Universal Healthcare

[anatess2]

Just now, Barrett Maximus said:

I asked a question to help me better understand the pros and cons. I'm sorry I asked, I thought people on here would respond in a kinder tone than the rest of social media.

This is frustrating.  I hate to be accused of being unkind.  What is so unkind about what I said?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Barrett Maximus said:

I asked a question to help me better understand the pros and cons. I'm sorry I asked, I thought people on here would respond in a kinder tone than the rest of social media.

Was that referring to me?  I totally and honestly never intended anything I said in my post to you to be unkind.

I laid out three facts.  And I even made an implied request to help the discussion.  So, which part of that was unkind?

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is frustrating.  I hate to be accused of being unkind.  What is so unkind about what I said?

 

Just now, Carborendum said:

Was that referring to me?  I totally and honestly never intended anything I said in my post to you to be unkind.

I laid out three facts.  And I even made an implied request to help the discussion.  So, which part of that was unkind?

It seems like it's always the 2 of us.  Maybe it's our "Asian-ness" that translates to a certain tone.  I don't know.  I just say it like it is.  Flowery words trip me up.

[Guest]

Just now, anatess2 said:

It seems like it's always the 2 of us.  Maybe it's our "Asian-ness" that translates to a certain tone.  I don't know.  I just say it like it is.  Flowery words trip me up.

I tend to think it's my "Grindstone"-ness.

[Tyme]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

These arguments always come back to a bait and switch...  They flow like this... Pick a topic most people will agree with (Say like helping the Poor and Needy)... then once you know everyone agrees then you pick a method (in this case Universal Healthcare) as an answer to that topic.  Then when any one disagrees or points out problem with the method ignore the points made and instead attack them for be an heartless monster who does not care about the topic.

Such a bait and switch is fundamentally dishonest and I see no reason to engage such people

What???

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I tend to think it's my "Grindstone"-ness.

But I don't have that.  (or do I?  Hmmm.)

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Tyme said:

What???

I was speaking in general terms based on my historical experience with these discussions..  So if your 'What???' is prompted by the thinking I was accusing you... I was not.

If however your 'What???' was an indication of not understanding what I wrote then please tell me where you got lost and I will try to clear it up.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

But I don't have that.  (or do I?  Hmmm.)

Judging from your avatar (which, ahem, I provided) your problem is the evil eye that you give everyone.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Taxation of earnings from labor is on a par with forced labor.  Some persons find this claim obviously true:  taking the earnings of so many hours of labor is like taking hours from one person; and forcing the other person to work hours for another’s purpose.

Why should we take agency from others in forced taxation and make them pay for others health care costs?  I find it ironic that so many other people wish to be generous with other peoples' goods and wealth and give little or nothing of their own substance to others in need. 

We know the plan of salvation was to allow the freedom to choose while someone else wanted to take agency away and force us to do his will.  This is how I look at forced charity through taxation.

Edit:  There is something else I wish to add.  When you take goods or money from another through force and give it to another you rob that person of the blessing of giving and rob the receiver of gratitude of a gift that was freely given.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Still_Small_Voice
Adding a thought

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Judging from your avatar (which, ahem, I provided) your problem is the evil eye that you give everyone.

What?  I thought it was the "Help me, I'm lost!" eye.  You tricked me! 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

55 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Maybe it's our "Asian-ness" that translates to a certain tone. 

Racism!!

[The Folk Prophet]

Why do I feel like half this thread must have been deleted?

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Racism!!

Don't you know, only white people can be racist?

[Tyme]

Very interesting and thought provoking posts.

 

Do we all atleast agree that something needs to be done to rein in outrageous healthcare costs?

[Tyme]

1 hour ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

Taxation of earnings from labor is on a par with forced labor.  Some persons find this claim obviously true:  taking the earnings of so many hours of labor is like taking hours from one person; and forcing the other person to work hours for another’s purpose.

Why should we take agency from others in forced taxation and make them pay for others health care costs?  I find it ironic that so many other people wish to be generous with other peoples' goods and wealth and give little or nothing of their own substance to others in need. 

We know the plan of salvation was to allow the freedom to choose while someone else wanted to take agency away and force us to do his will.  This is how I look at forced charity through taxation.

Edit:  There is something else I wish to add.  When you take goods or money from another through force and give it to another you rob that person of the blessing of giving and rob the receiver of gratitude of a gift that was freely given.

Are you a libertarian?

[anatess2]

17 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Very interesting and thought provoking posts.

 

Do we all atleast agree that something needs to be done to rein in outrageous healthcare costs?

 

YES.  Healthcare needs to be DEREGULATED.  Regulations were instituted due to the Health Insurance Industry.  The way the health insurance industry caused healthcare to become unaffordable is a case study in how socialism caused the crisis in Venezuela.

This is relatively the same thing that made college tuition unaffordable.

Edited November 13, 2018 by anatess2

[LadyGunnar]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Sure, let's have the government control healthcare. After all, all veterans love the VA, right? 

My dad loves his oncologist from the va. She also figured out that his cancer was caused by agent orange.  But for most people it isn't the best.

[Sunday21]

Strongly pro but then I have universal health care. 

[Still_Small_Voice]

19 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Are you a libertarian?

My mind goes along the lines of supporting Constutional principles.  Presently I am not a Libertarian but they seem to lean towards my line of thinking.  I believe in the Bill of Rights as much as I believe in the Articles of Faith.  There is so much inspiration written in Bill of Rights and in the thirteenth Amendment of the Constitution.  I also find great wisdom in the division of powers in the Constitutional system.  The jury of one peers was meant to stand as a great hedge against tyranny and I hope it may continue to be a powerful influence in our society.

[person0]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Regulations were instituted due to the Health Insurance Industry.  The way the health insurance industry caused healthcare to become unaffordable. . .

As a health insurance professional, I can confirm this to be true from my knowledge and experience.  If there were no such thing as health insurance, most healthcare costs would be much lower.  What people don't understand about health insurance is that the discounted amount paid by the insurance company is, for all intents and purposes, a 'write-off' that the provider is willing to 'eat' in exchange for guaranteed payment and preferred provider status for a given insurance network.

One way to fix this would be for all health insurance to operate on a reimbursement basis and for all networks to be eliminated, this would enable everyone to attend the doctor of their choosing.  In order for this to work, health insurance would need to work on an indemnity basis with specific payments and specific maximums for each service.  Individuals could choose a plan that would reimburse what they wanted to have covered and they could negotiate with the doctors and hospitals for any overage on an individual basis.  This would lead to hospital pricing transparency, as most hospitals would not be interested or willing to negotiate with every customer.  Then, with transparency, hospitals would compete via pricing and/or amenities.  The health insurance would not have anything to do with the hospital at all, only with the customer, and the customer would be able to know up front exactly what the cost would be for each type of service, with the option (in most cases) to refuse any service they felt unnecessary.  Anyway, just my two cents.  This type of market focuses on all parties marketing to the customer.  Right now, hospitals and insurance companies make the deals and nobody knows how much their ER visit actually costs until they get the bill, even if they are self pay with no insurance - ridiculous.

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Tyme said:

Do we all atleast agree that something needs to be done to rein in outrageous healthcare costs?

See that would be the Topic of General Agreement.  Most people would agree with that...  The Method you chose (Universal Healthcare) is where the disagreement comes from.  For example I think Universal Healthcare will only make things more expensive (see Obama Care).  While many like to claim that the Healthcare system is proof that Capitalism and the Free Market are failures, its only true because they got strangled out.  (Compare the shopping you did to get the best value of your latest toy vs the shopping you did on your latest medical procedures)

The simple fact is most of your Local Healthcare is practically a Monopoly, that is not free market.  If you want to do 'something' to rein in outrageous healthcare costs...  You need to break the Monopoly (see Anatess deregulation comments)

Edited November 14, 2018 by estradling75

[Fether]

Coming from a complete place of ignorance, here is what goes through my mind.

1) I don’t see how universal health insurance/care would work

2) Why do many good people in places that have it love it?

3) Why are the biggest opponents of it people who don’t have it and have a political agenda?

4) I imagine that if we did do it, it would domino effect into foreseen and unforeseen  negative effects... but are there other economic positive effects that would result that arenjust too far down the way for us to see? 

I’m generally against it, but I also acknowledge my view as coming from heavily right leaning ideologues and a right leaning libertarian economics teacher.

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, person0 said:

Right now, hospitals and insurance companies make the deals and nobody knows how much their ER visit actually costs until they get the bill, even if they are self pay with no insurance - ridiculous.

I had Surgery and Hospitalization Only coverage prior to Obamacare.  I had this insurance while I was pregnant.  I negotiated EVERYTHING with the doctors and labs.  It was a frustratingly complicated thing because everyone you ask doesn't know who you need to talk to for rates.  I persevered and eventually got charged the super cheap insurance rates.  My OB knows I'm self-pay so he was more free with the way he handled my care because he didn't have to do any pre-approvals from the insurance.  The hospital was covered by insurance, so I didn't know how much the hospital charged my insurance until the insurance company sent me the paperwork.  

My son had to have stitches on his eyebrow.  It was considered surgery so covered by insurance.  But, the way my insurance coverage was - there's no "in network" anything.  The procedure is covered up to a certain amount.  So, I took my son to a plastic surgeon.  Line of stitches on his eyebrow.  No noticeable scar.  0 out of pocket expense for me because the surgeon was fine with the amount the insurance covered.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tyme said:

Are you a libertarian?

Most of the people on this board are either libertarian or lean strongly in that direction.

[Guest MormonGator]

50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Most of the people on this board are either libertarian or lean strongly in that direction.

Except for our resident socialist, @mirkwood