Testifying about what others are not doing

[Jersey Boy]

5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would appreciate if you could post a source with those prophecies.  Could be interesting to read.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord. (D&C112)

More later.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[omegaseamaster75]

19 hours ago, Fether said:

How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living? Particularly when it is somewhat controversial.

Today both my wife and I found ourselves bearing testimony on a gospel topic that I know most of the people in earshot were not doing or following, many of which are good friends of ours. My wife was very nervous about the whole thing and didn’t want people to feel like we were judging them, but also didn’t want to remain silent on the topic. For me, my mindset was “I’m only backing what prophets have said and am going to let people think what they may”.

We both bore testimony, and it was only met with a man who was also aware of those in the room that are not living the principle “we can’t judge others on their decisions”

Ive always been if the philosophy of “if they are offended and don’t want to be friends with me cause I sustain the prophets, that is on them. I’m still ganna be inviting them over for games and dinner though cause they are awesome people.”

What do you do in these situations? When you have friends in the room that you don’t want to offend but know something needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren’t living? 

Why do you care about what others are not doing? is it affecting you in some negative way?  

You bore testimony on a mystery topic of which you are certain that many are not doing or following (i'm not sure how you could know that) and you come here for what? an atta boy? Way to show em? An affirmation that it's ok to offend a room full of people because your right? 

I guess I don't get it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

with anyone not wearing shoes. 

You have those too?  I thought my kids were the only ones who preferred being sans chaussures.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

More later.

I hope so.  You haven't given anything yet.

[Lost Boy]

To me testimony meeting has always been about bearing testimony of our father in heaven, our savior and of the gospel.  It is not a chance to recount your last vacation.  It is not a chance to let everyone know how awesome of a parent you are by throwing accolades at your kids.  It is not a chance to be preachy.

To me it is a chance to testify of things that you have felt from the spirit.   Feelings you felt in the Temple.  promptings you had when you read the scriptures, etc.

It certainly shouldn't be used as a chance to show your superiority over your fellow church members.

[mirkwood]

I don't worry about whether or not people think I'm being judgmental.  That is their problem not mine.  

[Anddenex]

What is the purpose of sharing a testimony? The first principle of sharing our testimony is to glorify God. The second principle is to bear witness of truth. The third principle is that we are not to fear humankind, we are to fear God (pure love casteth out all fear).

If you are following these principles then it doesn't matter who in the congregation attending is not living those principles. We are to bear witness of truth, as we glorify God. If you are bearing witness of truth, you are glorifying God, then it really doesn't matter if people are not living the principle that is being testified of.

We are well taught in the Book of Mormon, the guilty take the truth to be hard. We aren't supposed to stop bearing witness of truth and speaking of truth because someone may not like what we share.

I am of the personal belief that if members today would have met Nephi, many would have called him self-righteous. He bore witness of truth, bodly, and endured physical pain because of it at times from those who were supposed to love and protect him.

This scripture I believe pertains to your question, "Use boldness, but not overbearance; and also see that ye bridle all your passions, that ye may be filled with love; see that ye refrain from idleness." (Alma 38: 12)

It is OK if we are "bold" when bearing witness of truth. If we are bearing witness of a truth and we have not bridled our passion that the love of God and others is within us, then we should refrain from sharing our testimony until we can (at least the principle we want to bear witness of).

A testimony isn't to prove someone wrong. It is to glorify God, his truths, and his plainness.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Anddenex

[zil]

59 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I don't worry about whether or not people think I'm being judgmental.  That is their problem not mine.  

How judgemental of you, thinking other people have problems and you don't!

 

 

(That was a joke, for those who have lost their sense of humor.)

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

How judgemental of you, thinking other people have problems and you don't!

 

 

(That was a joke, for those who have lost their sense of humor.)

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

[Fether]

6 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I don't worry about whether or not people think I'm being judgmental.  That is their problem not mine.  

Exactly my view haha

FOR EXAMPLE

I hangout with a bunch of friends in the ward. A few of them openly discuss in class room settings how they don’t think we need to accept callings that are extended to us.

months later I feel very strongly that I ought to bare testimony on this topic during a Sunday school class and I want to quote Elder Oak’s talk in 2002 “I’m go where you want me to go” on the responsibility we have to accept the callings that are extended to us. Those members that have spoken openly against accepting all callings are in the room. 

In such a moment, my wife and I chose to ignore the fears of offending them and still bear testimony on what apostles have said.

(note: though it was fast and testimony meeting, It was in class That we bore testimony in, not in sacrament. It being fast Sunday was just coincidence)

Edited October 16, 2018 by Fether

[Fether]

8 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Why do you care about what others are not doing? is it affecting you in some negative way?  

You bore testimony on a mystery topic of which you are certain that many are not doing or following (i'm not sure how you could know that) and you come here for what? an atta boy? Way to show em? An affirmation that it's ok to offend a room full of people because your right? 

I guess I don't get it.

I didn’t bare testimony BECAUSE these people were sinning. I was simply prompted to bare testimony on this topic and in the same thought I was reminded that my friends next to me often spoke out against it.

It was an incredibly awkward moment 

[Guest MormonGator]

Minding your own business does wonders. 

[Jersey Boy]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I hope so.  You haven't given anything yet.

There is the parable of the wheat and the tares, with the wicked tares of the Church ultimately bundled and burned for their iniquities; there is also the parable of the wise and unwise virgins, with the members of the Church who lack personal revelation being left out in the cold. And there is the following well-known prophesy from Heber C Kimball, approvingly quoted by both Ezra Taft Benson and Gordon B Hinkley in General Conference:

After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.

Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews.

The western boundary of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President Young tells us, when you return to that place, there will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.

Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to a testthat will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.

Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills, where we can close the doors of the canyons against mobs and persecutors, the wicked and the vile, who have always beset us with violence and robbery, but I want to say to you, my brethren, that the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God.

Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand? (Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor in the First Presidency, May 1868, in Deseret News, 23 May 1931; see also Conference Report, Oct. 1930, p. 58-59)

And as is well-known, those members who fall away and become apostates are usually not content to leave the Church and then leave it alone. Quite often, those who are overcome by the adversary of mens’s souls become bitter enemies of the Church. This will be especially true when the testing of souls takes place in an environment of satanic hostility and threats of extreme violence.

[Guest]

On 10/14/2018 at 7:31 PM, Jersey Boy said:

And are you aware of the fact that the prophecies pertaining to the last days clearly indicate the Church is going to be torn apart by internal conflict prior to the Second Coming?

11 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

There is the parable of the wheat and the tares, with the wicked tares of the Church ultimately bundled and burned for their iniquities; there is also the parable of the wise and unwise virgins, with the members of the Church who lack personal revelation being left out in the cold. And there is the following well-known prophesy from Heber C Kimball, approvingly quoted by both Ezra Taft Benson and Gordon B Hinkley in General Conference:

After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place...

And as is well-known, those members who fall away and become apostates are usually not content to leave the Church and then leave it alone. 

Do you understand the source of my assessment that you have not provided the prophecies you claimed?

The parts of the second post that I quoted, I perfectly understand and agree with.  But that does not address the claim you made in the first quote.

[mordorbund]

On 10/15/2018 at 10:36 AM, NeuroTypical said:

She has testified that our young men shouldn't pee on trees. 

Those trees know what they did....

[NeuroTypical]

17 hours ago, Fether said:

I was simply prompted to bare testimony on this topic and in the same thought I was reminded that my friends next to me often spoke out against it.

It was an incredibly awkward moment 

Well, I give veto power to spiritual promptings over anything I've said here.  If the spirit said go do it, you go do it.  Even if it's cripplingly awkward. 

It's just that someday, I hope to have all fifteen gazillion "just following a spiritual prompting" people all in one room, and I'd like God to sort them into "these are Mine" and "I never talked to these guys" groups.  I have my guesses about how big each group will be, but I have no way to know for sure. 

[Vort]

On 10/14/2018 at 1:21 PM, Fether said:

How do you testify of things that the person in front of you may not be living? Particularly when it is somewhat controversial.

Today both my wife and I found ourselves bearing testimony on a gospel topic that I know most of the people in earshot were not doing or following, many of which are good friends of ours. My wife was very nervous about the whole thing and didn’t want people to feel like we were judging them, but also didn’t want to remain silent on the topic. For me, my mindset was “I’m only backing what prophets have said and am going to let people think what they may”.

We both bore testimony, and it was only met with a man who was also aware of those in the room that are not living the principle “we can’t judge others on their decisions”

Ive always been if the philosophy of “if they are offended and don’t want to be friends with me cause I sustain the prophets, that is on them. I’m still ganna be inviting them over for games and dinner though cause they are awesome people.”

What do you do in these situations? When you have friends in the room that you don’t want to offend but know something needs to be said and a certain topic that they aren’t living? 

Funny that you should ask this. I am currently getting buried in criticism on another LDS-oriented list because, in a thread dedicated to discussing BYU athletes who were planning to forgo missionary service, I dared to state that the prophets had taught that every young man should prepare to serve a mission, with no exceptions granted for those who were good at sports. This general comment, not targeted at any individual athlete or other person but simply a statement of prophetic teachings, was met with over-the-top rage and personal excoriation of a magnitude I would not have believed possible. Openly and scathingly critical posts on the open board combined with private hate mail proved eye-opening to me.

Apparently, simply by restating prophetic teachings and insisting that they cannot lightly be dismissed, I am (a) filled with hatred, (b) intolerant, (c) bigoted, (d) holier than thou, and (e) a bad person (seriously). So there you go. I am sure there are more than just two or three on this list that would agree with such an assessment, but I flatter myself that this group is at least polite and enlightened enough not to voice such criticisms because I merely repeat the words of prophets and claim they apply to us, too.

So you may not care to hear my formula for success in this area.  But for what it's worth, I say: Go ahead and teach the truth as you understand it, openly and even boldly, but not in a spirit of condemnation. You cannot help how others take your words, so do your best and always stay with the truth.

[Vort]

On 10/15/2018 at 7:36 AM, NeuroTypical said:

She has testified that our young men shouldn't pee on trees.

This is true.

Please note that I am not a young man.

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, Fether said:

Exactly my view haha

FOR EXAMPLE

I hangout with a bunch of friends in the ward. A few of them openly discuss in class room settings how they don’t think we need to accept callings that are extended to us.

months later I feel very strongly that I ought to bare testimony on this topic during a Sunday school class and I want to quote Elder Oak’s talk in 2002 “I’m go where you want me to go” on the responsibility we have to accept the callings that are extended to us. Those members that have spoken openly against accepting all callings are in the room. 

In such a moment, my wife and I chose to ignore the fears of offending them and still bear testimony on what apostles have said.

(note: though it was fast and testimony meeting, It was in class That we bore testimony in, not in sacrament. It being fast Sunday was just coincidence)

When there is a possible disagreement - I try to approach thoughts from a different logical perspective - especially when I think others are not considering certain points of logic.  So rather that bare testimony about accepting all callings - I may say something like, "It has been my experience that when ever we accept a calling there are blessings - which means that whenever we turn down a calling we are in essence refusing blessings."  Then I may say something like, "you may not need blessings but for me most of my very most sincere prayers are pleas for much needed blessings."  For me, there has never been a sacrifice made for a calling that the windows of heaven did not open and return 10 fold blessings.  I believe it would be more foolish to turn down a unwanted calling than to turn down a million dollar inheritance.   Money will not last in eternity as much as blessings - and to be honest - I will not force others to accept a million dollar inheritance or a unexpected (unwanted) calling - but I would make the best of any opportunity that may come my way.

Someone may not accept their next calling but when they kneel in prayer with the tears of their family - they may remember that it may be the now most needed blessings that they refused.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

22 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Do you understand the source of my assessment that you have not provided the prophecies you claimed?

The parts of the second post that I quoted, I perfectly understand and agree with.  But that does not address the claim you made in the first quote.

Can you imagine that if prior to the Second Coming of the Lord the ranks of His Church are filled with many seemingly ‘active’ members who will blaspheme the name of the Lord in the midst of His house, and as a consequence will be judged and destroyed along with the nonmember wicked, that somehow the faithful and true members will be able to peacefully coexist with such people without there being many Laman and Lemuel vs Nephi type conflicts?

Can you imagine that the unrighteousness tares of the Church, who in unrighteousness engage in behaviors that attempt to destroy (choke off) the testimonies of the faithful, are somehow going to be able to coexist with the faithful members without there being many ugly and destructive encounters?

Can you imagine that when the great test about which Heber C Kimball warns is fully upon us that those who falter and begin to fall away are not going to cause much I’ll will and bitter contention within the Church?

Are you aware of the fact that Ezra Taft Benson taught us that the Book of Mormon is a prophetic handbook designed by divine inspiration to inform the saints of the latter-days about the things that will occur prior to the Second Coming for, as President Benson testified, history is going to repeat itself? Therefore, is it not important to understand that prior to the visitation of the resurrected Lord to the Nephite Church was torn apart by internal conflict, dissection and the secret abominations of Satan? And can you imagine that during the tribulations of the last days, when things will get so bad that men’s hearts will fail them, that the Church won’t experience similar interna strife and trials?

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Guest Scott]

The only thing I have to say is that Church members are really good at confessing sins, as long as those sins are those of the neighbors.  

Or maybe I'm doing the same thing just by posting this.  

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Scott

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Can you imagine that if prior to the Second Coming of the Lord the ranks of His Church are filled with many seemingly ‘active’ members who will blaspheme the name of the Lord in the midst of His house, and as a consequence will be judged and destroyed along with the nonmember wicked, that somehow the faithful and true members will be able to peacefully coexist with such people without there being many Laman and Lemuel vs Nephi type conflicts?

Can you imagine that the unrighteousness tares of the Church, who in unrighteousness engage in behaviors that attempt to destroy (choke off) the testimonies of the faithful, are somehow going to be able to coexist with the faithful members without there being many ugly and destructive encounters?

Can you imagine that when the great test about which Heber C Kimball warns is fully upon us that those who falter and begin to fall away are not going to cause much I’ll will and bitter contention within the Church?

Are you aware of the fact that Ezra Taft Benson taught us that the Book of Mormon is a prophetic handbook designed by divine inspiration to inform the saints of the latter-days about the things that will occur prior to the Second Coming for, as President Benson testified, history is going to repeat itself? Therefore, is it not important to understand that prior to the visitation of the resurrected Lord to the Nephite Church was torn apart by internal conflict, dissection and the secret abominations of Satan? And can you imagine that during the tribulations of the last days, when things will get so bad that men’s hearts will fail them, that the Church won’t experience similar interna strife and trials?

I can imagine quite a bit. But you still haven't provided the prophecies stating such.

Just to clarify.  I am not saying you're wrong.  It could very well be as you say.  In fact I don't see why not.  I also don't know if it is so.  But all the prophecies you've quoted do not actually state your original premise.  That was your private interpretation.  As such, it could be right, it could be wrong.  But if you're going to preach it, you've got to have a stronger argument than what you've provided so far.  If you've got a stronger argument, then I'm all ears.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Guest

[mordorbund]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I can imagine quite a bit.

There's an XKCD on that (called "Pain Rating"), but I won't link it here because it contains mild profanity.

[Vort]

49 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

There's an XKCD on that (called "Pain Rating"), but I won't link it here because it contains mild profanity.

Funny because it's true. Rating pain on a Likert scale is weird, non-intuitive, and cannot help being anything but wildly inaccurate. (Yet it seems to get the job done. Go figure.)

PS Bonus fact: It's a "Likert scale", not a "Lichert scale". I learn something new every day.