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Stacey Harkey comes out

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On 12/24/2018 at 9:59 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

An effeminate man who dresses nice, enjoys musical theater, and takes pleasure in baking and home decoration is still heterosexual if he wants sex with women.

Nope; all the rest can happen just fine, but musical theater definitely make him gay.  Maybe confused too, but absolutely gay.

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

Am I to understand that a true convert has NO moral weakness, NO susceptibility to temptation, and NO capacity for sin? Because it seems to me that you're painting the portrait of a type of individual who, by your church's own teachings, has only existed once in all of human history, and you just celebrated his birthday yesterday.

Is that what I said? Thank you for the prototypical strawman argument.

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11 minutes ago, boxer said:

Is that what I said? Thank you for the prototypical strawman argument.

To further elaborate:  There are CLEAR standards which are outlined in the scriptures of what constitutes a decent individual.

Do not steal, Do not cheat, do not commit adultery, etc. etc. etc.

Christ laid out even further restrictions for which we should all strive for.   Do not be angry with your brother, do not judge unrighteously, do not look after strange flesh and lust after it.  Your problem @Godlessis that the world is so wicked today that no one wants to admit they are a wicked, fallen, sinful individual and that we are all just "good people" who "make mistakes".

Yet " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. "

There is a lot of wisdom in what Christ is saying.  Mortality is a constant struggle, a constant battle against the natural man.  No, I don't buy into your vapid, hedonistic argument that to call sin sin, to call wicked wickedness, to call evil evilness is to mean what you said.  Your argument is just a lie from Satan, a way to deceive others into thinking there is no need for change, no need for constant evaluation of your own life.  And to which I'm very grateful for one who atoned for my sins as I continually make the climb to refine myself.

But you do you . . .I'm surprised so many "saints" are taken in by the arguments of one who openly proclaims they are "godless".  But it is the last days . . .when good is called evil and evil called good.

Edited by boxer

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38 minutes ago, NightSG said:

 musical theater definitely make him gay

I was once called a charming name for a gay man because I like musical theatre. Oddly, I usually took women to musicals for dates. The irony was totally lost on this guy. 

The cool thing about those who throw slurs around (off topic, I know no one is doing that here) is that their anger will eventually turn on themselves and their loved ones (if they have any) in the end. Happens all the time. 

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1 hour ago, Godless said:

Am I to understand that a true convert has NO moral weakness, NO susceptibility to temptation, and NO capacity for sin? Because it seems to me that you're painting the portrait of a type of individual who, by your church's own teachings, has only existed once in all of human history, and you just celebrated his birthday yesterday.

I was specifically speaking about pornography (but it can apply to other similarly wicked behavior, which is given a pass in today's society).  Pornography is one of the greatest evils and scourges to sweep the earth.  It devalues that which is sacred, it makes men and women just flesh to be used rather than Sons and Daughters of God, it indulges the mind in fantasies which were never real and can never be real.  It teaches youth horrible thought patterns about relationships, sexual intimacy and about controlling themselves. Through pornography comes such incredible wickedness and evil.

No, it is a horrific sin, and no convert to Christ, no man who understands what it means to be a Saint would EVER indulge in it.  It's a great shame that so many men in the Church do so-and b/c so many do if the Church really hammered on it droves of men would not be going to the temple, sacrament etc. A man who indulges in porn. in the Church will not have the Priesthood . . .oh he might have it in name but he can't possibly have a true bead on being able to use His Priesthood b/c his mind will be so polluted with evilness and the promptings of wicked spirits.

Anyone who says it is an "addiction" has absolutely no clue as to what it really is, b/c it's not an "addiction", it is simply a manifestation of the desires of an untrained heart (for those who start when young) and a manifestation of a wicked evil heart for an adult who does not get rid of it.

It pollutes the mind, it draws in evil, wicked spirits around a person which infects their entire soul, it is a cancer and a rot that will lead to hell.

-----

High likelihood this Stacy guy looks at pornography in some fashion.

Edited by boxer

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36 minutes ago, boxer said:

To further elaborate:  There are CLEAR standards which are outlined in the scriptures of what constitutes a decent individual.

Do not steal, Do not cheat, do not commit adultery, etc. etc. etc.

Christ laid out even further restrictions for which we should all strive for.   Do not be angry with your brother, do not judge unrighteously, do not look after strange flesh and lust after it.  Your problem @Godlessis that the world is so wicked today that no one wants to admit they are a wicked, fallen, sinful individual and that we are all just "good people" who "make mistakes".

Yet " And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. "

There is a lot of wisdom in what Christ is saying.  Mortality is a constant struggle, a constant battle against the natural man.  No, I don't buy into your vapid, hedonistic argument that to call sin sin, to call wicked wickedness, to call evil evilness is to mean what you said.  Your argument is just a lie from Satan, a way to deceive others into thinking there is no need for change, no need for constant evaluation of your own life.  

I don't recall ever making the argument that people don't need to evaluate their character and make appropriate changes. That's literally the definition of self-improvement, or what you may call "putting off the natural man". My argument is simply that no individual, no matter how enlightened, reformed, or whatever you want to call it, is ever going to be immune from what you might call "sins of the flesh". Such individuals may be less susceptible to such temptations, but they are still humans with human shortcomings. Sure, many of the devout and faithful may go their whole lives without succumbing to the temptation of porn. But I'm not buying that slipping up in that very specific area negates the amount of work they've done to improve themselves morally and spiritually. It means they have more work to do, sure, but I wouldn't presume to question the relationship that such a person has with his/her diety.

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15 minutes ago, Godless said:

Sure, many of the devout and faithful may go their whole lives without succumbing to the temptation of porn. But I'm not buying that slipping up in that very specific area negates the amount of work they've done to improve themselves morally and spiritually. It means they have more work to do, sure, but I wouldn't presume to question the relationship that such a person has with his/her diety.

---------------

Sure, many of the devout and faithful may go their whole lives without succumbing to the temptation of theft. But I'm not buying that slipping up in that very specific area negates the amount of work they've done to improve themselves morally and spiritually. It means they have more work to do, sure, but I wouldn't presume to question the relationship that such a person has with his/her diety.

-------------

Sure, many of the devout and faithful may go their whole lives without succumbing to the temptation of adultery. But I'm not buying that slipping up in that very specific area negates the amount of work they've done to improve themselves morally and spiritually. It means they have more work to do, sure, but I wouldn't presume to question the relationship that such a person has with his/her diety.

-------------

Sure, many of the devout and faithful may go their whole lives without succumbing to the temptation of committing violence against someone. But I'm not buying that slipping up in that very specific area negates the amount of work they've done to improve themselves morally and spiritually. It means they have more work to do, sure, but I wouldn't presume to question the relationship that such a person has with his/her diety.

-------------

Fixed it for ya!

No one "slips up" when it comes to theft, when it comes to adultery or violence, but somehow magically people "slip up" with pornography-that's a load of bull.  It's a deliberate willful act.  Just because you have a frame of mind (and your frame of mind is not uncommon), that it's basically a minor indiscretion doesn't mean it actually is a minor indiscretion. 

Using the term "slip up", is just a way to lie to oneself and make it seem as if the person who committed the "slip up" was a robot with no free will, no choice, no ability to make different choices-it absolves the individual of personal responsibility and it a way for individuals to socially cover the sins of others.  It allows oneself to feel "compassionate", when it's really nothing of the sort. 

The truth is hard and a lot of people spend their whole lives running from the truth.  The truth when it comes to pornography, homosexuality, theft, adultery or any other vice/sin/wickedness isn't b/c of a "mistake" or a "slip-up", it's because the person who commits it-likes it

Which is why you see the line of attack most vigorously with homosexuals that they were "born that way"-it's the best way to convince others that what you really like is "beyond your control" and therefore no one has a right to "judge" and the only thing that should be done is to "love" (which really means don't you dare say one word about how you dislike my choices). Homosexuals have sold most of the Christian world one big lie and of course if one is "born that way" then to "deny" one the "right" to be "who God created me as" is the ultimate hate.

Edited by boxer

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22 hours ago, boxer said:

It's unfortunate that the Church bought into the 12 step program-but I guess it makes people feel good instead of acknowledging the obvious; we are wicked, sinful fallen creature who must put off the natural man to change.

That IS what the 12-step program is about.  I don't mean to be rude but you give the impression you don't know what you are talking about.

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23 minutes ago, Luke said:

That IS what the 12-step program is about.  I don't mean to be rude but you give the impression you don't know what you are talking about.

No you are clueless.

Step 1: "Admit that you, of yourself, are powerless to overcome your addictions and that your life has become unmanageable."

That is a total utter complete lie.  You are not powerless and it is not an addiction and if your life was really that unmanageable due to your actions-you'd stop immediately.  You are choosing a path which has negative consequences-however the reason you are choosing the path is because the desire, the momentary pleasure you get from choosing to do this, outweighs the negative consequences.  Until a person chooses to have a different vision for their life, until a person chooses to recognize that the behavior they are doing leads nowhere good they will continue to choose this path.

The first step is based on a complete lie.  Of course you have all the power to choose a different path-there is no such thing as an "addiction"-it's a myth, a facade. There is nothing wrong with your brain, there is such thing as the "disease" of addiction. It's all a choice.  And it's not about "willpower". It's about changing your will-changing what you desire most.

The Church makes this huge complicated program b/c it bought into the lie of the 12-step program that has no data to actually back up any "success" rate b/c it feels good rather than it being the truth.

Pornography is sin, why do people do it-b/c they enjoy it, b/c they desire the sin, it's pretty dang simple and it's pretty dang simple to get rid of. Change the desires of the heart and the behavior will change. You don't need a stupid 12-step program to help you-you just need a change of heart.  That change of heart is the exact same thing that happened to Alma-it's called conversion!

Don't mean to be rude, but before you spout off you should look into what you think you know b/c you don't have a clue.

Edited by boxer

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1 hour ago, boxer said:

Don't mean to be rude, but before you spout off you should look into what you think you know b/c you don't have a clue.

Yep.  @Luke is right.  You are clueless.  If addiction and mental health is just a matter of "choosing a path", you won't have drug addiction ravishing the Philippines.  What you need is to step down from pontificating out of that pulpit and live my life so you can understand what it means to be powerless.  

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10 hours ago, Luke said:

That IS what the 12-step program is about.  I don't mean to be rude but you give the impression you don't know what you are talking about.

Sadly, the internet  allows people who know nothing about a topic to spout off and act like they do. @Luke is exactly right. 
Thankfully, others who know what they are talking about can challenge them-and the opinions of the ignorant do not really mean much outside of their own little circle. 

Edited by MormonGator

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13 hours ago, boxer said:

But you do you . . .I'm surprised so many "saints" are taken in by the arguments of one who openly proclaims they are "godless".  But it is the last days . . .when good is called evil and evil called good.

Even though boxer is no longer with us, I have to say something here.  @Godless has been on this forum for years and years.  One of the nicest people you could come across.  While he may not totally believe any longer, he is still very respectful.  He served our country for years and has one adorable little family.  So while one person may be so judgmental, it is definitely not Godless one would say evil called good.  He's just a good guy and one I'm proud to call a friend.  

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4 hours ago, Luke said:

That IS what the 12-step program is about.  I don't mean to be rude but you give the impression you don't know what you are talking about.

Only an impression?

😁

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On 12/27/2018 at 10:26 AM, anatess2 said:

Yep.  @Luke is right.  You are clueless.  If addiction and mental health is just a matter of "choosing a path", you won't have drug addiction ravishing the Philippines.  What you need is to step down from pontificating out of that pulpit and live my life so you can understand what it means to be powerless.  

Did you really mean "live my life"?  Or was that a typo. If not, why are you powerless?

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On 12/23/2018 at 5:05 PM, lostinwater said:

 

  i can vouch for there being plenty of people who live as homosexuals, etc., in healthy ways.  They're generally a pretty quiet bunch though - definitely not the ones used as marketing material in the pamphlets that warn against it as being a social and moral pathology of infinite consequence.  And this is just my opinion, but i think many mainstream religions create cultures in which being homosexual, transgender, etc., in those healthy ways is *much* harder than it would be otherwise.  

 But if there are those here who think the only motivating factor of those who "join" the LGBT community is sex, then i'm not sure i can do much to help you.  Attraction and gender identification slices through every domain of life imaginable.  Sex is just one - and at least in my opinion, is used by most to try and numb the pain when the other more important ones grow sick, even as it is classified as being the only one.  

  

What do you mean by living as a homosexual in healthy ways? Do you mean by not having sex? by abstaining and learning to be happy without? Or is there some secret, quiet way of living  a homosexual lifestyle that is healthy? 

If it's not for sex, I can't imagine that a person is really homosexual. Perhaps they just identify more intensely with their own gender. Maybe they like things that are culturally assigned more frequently to the opposite gender. But it's the sex in "homosexual" that puts them truly in that category.   Unless it doesn't. I have a friend who's sister is married to another woman. but she insists she's not homosexual but came out of a very bad marriage to a man and got extremely close to a woman in the recovery period and ended up married to her. She is not actually attracted to women. (Yikes!! That is so messed up.) 

I think women are beautiful- more than men. I talk and associate more closely with women.  I'm not extremely feminine in my dress and behavior. I prefer jeans, t-shirts and button downs.  I have a hard time talking to men. 99% of my close friends are women. I identify with women.  I hate to cook.  But I am not homosexual in any way.  I have no desire to marry or be intimate with a woman. 

So what is it really that puts a person in the category of homosexual if sexual interest isn't the driving and defining force? What are "the other more important ones"?

Edited by carlimac

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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

 

So what is it really that makes someone homosexual- want to be married to or have a close relationship with the same gender if it's not sex? 

 

You can have Same-Sex Attraction and not violate the Law of Chastity.

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

You can have Same-Sex Attraction and not violate the Law of Chastity.

I realize that and many do keep the L of C. But if that law weren't in place, they probably would be having sex with a same gender person. What I'm saying is that if there isn't a "sexual desire" there but only an interest ( as in wanting a friendship or close relationship) in the same gender, I wouldn't really call it homosexuality. 

Edited by carlimac

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

You can have Same-Sex Attraction and not violate the Law of Chastity.

And anyone can repent of violations of the Law of Chastity. (Not saying it is easy just doable)

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3 hours ago, carlimac said:

What do you mean by living as a homosexual in healthy ways? Do you mean by not having sex? by abstaining and learning to be happy without? Or is there some secret, quiet way of living  a homosexual lifestyle that is healthy? 

If it's not for sex, I can't imagine that a person is really homosexual. Perhaps they just identify more intensely with their own gender. Maybe they like things that are culturally assigned more frequently to the opposite gender. But it's the sex in "homosexual" that puts them truly in that category.   Unless it doesn't. I have a friend who's sister is married to another woman. but she insists she's not homosexual but came out of a very bad marriage to a man and got extremely close to a woman in the recovery period and ended up married to her. She is not actually attracted to women. (Yikes!! That is so messed up.) 

I think women are beautiful- more than men. I talk and associate more closely with women.  I'm not extremely feminine in my dress and behavior. I prefer jeans, t-shirts and button downs.  I have a hard time talking to men. 99% of my close friends are women. I identify with women.  I hate to cook.  But I am not homosexual in any way.  I have no desire to marry or be intimate with a woman. 

So what is it really that puts a person in the category of homosexual if sexual interest isn't the driving and defining force? What are "the other more important ones"?

Thank-you.  

By healthy, i mean generally not suicidal, not addicted to drugs, not engaging in risky sexual behaviors, having huge numbers of partners, etc., - in my opinion, and from what i've seen, this is actually not uncommon.  

And i actually think the example of your friend's sister is a good one that illustrates that what the world would see as a homosexual living situation can actually be a lot more complex.  But i guess i'm just saying that a same sex marriage is very often as much about sex as a heterosexual marriage is - meaning nowhere remotely close to 100%.

Anyways, sorry if i didn't answer your question.  That was all i was looking at doing.  Not getting into another disagreement in which even agreeing to disagree is often lofty a goal.  

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15 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

By healthy, i mean generally not suicidal, not addicted to drugs, not engaging in risky sexual behaviors, having huge numbers of partners, etc., - in my opinion, and from what i've seen, this is actually not uncommon. 

That does sound healthier..  But there is a problem.  By that definition there are penalty of heterosexuals that are unhealthy as well..  Where is the outrage about that? 

We don't blame large generic chunks of the population (say like religious group) for the unhealthy heterosexuals, we don't demand large generic chunks of the population change their actions, attitudes or beliefs to 'protect' these unhealthy heterosexuals.   Nope  in these cases we say fix yourselves and maybe we can help.  Yet you are unwilling to do the same with homosexuals.

You can not complain of not being treated like everyone else while at the same time demanding special treatment.

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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

That does sound healthier..  But there is a problem.  By that definition there are penalty of heterosexuals that are unhealthy as well..  Where is the outrage about that? 

 We don't blame large generic chunks of the population (say like religious group) for the unhealthy heterosexuals, we don't demand large generic chunks of the population change their actions, attitudes or beliefs to 'protect' these unhealthy heterosexuals.   Nope  in these cases we say fix yourselves and maybe we can help.  Yet you are unwilling to do the same with homosexuals.

 You can not complain of not being treated like everyone else while at the same time demanding special treatment.

Thanks.

No demands here.  And in my quieter, calmer, clearer moments, i find myself fresh out of outrage, too.  Because other than creating more of itself in all the wrong places, i haven't seen it do much that could be called good.  But if there are people who are hurting and unhealthy, let me know how i can help, and i'll do my best.  No litmus test for sexual preference, either.  i'm just one rather insignificant person - and my ability to offer helpful words is pretty inconsistent - but i'll do what i can.

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19 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

That does sound healthier..  But there is a problem.  By that definition there are penalty of heterosexuals that are unhealthy as well..  Where is the outrage about that? 

We don't blame large generic chunks of the population (say like religious group) for the unhealthy heterosexuals, we don't demand large generic chunks of the population change their actions, attitudes or beliefs to 'protect' these unhealthy heterosexuals.   Nope  in these cases we say fix yourselves and maybe we can help.  Yet you are unwilling to do the same with homosexuals.

You can not complain of not being treated like everyone else while at the same time demanding special treatment.

It's healthier than promiscuity but it's still not healthy. No homosexual marriage is healthy unless it's sexless and they are just pals or companions. Even still, that doesn't sound like a healthy individual to me biologically speaking.

One of the reasons there may not be as much outrage about unhealthy hetero pairings is that it's not always obvious- as homosexual relationships are inherently.  But when there is known domestic violence, there is plenty of outrage. But unfortunately there is still not much the public can do about unhealthy pairings of any variety- when it involves adults anyway.  Child abuse? tons of outrage!! And definite action that can be taken.

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Just now, carlimac said:

It's healthier than promiscuity but it's still not healthy. No homosexual marriage is healthy unless it's sexless and they are just pals or companions. Even still, that doesn't sound like a healthy individual to me biologically speaking.

One of the reasons there may not be as much outrage about unhealthy hetero pairings is that it's not always obvious- as homosexual relationships are inherently.  But when there is known domestic violence, there is plenty of outrage. But unfortunately there is still not much the public can do about unhealthy pairings of any variety- when it involves adults anyway.  Child abuse? tons of outrage!! And definite action that can be taken.

I did not say it was sinless nor did I say it was healthy, I agreed it was healthier...  Being not suicidal is healthier then being suicidal, non drug abuse is healthier is healthier then drug abuse, safe sex is healthier then non safe sex, monogamy is healthier then promiscuity.   And the obvious-ness of it the same regardless of the sexual ordination of the person engaging such actions.

The problem is in the unequal reactions that are being demanded on the population based solely on the subjects sexual ordination.  A heterosexual suicides, or ODs on drugs and we acknowledge it was tragic, and think maybe someone close to them might have been able to do something.... maybe.  A homosexual suicides, or ODs on drugs and before their corpse cools they are being used as a poster child of how horribly oppressive religious /conservative thought is and how any one that holds such thoughts is a monster directly responsible for death and they need to be punished...    While at the same time saying that homosexuals just want to be treated the same as everyone else.

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