LatterDSaint

Can women have a healthy relationship guy bestfriend and their boyfriend at the same time? Based on what happened yesterday, I would conclude NO

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@LatterDSaint I'm really glad things are working out for you!  😊

And yeah I tend to analyze things heavily, much to the annoyance of my wife.  It's part of the "Deluxe Special Edition SE Introverted Brain" package.  I hope that hasn't brought you any of the resentment you were concerned about.  

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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

@LatterDSaint I'm really glad things are working out for you!  😊

And yeah I tend to analyze things heavily, much to the annoyance of my wife.  It's part of the "Deluxe Special Edition SE Introverted Brain" package.  I hope that hasn't brought you any of the resentment you were concerned about.  

I gave my girlfriend a back massage yesterday after I read your post which but at the time I guess I forgot about it since she knocked out 4 hours of study and she deserved the massage, so as I see it, there isnt any resentment lingering from the ordeal getting rehashed again haha

2 hours ago, unixknight said:

And yeah I tend to analyze things heavily, much to the annoyance of my wife.

LOL I tend to want to get deeper and deeper into topics I discuss with my girlfriend which I think are important and there are times where she is very resistant to go further because she gets mentally worn out before me after a while of our prolonged back and forths hahahaha

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On 11/9/2018 at 6:44 AM, LatterDSaint said:

 It would be daunting for parents to expect to provide financial care for their children whilst they are in college and continually fear the possibility of a child coming into the mix 

It wouldn’t be daunting at all, because it wouldn’t happen.    Marriage ends all support.   Maybe a few years down the road might help buy a house, but once a couple marries, their financial support is on them.     

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Men and women can be "just friends" provided:

1. They never hang out together

or

2. Neither party is attracted to the other

Both scenarios are unlikely. If you are attracted to someone, the likelihood of you being friends, spending time together, and not having feelings for them is about as likely as me nailing jello to a tree.  And as such, I have only one female friend, my wife.

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22 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Men and women can be "just friends" provided:

1. They never hang out together

or

2. Neither party is attracted to the other

Both scenarios are unlikely. If you are attracted to someone, the likelihood of you being friends, spending time together, and not having feelings for them is about as likely as me nailing jello to a tree.  And as such, I have only one female friend, my wife.

It's mind-boggling to me that people actually believe you can't be friends with people of the opposite gender unless they're your spouse.  It's like your genitals is the master of your destiny.  I have a spouse.  So what if the pool boy is attractive.  I can admire the beauty of a pool boy without giving my genitals control of my brain and make me stupid!   Do you really think people so weak that you believe it's normal to even find it remotely appealing to throw away your marriage, your children, and your friendships over an "attraction"?

Guess what, you can't minister to people unless they're your friends and you spend time together.  You can't be an everyday missionary unless you make friends and spend time together.  Grow some backbone and stop giving your natural man power to deny you of opportunities to love your neighbor.  Bring a chaperone if you must.  With homosexuality a thing now, pretty soon you won't be friends with any gender. 

Edited by anatess2

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's mind-boggling to me that people actually believe you can't be friends with people of the opposite gender unless they're your spouse.  It's like your genitals is the master of your destiny.  I have a spouse.  So what if the pool boy is attractive.  I can admire the beauty of a pool boy without giving my genitals control of my brain and make me stupid!   Do you really think people so weak that you believe it's normal to even find it remotely appealing to throw away your marriage, your children, and your friendships over an "attraction"?

Guess what, you can't minister to people unless they're your friends and you spend time together.  You can't be an everyday missionary unless you make friends and spend time together.  Grow some backbone and stop giving your natural man power to deny you of opportunities to love your neighbor.  Bring a chaperone if you must.

 

Nothing wrong with being friendly towards everyone. What I was saying, and what most will agree on, is that men and women probably shouldn't hang out together, at least not one-on-one. And we are advised to minister alongside a companion. One of the main reasons why we do this, of course, is for our own protection. If we go into someone's house, and per chance someone made an accusation, you're on less than solid ground when you don't have someone else to corroborate your story. Whenever a Bishop is interviewing someone, he's also advised to have another priesthood holder in the building - same reason, they protect you. 

Now I don't have any issue with "just friends" hanging out one-on-one, provided neither one is engaged or married. This is a solid counsel. It protects you from developing any sort of emotional feelings towards someone who isn't your spouse. It's not say that we're not capable of controlling our thoughts and feelings, it's just better protection. Why do we have keys for all of the lockers in the temple? Not to say most endowed members would actually want to steal something, but it's much safer to remove the temptation completely. 

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4 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Nothing wrong with being friendly towards everyone. What I was saying, and what most will agree on, is that men and women probably shouldn't hang out together, at least not one-on-one. And we are advised to minister alongside a companion. One of the main reasons why we do this, of course, is for our own protection. If we go into someone's house, and per chance someone made an accusation, you're on less than solid ground when you don't have someone else to corroborate your story. Whenever a Bishop is interviewing someone, he's also advised to have another priesthood holder in the building - same reason, they protect you. 

Now I don't have any issue with "just friends" hanging out one-on-one, provided neither one is engaged or married. This is a solid counsel. It protects you from developing any sort of emotional feelings towards someone who isn't your spouse. It's not say that we're not capable of controlling our thoughts and feelings, it's just better protection. Why do we have keys for all of the lockers in the temple? Not to say most endowed members would actually want to steal something, but it's much safer to remove the temptation completely. 

Sure, don't hang out one-on-one.  But "you can only be friends with your wife"?  You believe you can "Love your Neighbor" but you can't be "Friends with your Neighbor"?  You have a weird definition of Friendship.  Keys to the lockers in the temple - so you won't take stuff out of the temple that's not yours.  Being Friends is not synonymous to being a Thief.  Nothing good comes out of being a Thief.  Friendship, on the other hand, is NECESSARY for the building of God's Kingdom.

Edited by anatess2

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sure, don't hang out one-on-one.  But "you can only be friends with your wife"?  You believe you can "Love your Neighbor" but you can't be "Friends with your Neighbor"?  You have a weird definition of Friendship.  Keys to the lockers in the temple - so you won't take stuff out of the temple.  Being Friends is not synonymous to being a Thief.

Like I said in my initial post, you can be friends with the opposite gender provided 1. You don't hang out together or 2. There's no attraction on either side.  

Of course you can be friends with everyone. But the example the OP provided was regarding his girlfriend, who valued the friendship of a guy who she finds attractive - and who she began to develop feelings for. I am talking about friendships where you're actually spending time together. I was explicit in my post.  No need to twist my words. 

And my temple comparison, I think relates very well. In both instances, you take out the temptation altogether. Married people don't spend one-on-one time with those of the opposite gender. Lockers in the temple have keys. Certainly we CAN control irrational thoughts and behaviors, but when you take out the temptation altogether, there's no room for sin to enter. 

 

Edited by ldsguy422

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37 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Men and women can be "just friends" provided:

1. They never hang out together

 

Wrong. One of my best friends in the world is a woman. We've gone out for coffee (She drinks it), met at bookstores, etc. 

It's amazingly easy if you are open with your signifiant other. No one cares. 

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. One of my best friends in the world is a woman. We've gone out for coffee (She drinks it), met at bookstores, etc. 

It's amazingly easy if you are open with your signifiant other. No one cares. 

Do you think she's attractive at all? 

And like I said, I didn't say it's impossible. I simply said it's solid counsel. Most people go down the wrong path when they develop an emotional tie to someone else. The odds of being emotionally tied to someone are astronomically low if you don't spend one-on-one time with them. 

Edited by ldsguy422

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6 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Do you think she's attractive at all? 

I don't see her that way, she's more like a sister than someone I view as "attractive" or "unattractive". Never really thought about it.

 

Edited by MormonGator

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13 minutes ago, ldsguy422 said:

Like I said in my initial post, you can be friends with the opposite gender provided 1. You don't hang out together or 2. There's no attraction on either side.  

Of course you can be friends with everyone. But the example the OP provided was regarding his girlfriend, who valued the friendship of a guy who she finds attractive - and who she began to develop feelings for. I am talking about friendships where you're actually spending time together. I was explicit in my post.  No need to twist my words. 

And my temple comparison, I think relates very well. In both instances, you take out the temptation altogether. Married people don't spend one-on-one time with those of the opposite gender. Lockers in the temple have keys. Certainly we CAN control irrational thoughts and behaviors, but when you take out the temptation altogether, there's no room for sin to enter. 

 

I'm not twisting your words.  You're the one that said you don't have any friends from the opposite gender except your wife.  "Taking out a temptation" by shackling your ability to care for people is quite a magic trick.

Friendship is not one-on-one time you know.  And cheaters don't need one-on-one time to cheat.

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Just yesterday I was listening to Dave Ramsey.  A woman called saying that she was concerned about how to handle finances because  she was considering divorce.  Her husband was spending time with his ex-girlfriend from 20 years ago. He assured her that it was fine.  Nothing was happening.  They weren't doing anything inappropriate.

How many people believed that?

Then she happened to mention that on some of these outings the time would get pretty late and he'd end up spending the night at her house.  BUT NOTHING WAS HAPPENING!!!

NOW how many people believed THAT?

Nothing to see here.  Move along.

Edited by Guest

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Just now, Carborendum said:

Just yesterday I was listening to Dave Ramsey.  A woman called saying that she was concerned about how to handle finances because her husband was spending time with his ex-girlfriend from 20 years ago.  He assured her that it was fine.  Nothing was happening.  They weren't doing anything inappropriate.

How many people believed that?

Then she happened to mention that on some of these outings the time would get pretty late and he'd end up spending the night at her house.  BUT NOTHING WAS HAPPENING!!!

NOW how many people believed THAT?

Nothing to see here.  Move along.

Huge difference between that and spending an hour at a cafe with someone who 1) you never dated 2) knows your wife/SO 3) has open communication with all four parties. LG knows this girl, and she's seen our FB communications. She stopped caring years ago. 

I place a very, very high value on friendship. I won't just throw one away because she happens to be a different gender than I am. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Huge difference between that and spending an hour at a cafe with someone who 1) you never dated 2) knows your wife/SO 3) has open communication with all four parties. LG knows this girl, and she's seen our FB communications. She stopped caring years ago. 

I place a very, very high value on friendship. I won't just throw one away because she happens to be a different gender than I am. 

Yup.

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't see her that way, she's more like a sister than someone I view as "attractive" or "unattractive". Never really thought about it.

 

 

If you don't find her attractive, then I don't think it should be much a problem, honestly. That is why I said you can be friends provided 1. You don't hang out one-on-one or 2. You're not attracted to each other. You follow under criteria 2

 

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not twisting your words.  You're the one that said you don't have any friends from the opposite gender except your wife.  "Taking out a temptation" by shackling your ability to care for people is quite a magic trick.

 Friendship is not one-on-one time you know.  And cheaters don't need one-on-one time to cheat.

Mercy. Calm down. My basic point, is that you can't be friends and hangout one-on-one if there is an attraction on either side. Of course you can still be friends with anyone and everyone. But one-on-one meetups with an attractive person of the opposite gender, especially when you're committed to someone else, is essentially a date. I'm pretty sure I could meet up with some female friends from college on a weekly basis and not break the law of chastity, or kiss, or hold hands, or even hug. But... I'm thinking I might start to develop some feelings. That is the pathway that should never start. 

Edited by ldsguy422

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1 hour ago, ldsguy422 said:

Men and women can be "just friends" provided:

1. They never hang out together

or

2. Neither party is attracted to the other

Both scenarios are unlikely. If you are attracted to someone, the likelihood of you being friends, spending time together, and not having feelings for them is about as likely as me nailing jello to a tree.  And as such, I have only one female friend, my wife.

I have good friends that are male. Nothing more than friendship will ever happen. I can promise you that. I will never have those kind of feelings towards them. They are dear friends. We worked together for 5 years. They were excited for when I met my husband.  When I got married and I had my son. 

My husband has female friends from high school. It's fun to get together with them because I end up talking to thwor husbands. 

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It's one of those things where it's so hard to come up with a blanket policy that covers 100% of cases.  Everybody's got their own breaking point in terms of what friends of the opposite sex can do together.  

I think, generally speaking, the stricter the rules, the safer you are.  If you never really make friends with anyone of the opposite sex you can avoid this kind of drama entirely.  That's playing it pretty safe, and it isn't necessarily the answer for everyone.

That said, I honestly think the vast majority of people are better off playing it safe.  To successfully pull off a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex to where you're able to hang out together one on one and such, there's a balancing act that has to happen which is as rare as hen's teeth.  You have to have two people who have close ties, who are not physically or romantically interested in one another, whose significant others are also secure and don't feel threatened, AND trusting that these circumstances will never change.  Can it be done in the long term?  @MormonGator tells us he's successfully pulled it off, and of course I believe him, but in my mind, he's the exception, not the rule.

And it isn't like this is a simple matter of enlightenment.  It's not like someday all mankind will be able to pull it off.  We're biologically driven to hook up with people of the opposite sex and that isn't gonna change.  That's the "natural man" that we are here to gain mastery over.  Spending alone time with someone without crossing any lines means having to completely keep that drive in check.  Why would someone put themselves in a position to tempt themselves?  I'm sorry but if a female friend looks good in snug-fitting jeans I'm gonna notice, and my lizard brain is gonna respond, and even though I wouldn't act on it or allow myself to spend a bunch of time thinking about it, the fact is that I'm gonna be aware of that and it makes me uncomfortable.

For me personally, the Law of Chastity is all about keeping the Natural Man out of the driver's seat and the mind focused on the things that it should be.  That includes avoiding adultery, of course, as well as entertainment media that's designed to inflame the Natural Man, because Heaven knows it's hard enough to keep it in check sometimes without having the added load of dealing with enticed by nudity and such.  To me it also means avoiding ANY situation that would trigger that lizard brain, and that means being very, very, VERY careful about how to handle friends of the opposite sex.  

A few centuries ago, before I was a software developer, I was an auto mechanic.  To learn how to do it I went to a tech school for 13 months.  At one point, I discovered that another one of the students happened to live very near me, and so we decided to carpool together.  Now, I was married at the time but wasn't yet a member of the Church so I wasn't too concerned about appearances or anything, and after assuring my wife that it would be perfectly fine, I started carpooling with this person.

Now, I'll admit that part of the reason I agreed to this car pool was that this young woman had two really cool Mustangs... one of them was a '65 and the other was a '93 (I think.)  I was hoping she'd let me drive one sometime.  But let me paint you a picture... This is a woman who was young, single, had  two muscle cars, was attractive as can be, and during the idle chatter on the way in to school one day told me that she felt it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to owe a guy sex if he buys her a meal.  She never wore a bra and loved male attention, which she got plenty of at that school.

One day, after class (which was in the evening) she invited me to stop at her apartment on the way home to have a beer and see where she lived.  I admit, I was a bit naive here, because she wasn't just looking to have a beer and chat.  She showed me her apartment alright, including her bedroom (which had a leopard print comforter on it).  She sat on that bed and invited me to sit with her.  At this point my intellect managed to reassert itself and I realized what was going on.  At this point I downed the last of my beer and excused myself to head home.

The carpooling ended shortly after that.  I think she felt insulted that I didn't respond to her efforts.  I did discover that the other people I had class with all were assuming I was sleeping with this woman.  That included another female classmate who I was friends with, who ended our friendship over it.  Apparently she wasn't willing to take my word for it that I wasn't doing anything wrong.  (Mind you, this same person had once come on to me as well, so I leave you to draw your own conclusions there.)  

So I did the right thing, but was still down by two friends and a reputation.  

This stuff is delicate and complex.  

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15 minutes ago, LadyGunnar said:

I have good friends that are male. Nothing more than friendship will ever happen. I can promise you that. I will never have those kind of feelings towards them. They are dear friends. We worked together for 5 years. They were excited for when I met my husband.  When I got married and I had my son. 

My husband has female friends from high school. It's fun to get together with them because I end up talking to thwor husbands. 

Do you find them attractive or vice-versa?  I'm curious.

Most of the time, women can find a man attractive and be friends with him.  But men have a hard time just being friends with a woman he finds attractive.  Most of the time.

I used to think it was impossible for a man to "just be friends" with an attractive female.  But I realized that I've had two such relationships.  One was when I was single and in college.  A classmate was a really pretty girl who I hung out with often.  We were friends.  But for some reason, I just never thought romantically about her.  I don't even know if she ever dated.

Another was a co-worker with whom I've lost contact recently.  She was a very attractive woman.  In fact, I remember the first time I saw her I really had difficulty taking my eyes off of her.  But we were just friendly co-workers.

These are exceptions.  With anyone else, I've always done what I can to politely stay away from them.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Do you find them attractive or vice-versa?  I'm curious.

Most of the time, women can find a man attractive and be friends with him.  But men have a hard time just being friends with a woman he finds attractive.  Most of the time.

I used to think it was impossible for a man to "just be friends" with an attractive female.  But I realized that I've had two such relationships.  One was when I was single and in college.  A classmate was a really pretty girl who I hung out with often.  We were friends.  But for some reason, I just never thought romantically about her.  I don't even know if she ever dated.

Another was a co-worker with whom I've lost contact recently.  She was a very attractive woman.  In fact, I remember the first time I saw her I really had difficulty taking my eyes off of her.  But we were just friendly co-workers.

These are exceptions.  With anyone else, I've always done what I can to politely stay away from them.

Maybe they would have been if I met them someone other than work first. It never crossed my mind to find them attractive.  I worked with them and that made them not my type.

  They became big brother types.  They told me that I was beautiful. One said in another lifetime, he would have chased me, but he knew he would never have a chance.  

My husband's friends are pretty but not his type. One did have a crush of sorts for him. I think it was that he was stable, strong in the church, return missionary,  great dad and cared for her. She oftened talked about how wonderful he was. She knew nothing would ever happen and she would never risk their realtionship like that. 

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17 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

Maybe they would have been if I met them someone other than work first. It never crossed my mind to find them attractive.  I worked with them and that made them not my type.

  They became big brother types.  They told me that I was beautiful. One said in another lifetime, he would have chased me, but he knew he would never have a chance.  

My husband's friends are pretty but not his type. One did have a crush of sorts for him. I think it was that he was stable, strong in the church, return missionary,  great dad and cared for her. She oftened talked about how wonderful he was. She knew nothing would ever happen and she would never risk their realtionship like that. 

"It never crossed my mind to find them attractive." Like I said, if you don't find them attractive you're hardly fitting the criteria that I mentioned.

Of course I still talk to attractive females on a semi-regular basis - work, church, double dates, moms of play dates for our kids, social gatherings, etc. But I don't ever go out of my way to have an extended conversation with an attractive female, go to lunch together, or anything else where it's a one-on-one situation. I would still consider many of these females my friends.  But, they're not friends I'm spending one-on-one time with, which is essentially a date. Our conversations are mostly on a superficial level, which certainly helps reduce any sort of emotional bond.

 It's not a commandment. I mentioned that it was simply solid counsel. If you don't allow yourself to be tempted, you can't allow sin to enter. Simple as that. 

Edited by ldsguy422

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3 hours ago, ldsguy422 said:

"It never crossed my mind to find them attractive." Like I said, if you don't find them attractive you're hardly fitting the criteria that I mentioned.

Of course I still talk to attractive females on a semi-regular basis - work, church, double dates, moms of play dates for our kids, social gatherings, etc. But I don't ever go out of my way to have an extended conversation with an attractive female, go to lunch together, or anything else where it's a one-on-one situation. I would still consider many of these females my friends.  But, they're not friends I'm spending one-on-one time with, which is essentially a date. Our conversations are mostly on a superficial level, which certainly helps reduce any sort of emotional bond.

 It's not a commandment. I mentioned that it was simply solid counsel. If you don't allow yourself to be tempted, you can't allow sin to enter. Simple as that. 

Because they were from work. In other situations, they may have appealed to me. I could block attraction at work because it doesn't belong there.  If I met them other places, who knows what I would have felt.

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It's funny I only got to the beginning of the second paragraph before I had read enough. 

Listen close. Dump her or endure pain.

From one bro to another there's a lot of fish in the sea.

Edited by faithful_father

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On a whim I traveled from Reddit to MormonHub just to get a more relative perspective for various topics I was reading about and it appears that this thread I created over half a year ago gained quite a bit of attention. 

I save my login and passwords for everything so I had no trouble accessing my account again. The replies here are really thought provoking and interesting so much appreciated. As a brief update I did end things with my ex girlfriend. Which was almost 7 months ago. I found the situation to be impossible to move past. I was never going to feel comfortable with any level of friendship she had with the other guy especially considering the circumstances of the proximity they would have. It was the toughest thing I have ever had to do and it took me a long while to do so after a lot of helpful advice from my own friends and family to finally end it. But I thank the Lord I did. I may have been fully committed but my ex unfortunately couldn't be. With everything said and done I am content with life and moving forward with the direction the Lord wants me to go. 

I still yearn almost to be in another relationship because of the intense happiness that is felt being able to open yourself up to another person in the way I did, but this longing is conditional on being in a relationship where our boundaries are compatible hence why I must take my time and be patient. I pray you are all well and are blessed till the end of days. 

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