Grunt

Investigator Question

Recommended Posts

I'm a scientist: I move on the best information possible, using the highest quality investigative tools possible.  Continually investigating and pushing things further.  If I die and find out that my entire life-study was garbage... well, that's how the cookie crumbles.  I can do no better than I am.  If that is not good enough for some divine judge, it doesn't really matter-- I can do no better than I am.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My answer:  I do not believe that a just and loving God would condemn a person to eternal darkness who is diligently, honestly, and humbly following his understanding of what God desires in the service of God and his fellowmen.

That goes for myself and the person asking the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In addition to what @anatess2 said about intent and seeking to learn and do the will of God, I think I would, depending on who I'm talking to, add two more items:

1) How does the asker think it possible that baptism would condemn one to hell - what are the criteria which would cause a baptism to cause such a thing?  And then explore that.

2) What does the Bible say about it?  (As a starting point, leading to other scriptures, the testimony of the Spirit, etc.)

It's entirely possible, depending on who's asking, that I might just say, "Guess I'm screwed then." - in other words, decline to discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"To some degree, all religious belief, and atheism too- is a leap of faith. I'm honest enough to admit that. If it's wrong, I can tell God on judgement day that my goal was to find His church. He led me to Mormonism, or at least I think He did.  If I'm wrong, how come all the signs pointed me here?" 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, zil said:

 

1) How does the asker think it possible that baptism would condemn one to hell - what are the criteria which would cause a baptism to cause such a thing?  And then explore that.

 

 

Because if the Bible said there would be no other books, what if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false church?  Wouldn't being baptized in it anger God?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Because if the Bible said there would be no other books, what if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false church?  Wouldn't being baptized in it anger God?

Deuteronomy said that long before Revelation did, so if that's their basis, we'd best all become Jews.  Further, Revelation was written (with those words) long before it was ever compiled into the Bible and positioned as the Bible's final book, thus, any and every book other than Revelation must be wrong.

In other words, this argument is so ignorant I'm not sure I'd bother to respond to it.

Edited by zil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, zil said:

Deuteronomy said that long before Revelation did, so if that's their basis, we'd best all become Jews.  Further, Revelation was written (with those words) long before it was ever compiled into the Bible and positioned as the Bible's final book, thus, any and ever book other than Revelation must be wrong.

In other words, this argument is so ignorant I'm not sure I'd bother to respond to it.

That's basically what I said.  I have to respond to it.  It's not someone being argumentative, it's someone upset and sincerely looking for answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Grunt said:

That's basically what I said.  I have to respond to it.  It's not someone being argumentative, it's someone upset and sincerely looking for answers.

In that case, show the honest answers, and do it as gently as you know how.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Because if the Bible said there would be no other books, what if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false church?  Wouldn't being baptized in it anger God?

 

Another fact (in addition to what's already been said): the Book of Revelation orders man says to not add to the Book of Revelation.  It doesn't forbid God from speaking more.

Another aside (which I find isn't very helpful to these conversations, so I don't bring it up): Bible cannons vary wildly.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  It's tough.  I want to help, but I need to do so in a way that allows her to come to her own conclusion.

Biggest thing is just being a friend and open to talking about things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
2 hours ago, Grunt said:

I was asked "What if it's wrong?  What if by being baptized you are condemning yourself to hell?"   Curious how you would answer this.

Two things:

  • If it is wrong, what are the other options?
  • If it is wrong, how bad is it really?

Other options:

  • Some other Christian faith is right.  And I'm already doing what they say needs to be done.  So, I'm OK.  They may not think I am.  But I am.  There's nothing they're doing that I'm not.
  • Some non Christian faith is right.  I like a lot of them.  But they really aren't about any great reward. They're just a way of living.  And I think I live a pretty good life.
  • Atheism is right.  Then what the heck does it matter?

How bad is it?

  • It isn't.
  • It's actually pretty good.

So, I win on all fronts.  There really isn't much to it.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grunt said:

I was asked "What if it's wrong?  What if by being baptized you are condemning yourself to hell?"   Curious how you would answer this.

Another thought: the only way this can be true is if authority matters.  That is:

1) Am I being baptized into a church which believes in and follows Jesus Christ?  Is this demonstrable - that is, can I read scripture, determine what it teaches me to do, and observe that the church teaches the same things, and that its members do these things?

2) If #1 is true, then being baptized into that church can only lead to hell not only if that church doesn't have authority from God, but also if God is such that being baptized without his authority warrants condemnation to hell.

    a) Is God that way?

    b) Which church has God's authority?  (Does the church claim it?  Does it claim it uniquely?  (If not, why not, and how credible is their list of authorized churches?)  How credible is their claim?)

....of course, these are all logical arguments and I think few people are swayed by logic when it comes to religion.  You need to find a way to get the Spirit involved here.  Not saying the logic is useless or won't help, just saying I don't think most people will actually follow the logic, set aside their preconceived notions, study it out, and let the Spirit then confirm or deny their conclusions.  Hence, get the Spirit involved as much and as early as possible, regardless of whatever method is needed to do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps you could use Luke 9:50

50  And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
And then explain to your friend that your goodly works and way of life demonstrate that you are not against and if you are not against Him, you are therefor with Him, and if you are with Him, its unlikely that you will be cast down to Hell. This arguement might not persuade your friend to move towards the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but it should help them conclude that you are not going to go to hell for doing something that demonstrates that you are with Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:33 PM, Grunt said:

I was asked "What if it's wrong?  What if by being baptized you are condemning yourself to hell?"   Curious how you would answer this.

Then I go to Hell.  What else is there to say?  

This is why I hate "what if" questions.  

Edited by unixknight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/12/2018 at 6:33 PM, Grunt said:

I was asked "What if it's wrong?  What if by being baptized you are condemning yourself to hell?"   Curious how you would answer this.

I'd turn it around, because, obviously:

"What if you're wrong? What if by not being baptized you are condemning yourself to hell?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/12/2018 at 7:52 PM, Grunt said:

Because if the Bible said there would be no other books,

Revelations said that. Not "the Bible". When Revelations said that there was no collection of books called "The Bible".

Edited by The Folk Prophet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Vort said:

So are you Traveler's sock puppet, or is he yours?

He's a bit more mechanical than my leafy green self ;) (he being the AI robotics scientist and me being ecological data science).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the more colorful figures from church history was J. Golden Kimball. 

A mule driver by trade, Kimball had developed a habit for speaking bluntly, often including profanity. But his faith was so great that he was still appointed to several key positions in the church. 

While serving as a mission president, Kimball was invited to publicly debate a prominent local minister. 

The minister went first. He made a mantra out of providing faint praise, then saying "...but they're going to Hell!" after each and every thing. This went on for two hours

Then it was Kimball's turn. Kimball stood, said one single sentence, and sat back down. 

"I'd rather be Mormon and go to Hell than not be Mormon and not know where the [bleep] I'm going."

The local media declared Kimball the winner. 

You see, the minister had spent two hours saying nothing about what he believed. Kimball took a few seconds to say that he considered what he found within the church to be so precious he was willing to gamble eternity on it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flake shared the story of the father of presidential candidate Gov. Mitt Romney, former Michigan governor George Romney, who was asked by a heckler how many wives Brigham Young had. When George Romney said he didn”t know, the heckler wasn”t satisfied.

Romney answered he would ask Brigham Young the question upon dying and going to heaven.

“But what if Brigham Young didn”t make it to heaven?” the heckler said.

“Well, I guess you can ask him then,” Romney said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

“I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society.”  Joseph Smith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Ironhold said:

Then it was Kimball's turn. Kimball stood, said one single sentence, and sat back down. 

"I'd rather be Mormon and go to Hell than not be Mormon and not know where the [bleep] I'm going.". 

Is it possible to be faithful believing Christian (but not Mormon) and yet not know where
you are going?

Thank you,

Gale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now