Are some of us going to get left behind?

[JamesZA]

I did a brief check, so apologies if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it.

After musing on the changes we've seen recently, not just the 2-hour Sunday block, but the shift towards ministering vs home-/visiting-teaching, but also other things such as the lowering of the age for missionaries, introduction of Preach My Gospel, the shift from PH/RS "manuals" from teachings of the prophets towards recent general conference messages, council meetings, focus on special topics (Sabbath day, ministering, personal scripture study), various iterations of Come Follow Me youth manuals over the past few years, a new Gospel Principles book, new For the Strength of Youth pamphlets, etc. etc.

The trend that I'm seeing is that it's steering the members towards deeper conversion, taking more responsibility for keeping the Holy Ghost with them and making the Gospel part of their daily doings. This is great. I fully believe that each person should do his or her best to get Christ's image in his / her own countenance, and the new resources and programmes to guide us to do this are wonderful.

However.

We currently have many members who are just floating along. You know the ones I'm talking about. They are good people and attend (most of) their meetings, they don't swear, drink coffee or steal from their employers, they have read enough of the scriptures at some point in their lives to be able to answer questions in a Sunday School class. And yet, they are not particularly diligent in studying the scriptures or praying regularly, or perhaps they don't pay a full tithe or fulfil home-teaching assignments very well. (They might not even know it's called "ministering" now because they took a holiday on that conference weekend.) In my most honest moments, I can see this has actually been me for parts of my life, though not always.

Corridor-talk at a leadership training meeting this past weekend in my stake suggested that many leaders are of the opinion that these changes are filters, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I kind of see their point, but at the same time it worries me a bit.

I'm keen to hear some others' thoughts. What will happen to our members who aren't as diligent perhaps as they could be? Will they get left behind somehow? Will it be possible to maintain their current status quo, albeit with an hour extra to nap on Sunday afternoons? Will there be a divergence between "wheat" and "chaff"?

[Guest]

@JamesZA,

Yes.  This will happen.  But not all is lost.

Here are some facts:

1) Those who studied and did their homework before the change, will continue to do so after.  They may even do more.
2) Those who did not will have a choice to make.  Either they step up, or they will fall away.

You can look at it from a dozen different angles and have a dozen different reasons for why the changes were made.  And they'd all probably be right.  But the end will always be that those who are faithful will become more faithful.  Those who are not, will fall away.

This is not "tough talk" -- or at least, it's not meant to be.  It is an observation of what I believe to be the tendency of humanity.  And I have faith that the Lord will always provide a way for those truly seeking for help to get it.  And those unable to find it will be granted greater mercy at the judgment bar.

Quote

although Latter-day Saints should diligently help others receive the blessings of the gospel, salvation is an individual responsibility.

 -- Joseph Fielding Smith

The Church was instituted to be a helpmeet for those trying to learn about the gospel and succor those who need spiritual nourishment.  But the organization can only do so much.  Too many people complained about having to spend too much time at meetings and classes.  The Lord heard their cries.  He made it "easier" on us -- with a price.

Now the responsibility lies with each of us as individuals and families to pick up where the organization leaves off.  I believe that for the most part, those who will fall away were the ones who were complaining about the longer block in the first place.  And those that were "in the middle" or had other "real reasons" that made it difficult to go to church for that block will be supported in other ways.

The LORD WILL SAVE THOSE WHO CAN BE SAVED.  Those who are harmed, not by their own desires, but by lack of support in their weakness -- the LORD WILL PROVIDE FOR THEM.  The Lord sees the end from the beginning.  And he will not leave someone helpless.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Guest

[Grunt]

Some will be lost.  This may be a means to separate the wheat from the chaff, but what is the wheat?  I don't think it's a coincidence that we introduced ministering recently.  Sure, the less faithful are being tested, but don't for a second think that we aren't being challenged to step up our game and keep them in the fold.

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, JamesZA said:

Corridor-talk at a leadership training meeting this past weekend in my stake suggested that many leaders are of the opinion that these changes are filters, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I kind of see their point, but at the same time it worries me a bit.

I'm keen to hear some others' thoughts. What will happen to our members who aren't as diligent perhaps as they could be? Will they get left behind somehow? Will it be possible to maintain their current status quo, albeit with an hour extra to nap on Sunday afternoons? Will there be a divergence between "wheat" and "chaff"?

Who are going to be the Wheat and who are going to be the chaff though?

Just because they do not do the scripture study does not make them chaff, and just because they do their scripture study does not mean they are wheat.

Pride seems to be the dividing line between wheat and chaff in the Book of Mormon.  One particular group would go to church every Sunday and then proclaim how they were chosen above all others, but as we see, were the most wicked.  Meanwhile those who could not attend were those humble enough to listen to Alma.

In the New Testament the Pharisees and Saducees probably studied the scriptures and adhered to church law far more than any other.  However, due to their pride in doing so the Lord continually spoke ill of them and their fates while ministering to the poor and humble.  Many of the poor and humble didn't even know the scriptures all that well, but found faith enough to follow the Savior's words.

Division between Wheat and Chaff I think is going to be FAR more than simply two hour church and following the study program they put out.  I think it may have a tendency to lend a hand up or down to those who choose to follow it, but in and of themselves, most of the changes I see are not specifically to divide wheat and tares anymore than other changes have been in the past. 

[zil]

At a stake training last night, our Stake President presented a slightly different view, and I think we will all be benefited by adopting it and helping others to adopt it:

1) Home-Centered, Church-Supported

• Many members currently have this reversed - they think what they do at home supports the Church - they study for lessons, as instructed, they serve in callings to support the Church, they give talks for Church.  Church is the 3-hour block + activities + callings, and what they do outside that time is to prep for that time.
• The proper view is that their faith and religion are meant to be centered in their home.  They are to learn, study, and teach at home.  When they come to Church (the building or the events), whether as an "attendee" or as one called to perform specific functions, they do so to gain support for what they're doing at home, and to support others in what they are doing at home.

2) A pattern from 3 Nephi:

In 3 Nephi 17, which takes place after the Lord's initial appearance and teaching of the Nephites (day 1), he says this:

Quote

2 I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.

3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

...there's only so much they can take in at once, so he tells them to go home, ponder, pray and prepare. Then, what happens in chapter 18?   The Lord institutes the Sacrament.

The SP suggested this as a pattern for the new schedule and curriculum - We learn only so much at a time, then go home to ponder, pray, and prepare (to receive the Sacrament); then we come together again.  And this pattern repeats.  He also pointed out what happens in chapter 19 - that the people, all excited and converted, go seek others to bring "on the morrow".  This too should be part of the pattern (even if not an overnight change).

To me, this relates to one of the best things we can get from these changes, if we so choose: customization.  Instead of sitting through a lesson that may not relate to you at the moment, may not be what you need, or similar, you can determine your own focus for your study.

[Colirio]

The fact is, the prophet said in April of this year:

 

"I am optimistic about the future. It will be filled with opportunities for each of us to progress, contribute, and take the gospel to every corner of the earth. But I am also not naive about the days ahead. We live in a world that is complex and increasingly contentious. The constant availability of social media and a 24-hour news cycle bombard us with relentless messages. If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

April 2018 General Conference

 

 

To me, it sounds like the changes being made are for the very purpose of strengthening the saints to be able to survive spiritually in the coming days. 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

6 hours ago, JamesZA said:

I did a brief check, so apologies if I'm bringing up something that has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it.

After musing on the changes we've seen recently, not just the 2-hour Sunday block, but the shift towards ministering vs home-/visiting-teaching, but also other things such as the lowering of the age for missionaries, introduction of Preach My Gospel, the shift from PH/RS "manuals" from teachings of the prophets towards recent general conference messages, council meetings, focus on special topics (Sabbath day, ministering, personal scripture study), various iterations of Come Follow Me youth manuals over the past few years, a new Gospel Principles book, new For the Strength of Youth pamphlets, etc. etc.

The trend that I'm seeing is that it's steering the members towards deeper conversion, taking more responsibility for keeping the Holy Ghost with them and making the Gospel part of their daily doings. This is great. I fully believe that each person should do his or her best to get Christ's image in his / her own countenance, and the new resources and programmes to guide us to do this are wonderful.

However.

We currently have many members who are just floating along. You know the ones I'm talking about. They are good people and attend (most of) their meetings, they don't swear, drink coffee or steal from their employers, they have read enough of the scriptures at some point in their lives to be able to answer questions in a Sunday School class. And yet, they are not particularly diligent in studying the scriptures or praying regularly, or perhaps they don't pay a full tithe or fulfil home-teaching assignments very well. (They might not even know it's called "ministering" now because they took a holiday on that conference weekend.) In my most honest moments, I can see this has actually been me for parts of my life, though not always.

Corridor-talk at a leadership training meeting this past weekend in my stake suggested that many leaders are of the opinion that these changes are filters, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I kind of see their point, but at the same time it worries me a bit.

I'm keen to hear some others' thoughts. What will happen to our members who aren't as diligent perhaps as they could be? Will they get left behind somehow? Will it be possible to maintain their current status quo, albeit with an hour extra to nap on Sunday afternoons? Will there be a divergence between "wheat" and "chaff"?

As more members become truly converted the "floaters" as you call them will receive better ministrations from the converted and their faith will be strengthened. 

[Rob Osborn]

I see the 2 hour change as a step up in spiritual preparing. I don't see it as an answer to complaints that revolve around laziness. The two hour change places a greater emphasis on the Sacrament meeting service. Members will be more edified by this change.

[Traveler]

I am inclined to believe that what qualifies for being wheat or chaff is not close to what many envision.  I recall my first week as an ordained missionary after arriving in my mission.  I was introduced to a mission culture that I did not even know existed.  It was that it would seem that the success of a missionary was measured by two things: #1. Was their leadership calling - beginning with district leader and continuing as Zone leader and the highest measure of success was Assistant to the President.  #2. Was the number of baptisms. 

By all standards my first companion was the mission failure.  He was a simple person and a full blooded native American straight from the reservation.  He was the only member in his family and struggled with just about everything in the church and mission.  This was 50 years ago when we had 6 discussions that we memorized to close those we taught like a door to door home security salesman.  He could not memorize anything.  The only thing he had to keep him on his mission was a profound spiritual connection and love a Jesus Christ.  

It is hard to determine what experiences of my mission were the most important but having this profound individual as a companion became more the mission defining - he became a life changing experience for me.  Something happened on day one and we had incredible success and many baptisms.  Most missionaries that knew my companion thought our success was my fault - but I knew better.  I could teach the discussions - but he touched hearts.  I do not think that any of our baptisms ever went inactive and I cannot come close to saying that about any other time of my mission.  But because of our mission culture - even he felt that his service was mostly a failure and that our time together was his best.  I had a lot of good companions and it is hard to say which were "best" but I am sure my first companion is loved and respected by G-d.

It is possible that some are going to get left behind with the changes that are being made - but I am of the thought that the most likely to be left behind are not the same as other may think.  I wonder if those that will be left behind are those that believe that calling (especially certain callings) is what defines great Latter-day Saints.  President McKay said, "There is no success in the world that will compensate for failure in the home."  Many think he may have been referring to our ability to make money - I think he was really referring to our church callings and service.  I believe many define their success by the church, their church calling and the social interactions of attending church.  I do not what to take anything away from what the church does for us but I do want to make sure we understand that it is the horse the is pulling the cart and not the other way around.  The purpose of the church is to support the family - it is not the purpose of the family to support the church.

The changes taking place are to make sure the church does not fall behind the family and not to prevent families from falling behind the church.

 

The Traveler

 

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I would not be surprised if they stop having Firesides at church on Sunday, or any other day of the week.

[NeuroTypical]

8 hours ago, JamesZA said:

Corridor-talk at a leadership training meeting this past weekend in my stake suggested that many leaders are of the opinion that these changes are filters, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I kind of see their point, but at the same time it worries me a bit.

I'm reasonably certain that the Apostles and 1st Presidency don't think in terms of "We're doing plan A, because it'll really get rid of some of our useless dead weight."   Pretty sure they think in terms of "We're doing plan A, because it'll help us forward the work of the gospel, and increase individual discipleship."

This church isn't about grouping people into wheat and chaff.  It's about gathering as much wheat as possible, and everyone is potential wheat.

[Vort]

I do believe that the policy changes will act as a filter, but I don't think that was their intent. Any policy filters people into the obedient and the disobedient; today's recent changes are no different. The challenge now is the same as always: Will we be faithful and persevere in the face of adversity? The words of the verse are slightly altered, but the song remains the same.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm reasonably certain that the Apostles and 1st Presidency don't think in terms of "We're doing plan A, because it'll really get rid of some of our useless dead weight."   Pretty sure they think in terms of "We're doing plan A, because it'll help us forward the work of the gospel, and increase individual discipleship."

This church isn't about grouping people into wheat and chaff.  It's about gathering as much wheat as possible, and everyone is potential wheat.

Elder Ballard agrees with you.

https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/utah-north-multi-stake-conference-broadcast?lang=eng&_r=1

He points out the history of the past several years of Church Curriculum.  All this has been in the works for many years.  And the implementation of programs had already begun prior to Pres. Monson's death.  It also appears that the new youth program to replace scouting was already in the works prior to the BSA announcement.

I was impressed (by the Spirit) by the foresight of the Lord as he inspires his chosen leaders to provide guidance to us in these turbulent times.  We had thought that the new youth program was something they just figured they had to do in order to counter what the BSA did.  It is becoming apparent that the Lord saw this a mile away and already had Church HQ working on a counter long before the BSA made their move.

Does Satan see a few moves ahead of us?  Yes.  And we'd lose that chess game every time.  But we're not playing that game.  The Lord is.  And He sees many steps ahead of Satan.  This just makes me in awe of my lack of awareness and lack of foresight.  How on earth can individuals see this type of thing coming?  Yet another reason why the Lord works through an organization.  Individuals sustain the organization.  The organization supports the individual.  And all of it is led by the Lord.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Guest

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

"Brethren, how will we endure our own peaks and valleys? Will we so submit individually, or will we be “stiff and refractory”?

Joseph became fully consecrated and grew in a “spiritual crescendo.” (History of the Church, 6:317.) Will we do the same, brethren, by witnessing to our families, friends, and flocks—not only through our verbal testimonies but also by our developmental examples? We can do this by becoming ever more visibly the men of Christ!

Or will we be like those who were decent but who lacked the courage to declare openly for Jesus and who were afraid of losing their places in the synagogue? (John 12:42–43.) There are so many equivalent situations today, and some Church members are reluctant to risk losing their places! Each day we decide the degree of our discipleship. Each day we answer the question, “Who’s on the Lord’s side? Who?” - Neal A. Maxwell, "My Servant Joseph", April 1992 General Conference, Priesthood Session.

[Anddenex]

The words of Isaiah as quoted by Nephi, the Olive Allegory as given by Jacob should be sufficient to answer this question. Not withstanding all the servant(s) of the Lord of the vineyard performed, some fruit were still wild.

[askandanswer]

Whatever people do and whatever happens to them, it will be a result of their own decisions and the Plan of Salvation is so good that almost all of us will end up in a place where we are happy.