First, because I've been paying attention for the last three decades, and I've watched things change.  Second, I've researched, read, and generally educated myself about things.  I remember being in college, giving a presentation on how spousal rape was actually a thing.  I was not speaking to a convinced audience.  Also, stuff like this used to be a common thing, hardly out of place in public discourse:

 

So we are responsible for the actions of people in the past? All I am saying is there needs to be an accounting when this sort of thing happens, but the entire human race is not to blame when evil intending people do evil things. I hope that the victims can find justice in this life. We do know however that they will gain justice in the next.

[NeuroTypical]

3 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

So we are responsible for the actions of people in the past? All I am saying is there needs to be an accounting when this sort of thing happens, but the entire human race is not to blame when evil intending people do evil things. I hope that the victims can find justice in this life. We do know however that they will gain justice in the next.

I think you might be misreading me.  I'm saying the human race used to stink at handling this stuff in the past, and these days we're much, much better at handling things.  Of course we all agree there needs to be an accounting when this sort of thing happens.  It used to be much harder than it is today, and many folks would argue with you.  

Edited August 16, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think you might be misreading me.  I'm saying the human race used to stink at handling this stuff in the past, and these days we're much, much better at handling things.  Of course we all agree there needs to be an accounting when this sort of thing happens.  It used to be much harder than it is today, and many folks would argue with you.  

I understand you now. Glad we are on the same page. Maybe not the same sentence or paragraph, but at least on the same page.

[Traveler]

There is a question (that at least I am willing to openly ask) if sexual attractions are cognitively learned (acquired) behaviors or if we were born with them (created by G-d with whatever sexual attractions and behaviors).  I believe the evidence is that sexual attractions are cognitively learned.  It would seem that some would argue that the trend is towards some behaviors will not be tolerated - but I am not so sure.  Within my life time I am seeing more "tolerance" for ever expanding sexual behaviors.   That more variety is being labeled in society as not just okay if you a little different but into a full scale celebration of anything other than biological parenting based behaviors.

 

The Traveler

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There is a question (that at least I am willing to openly ask) if sexual attractions are cognitively learned (acquired) behaviors or if we were born with them (created by G-d with whatever sexual attractions and behaviors).  I believe the evidence is that sexual attractions are cognitively learned.  It would seem that some would argue that the trend is towards some behaviors will not be tolerated - but I am not so sure.  Within my life time I am seeing more "tolerance" for ever expanding sexual behaviors.   That more variety is being labeled in society as not just okay if you a little different but into a full scale celebration of anything other than biological parenting based behaviors.

 

The Traveler

How difficult would it be to build a space ark and get off this disgusting rock? Calling any ships passing by, drop by my house and pick us up so we can get out of here.

[Traveler]

7 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

How difficult would it be to build a space ark and get off this disgusting rock? Calling any ships passing by, drop by my house and pick us up so we can get out of here.

From all indications - no one is getting off this rock alive.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

49 minutes ago, Traveler said:

There is a question (that at least I am willing to openly ask) if sexual attractions are cognitively learned (acquired) behaviors or if we were born with them (created by G-d with whatever sexual attractions and behaviors).  I believe the evidence is that sexual attractions are cognitively learned.

This is a politically unpopular view today, but I agree with it. I think many sexual tendencies and attractions are learned. I expect even the most "naturally" heterosexual person will display marked homosexual tendencies if raised in a homosexual environment, and vice versa. There is some research to indicate that women are especially sexually "malleable", which makes sense in a number of ways. But science must always be made to serve larger social causes, as determined by those who appoint themselves the curators of social mores.

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is a politically unpopular view today, but I agree with it. I think many sexual tendencies and attractions are learned. I expect even the most "naturally" heterosexual person will display marked homosexual tendencies if raised in a homosexual environment, and vice versa. There is some research to indicate that women are especially sexually "malleable", which makes sense in a number of ways. But science must always be made to serve larger social causes, as determined by those who appoint themselves the curators of social mores.

As far as I am aware - all cognitive behaviors in advanced intelligence species are learned (acquired).  as per research by Skinner, Pavlov and even darker researchers like Joseph Gobbles.   Also as far as I know - the only cognitive behavior that anyone has ever suggested in our modern culture that may not be acquired, is sexual behaviors (but we still believe in sex education?) - and I ask myself - Why are so many so willing to make this the big exception - then condemn any objection - all without a single reference to any scientific study or empirical evidence.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is a question (that at least I am willing to openly ask) if sexual attractions are cognitively learned (acquired) behaviors or if we were born with them (created by G-d with whatever sexual attractions and behaviors).  I believe the evidence is that sexual attractions are cognitively learned.  It would seem that some would argue that the trend is towards some behaviors will not be tolerated - but I am not so sure.  Within my life time I am seeing more "tolerance" for ever expanding sexual behaviors.   That more variety is being labeled in society as not just okay if you a little different but into a full scale celebration of anything other than biological parenting based behaviors.

 

The Traveler

Sexual attraction developed in mortal existence for the survival of the species.  Homo Sapiens are the only species that can actually "choose its way" into extinction.  That's why you don't have the luxury of "choosing a gender" in places where you have to fight for your basic existence everyday.

Edited August 16, 2018 by anatess2