Vort

Marvel Comics does not understand exponential growth

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This kind of bothered me when I first saw the latest Marvel movie (Infinity Wars, I believe) -- but hey, it's a comic book movie, so what can you expect? But the scab gets picked every time someone references the dude with the groovy jaw killing off half the universe. I had assumed the people at Marvel were smarter (or better educated) than that.

I'm reminded of the old brainteaser we all heard in high school: A colony of bacteria doubles in size every minute. If we have a jar filled with some growth medium and a starter colony of bacteria, the bacteria will fill the jar at exactly midnight. When is the jar half full?

Answer: 11:59 pm.

How exactly is Thanos helping matters by murdering half the universe? In a generation or two, things are right back to where they were. Shall we just kill off half the universe every fifty or so years to keep our Malthusian nightmare from developing? What an idiot.

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4 minutes ago, Vort said:

This kind of bothered me when I first saw the latest Marvel movie (Infinity Wars, I believe) -- but hey, it's a comic book movie, so what can you expect? But the scab gets picked every time someone references the dude with the groovy jaw killing off half the universe. I had assumed the people at Marvel were smarter (or better educated) than that.

I'm reminded of the old brainteaser we all heard in high school: A colony of bacteria doubles in size every minute. If we have a jar filled with some growth medium and a starter colony of bacteria, the bacteria will fill the jar at exactly midnight. When is the jar half full?

Answer: 11:59 pm.

How exactly is Thanos helping matters by murdering half the universe? In a generation or two, things are right back to where they were. Shall we just kill off half the universe every fifty or so years to keep our Malthusian nightmare from developing? What an idiot.

Agreed, although I think they were trying to give him a better reason than the one he has in the comics. I believe he wants to kill everyone to prove his love to the anthropomorphic personification of death in said comics. That's a worse reason than the one in the movie, but you think they could have given him a more realistic goal (like universal domination or something) rather than just killing half the universe. Also, I mean he can alter time and reality, why not just double the amount of resources available? I liked the movie, but Thanos's motivation was odd.

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26 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Agreed, although I think they were trying to give him a better reason than the one he has in the comics. I believe he wants to kill everyone to prove his love to the anthropomorphic personification of death in said comics. That's a worse reason than the one in the movie, but you think they could have given him a more realistic goal (like universal domination or something) rather than just killing half the universe. Also, I mean he can alter time and reality, why not just double the amount of resources available? I liked the movie, but Thanos's motivation was odd.

Haven't seen the movie...no idea what the actual thing is, but I can reason out why one would reduce the population by half rather than double the resources.

They are actually two different things.

If you choose to double the resources you may have to alter a LOT of other items.  You may have to alter the laws of the universe itself.  That could require a LOT of thinking.

For example, if you double the mass of the Sun and then double the mass of Earth, how long is Earth going to remain in orbit.  Even if you just double the mass of Earth, it will probably affect the orbit of the Earth which in turn could cause drastic temperature changes to the point that everyone on the planet dies anyways.

It is implied from Vort's post that this is a universe wide thing (does that mean they've defined how big the universe is?) and that there may be many planets this occurred on.  If one is too double the resources one must decide which resources to double and then how this effects each planet and object which is doubled.  Just by adding that much mass you may cause the extinction of ALL life in the universe because of increased mass.  This will affect orbits and size.  A planet to close to an enlarged sun may be enveloped.  Another may burn up.  A planet that is increased with mass will have it's orbit affected and may have a similar situation occur.  There are many variables to consider in such an implementation.  There could be hundreds or millions of factors (especially if dealing with each planet, it could even be more than that) to consider and figure out.

If you reduce the population, you only deal with one factor.  It's not going to really affect the orbits or mass of spatial bodies.  You don't have to figure it all out in as much detail.

Not sure of the movie, but I think the simplicity of reducing the population would be far easier than doubling the resources.  Either way, you'll probably be a villain.

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Marvel fans do not understand the movies they just watched

I thought about putting this rant in the "movies you just saw" thread, but this will work well enough.

The most common review of the film is the several deaths and the emotional impact borne out from that. I admit that they would probably have been more shocking to me if I saw the movie in the first week, but I didn't and it wasn't. Additionally, I suppose I have a different relationship with the characters than the average fan, which you'll see below, so there's that.

The first death we see is Loki's. This one I think was handled well, with Thor showing mixed emotions over it because 1) it's his brother, but 2) it's his evil brother, and 3) his deaths have proven to be fake. The problem I have with this death is the audience reaction. For whatever reason, Loki has become an audience favorite despite being Asgard's parasite and his hostile takeover attempt of Earth. I wonder if those fans who mourn his death shed as many tears when Osama bin Laden was killed.

Gamorah Thanosdotter's death would have been more impactful for the story telling if more time had been spent in Thanos' backstory showing that he genuinely loved his children and wasn't merely training superior generals from birth. They would have had more time for this if the scavenger hunt was spread out across the different end credit scenes. Thanos was introduced several movies back, but they did very little to develop him. They just kept reminding us that he was coming. This built hype for the comic fans who knew Thanos' power and entourage, but for the rest of us the films were just retreading old ground (yes, we know Thanos is coming; okay, we'll accept he's behind all the villainy in the MCU). Instead, they could have used these vignettes to show his raw power and his enhanced abilities. Back to Gamorah's death, the previous films established how she and her sister felt about Thanos, but it was only in this film that they tried to establish how he felt about them. Without a proper fatherly care, viewers can be left wondering if there's anyone he could actually sacrifice to get the stone. Additionally, the aftermath with various sadface scenes would be more meaningful if we had more evidence of the level of sacrifice beyond "he got the stone, so I guess he loved her".

The Kansas ending jerks a tear or two until the final boss fight when Thanos gets away!! This is the same franchise that killed Agent Coulsen (oh wait, no he isn't dead), Nick Fury (faked his own death, so no), Loki (nope, he was just faking), Bucky Barnes (wait, did I say he died? no, he didn't), Loki (uh yeah, that's twice he pulled that stunt). Tony Stark is now on a mission to hunt down and kill the possessor of the Gauntlet. When he succeeds he will have the soul stone and the time stone. How dead do you think these people will stay? Just with the soul stone there's probably some movie magic that will bring Gamorah back (or not, the made up rules could go either way). The other dustlings are all fair game. If the intent was to clean the slate and move forward with a new group of heroes, Tony (or Thor) should have killed Thanos and everyone lived with the aftermath. 

So if you don't mind (and even if you do), I won't get all teary for the fallen heroes until after IW2 when I see that they're really dead. And by that point, it will probably be too late. As long as I'm here, there's obviously some Captain America backstory that's told in the comics or elsewhere, but it didn't make it to the movies so that transition was jarring. Since no one paid for my opinion, I'll freely offer that the second Avengers movie could have been Civil War, and the third Captain America movie could be a Nomad movie.

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13 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Marvel fans do not understand the movies they just watched

I thought about putting this rant in the "movies you just saw" thread, but this will work well enough.

[...]

Wow. That was...thorough. I agree. Or I would agree if I had put much thought into it. All your points make sense to me, but they're way beyond my own complaints.

I did not watch the first Iron Man movie until it had been out a couple of years. I have already mentioned how impressed I was by that movie (several times, actually). Other than the first Avengers movies, none of the Marvel movies since that have really had much impact on me. Maybe Civil War, kinda sorta not really. In Jerry Seinfeld's parlance: Meh.

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2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Marvel fans do not understand the movies they just watched

I thought about putting this rant in the "movies you just saw" thread, but this will work well enough.

The most common review of the film is the several deaths and the emotional impact borne out from that. I admit that they would probably have been more shocking to me if I saw the movie in the first week, but I didn't and it wasn't. Additionally, I suppose I have a different relationship with the characters than the average fan, which you'll see below, so there's that.

The first death we see is Loki's. This one I think was handled well, with Thor showing mixed emotions over it because 1) it's his brother, but 2) it's his evil brother, and 3) his deaths have proven to be fake. The problem I have with this death is the audience reaction. For whatever reason, Loki has become an audience favorite despite being Asgard's parasite and his hostile takeover attempt of Earth. I wonder if those fans who mourn his death shed as many tears when Osama bin Laden was killed.

Gamorah Thanosdotter's death would have been more impactful for the story telling if more time had been spent in Thanos' backstory showing that he genuinely loved his children and wasn't merely training superior generals from birth. They would have had more time for this if the scavenger hunt was spread out across the different end credit scenes. Thanos was introduced several movies back, but they did very little to develop him. They just kept reminding us that he was coming. This built hype for the comic fans who knew Thanos' power and entourage, but for the rest of us the films were just retreading old ground (yes, we know Thanos is coming; okay, we'll accept he's behind all the villainy in the MCU). Instead, they could have used these vignettes to show his raw power and his enhanced abilities. Back to Gamorah's death, the previous films established how she and her sister felt about Thanos, but it was only in this film that they tried to establish how he felt about them. Without a proper fatherly care, viewers can be left wondering if there's anyone he could actually sacrifice to get the stone. Additionally, the aftermath with various sadface scenes would be more meaningful if we had more evidence of the level of sacrifice beyond "he got the stone, so I guess he loved her".

The Kansas ending jerks a tear or two until the final boss fight when Thanos gets away!! This is the same franchise that killed Agent Coulsen (oh wait, no he isn't dead), Nick Fury (faked his own death, so no), Loki (nope, he was just faking), Bucky Barnes (wait, did I say he died? no, he didn't), Loki (uh yeah, that's twice he pulled that stunt). Tony Stark is now on a mission to hunt down and kill the possessor of the Gauntlet. When he succeeds he will have the soul stone and the time stone. How dead do you think these people will stay? Just with the soul stone there's probably some movie magic that will bring Gamorah back (or not, the made up rules could go either way). The other dustlings are all fair game. If the intent was to clean the slate and move forward with a new group of heroes, Tony (or Thor) should have killed Thanos and everyone lived with the aftermath. 

So if you don't mind (and even if you do), I won't get all teary for the fallen heroes until after IW2 when I see that they're really dead. And by that point, it will probably be too late. As long as I'm here, there's obviously some Captain America backstory that's told in the comics or elsewhere, but it didn't make it to the movies so that transition was jarring. Since no one paid for my opinion, I'll freely offer that the second Avengers movie could have been Civil War, and the third Captain America movie could be a Nomad movie.

Everyone's a critic.

;)

I expect they'll bring everyone back (via time stone, or some-such). We know, of course, they're bringing back Spider-man (sequel already in the works) and certainly Black Panther. But I expect everyone will come back. Then they'll actually kill off those actors that are leaving the franchise, a la Chris Evans. I expect these real deaths will be a trade-off for the others' lives -- which will be the case if the writers aren't clueless -- which they don't entirely seem to be.

I expect the lack of development for Thanos is related to the over-arching connected franchise that's being individually controlled by separate writers and directors. Even then, they seem to be doing a way better job of things than serial TV shows often do. (Lost, anyone?)

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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Loki fan here.  I hate Infinity War.  I almost walked out of it but I was with my family so I got stuck in the chair. 

Yeah.  Thanos' solutions to achieve his purpose in the movie is dumb especially with the fact that he has the gauntlet.  The comics made a lot more sense - offer the kills to gain favor with Mistress Death.

But, it's not quite like the bacteria because Thanos' killing half the universe is not just to thin down the population so they can eat with a full belly, it is also so he can control them.  So, I would think he'd have a population control thing going kinda like how China limited each family to 1 child to try to reduce their numbers.

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And don't forget Cobra Kai.

;)

 

Have you seen the new TV show? The deconstruction in that regard is so fascinating? I can't quite tell where to find the line between sentiment and honest-to-goodness creativity and meaning.

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Have you seen the new TV show? The deconstruction in that regard is so fascinating? I can't quite tell where to find the line between sentiment and honest-to-goodness creativity and meaning.

I haven't!  I was wanting to.  My boys love it.  I'm not much into TV because... I don't like waiting for the next episode.

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4 hours ago, Vort said:

This kind of bothered me when I first saw the latest Marvel movie (Infinity Wars, I believe) -- but hey, it's a comic book movie, so what can you expect? But the scab gets picked every time someone references the dude with the groovy jaw killing off half the universe. I had assumed the people at Marvel were smarter (or better educated) than that.

I'm reminded of the old brainteaser we all heard in high school: A colony of bacteria doubles in size every minute. If we have a jar filled with some growth medium and a starter colony of bacteria, the bacteria will fill the jar at exactly midnight. When is the jar half full?

Answer: 11:59 pm.

How exactly is Thanos helping matters by murdering half the universe? In a generation or two, things are right back to where they were. Shall we just kill off half the universe every fifty or so years to keep our Malthusian nightmare from developing? What an idiot.

The OG backstory was a lot cooler and made a lot more sense.

I absolutely love infinity war, but you are right, the economics of it all doesn’t make sense. 

The other argument is “if his gauntlet was so powerful, why didn’t he just snap his finger and make more resources?”

You have 3 chairs and 6 kids. Do you kill 3 kids or build three chairs? Thanks clearly didn’t see the other option. After all, he is referred to as the Mad Titan.

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18 minutes ago, Fether said:

The other argument is “if his gauntlet was so powerful, why didn’t he just snap his finger and make more resources?”

Because then that would be boring and nobody would want to watch a boring movie.

 

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

You have 3 chairs and 6 kids. Do you kill 3 kids or build three chairs? Thanks clearly didn’t see the other option. After all, he is referred to as the Mad Titan.

You kill 3 kids.  Because you're Thanos, not Captain America.

 

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

But, it's not quite like the bacteria because Thanos' killing half the universe is not just to thin down the population so they can eat with a full belly, it is also so he can control them.  So, I would think he'd have a population control thing going kinda like how China limited each family to 1 child to try to reduce their numbers.

Ah. So controlling 200 quadrillion beings is totally feasible, no probs. But controlling 400 quadrillion beings is simply beyond the pale; let's not be silly.

Uh-huh.

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Have you seen the new TV show? The deconstruction in that regard is so fascinating? I can't quite tell where to find the line between sentiment and honest-to-goodness creativity and meaning.

I watched the first several episodes, and I was impressed by the creativity and grittiness. But the constant harsh language was a major turnoff. A more subtle but ultimately bigger problem was the "nuance". The Karate Kid was beloved because it was so black and white. Cobra Kai goes out of its way to blur that line, which I admit is probably more true to life. But there has to be a point to the story, beyond a soap opera to draw people in, which is morally bankrupt consumerism. Johnny doesn't have any heart of gold, but he may be redeemable. But Daniel is portrayed to look like an empty suit, with his daughter borderline out of control and his wife openly enabling her behavior. Honestly, when Johnny is the most sympathetic character, I'm not likely to enjoy the series.

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I read a novel within in this year where a disease contrived in a lab and then released by a mad woman killed of 99.9% of the [future, Earth-colonized] universe. I recall thinking, now that's an impressive feat, get rid of just about everyone. And, in the end, the survivors are announcing pregnancies and such. Might take a few more generations than Thanos' 50% deal, but if you really want to make a lasting impact, you have to kill off everyone.

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23 minutes ago, Backroads said:

if you really want to make a lasting impact, you have to kill off everyone.

Not something you hear every day. Maybe I'll make this my new motto.

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6 minutes ago, Backroads said:

I've inspired someone. I've made a difference in the world.

Yeah, but it'll only be lasting if I kill off everyone.

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