JohnsonJones

The Plan of Salvation (or progression from pre-existence to eternity)

Recommended Posts

I've seen a few discussions in various locations regarding the Plan of Salvation.  One of the more recent ideas someone floated to me was that there were multiple ideas of the Plan of Salvation given through the years and it's constantly changed.  I did not agree with many of these and frustratingly enough when I was about done with them I was directed to a website that posted that Prophets and apostles all disagreed with the Plan of Salvation and even posited that Bruce R. McKonkie and his son Joseph disagreed upon how the Plan of Salvation worked.  It listed half a dozen different (and what I see as bogus ideas in my research as an amateur Church Historian) 'plans of salvation' that were given through the years.

This comes from people younger than I who are pointing me to this idea (though not all of them, one was on this site a while ago I believe), and apparently it's changed since I've been a member of the Church (I've been a member for a little over 50 years now). 

I was polite, but what I wanted to say was...Not to my recollection it hasn't.  One of the main themes revolved around Reincarnation.  The church has never officially taught that reincarnation occurs as far as I've seen (and the closest was the idea that Celestial Beings have children in a mortal like state, but than after that they return to where they came from after several centuries...but that was a brief moment in time that was even discussed, much less taught).  It was included in a majority of their presentations of the "Plan of Salvation."  My thought on this stuff was...that's a bunch of rot.

So, this is partly a vent and partly just to lay out clearly what the Church taught about the Plan of Salvation.  The first post is basically what the Church taught from the time when I investigated, to what I believe it still teaches now. 

I will probably at a later date post this in my personal thread on my thoughts on the Church's Culture and such but with added stuff included of my own opinions and such.  However, this thread is to reiterate the basic Plan of Salvation.

So, onto the basics of the Plan of Salvation as was taught to me.  As far as I know, the basics have stayed the same since at least the late 19th century.  The doctrine of the various Kingdoms of afterlife have been around since the time of the Prophet Joseph.  I will use his words on them for a basis in D&C section 76, some that were added as Canon later with Abraham Chapter 3 and D&C section 138.  I will also use Section 131.  There are a few other things that will be included that were taught over the years to me, but are for the most part understood (such as the veil of forgetfulness).

Beginning at the start, as per section 76:24, the worlds were and are created by the Father of us.  Utilizing Abraham as well, we are his begotten sons and daughters and we were with him before this worlds creation. 

This is what we call the Pre-existence.  In the Pre-existence a war started.  There, two individual Sons of our Father had two different plans.  One was in accordance with the Father and had the decision to give us Free Agency to Choose good and evil.  If we chose to do evil this son would come down.  Through him we would have the atonement in which we could repent of our sins and return to our Father.  The other plan was in rebellion and it was that instead of choice, we would be forced to choose good.  This was also an idea of to supplant the Father and sit in his place, to steal his glory, and give all the glory to the leader of this plan.  This plan of rebellion was led by Satan. A third of the hosts of heaven followed him. Those of us who are on this Earth chose the former plan and followed Jesus and our Father.  In selecting to follow them we kept our First Estate.  Those who followed Satan will not have glory in the same Kingdom as those of us who did. 

This plan was to prove if we will do all the things whatsoever the Lord our God will command us (Abr 3:25).  Those of us who keep our second estate will have glory added upon us.

After this premortal life we are sent to Earth to live in mortality.  When we come here we pass through the veil of forgetfulness.  We forget our pre-existence in mortality.  Here we are given choices.  We are here to see if we will follow the Lord. 

After we die we go to the Spirit World  In the Spirit world we will go to either Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison.  Those of use who are of the just, who have been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality and thosewho have offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God and have suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.departed this life firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ will be filled with joy and gladness. (D&C 138 12-15) Those who are such will go to what we call Spirit Paradise.

There is another place also that the wicked go called Spirit Prison.

There are others that may be in the waiting for the gospel and we will be organized and sent to preach the gospel to them, teaching them the principles and ordinances (ordinances for the dead) where we who are among the living can act as proxy so that those who are dead but did not get their living ordinances, can receive them as if they were alive. 

After this we go to a judgment where our final destinations after this life is determined.  The following is almost straight from D&C 76.

The Lowest are the Sons of Perdition.  They denied the Holy Spirit after having received it and denied the only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (76:35).  The go to outer darkness and are the only ones the second death has any power over.

The rest are brought forth by the resurrection of the dead through the triumph and the glory of the Lam (76:39).

These are divided into 3 Kingdoms of Heaven, that of the Celestial Kingdom, that of the Terrestrial Kingdom and that of the Telestial Kingdom. 

Into the First are those who received the testimony of Jesus and were baptized, that kept the commandments and cleansed from all their sins and received the Holy spirit of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power, overcome by faith, sealed by the Holy spirit of Promise, are of the Church of the Firstborn, who are Priest and Kings and received of his fullness and glory, are priests of the Most High after the Order of Melchizedek.  Therefore they are gods, even the sons of God.  (76: 51-58).  These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever (76:62).  This is the Celestial glory and the Highest degree of glory.  This glory is that of the Sun.  We also know that those who did not receive the law in this life but who would have accepted the gospel if they had the opportunity will also be able to receive this Glory.  (D&C 137:7)  This glory is unending.  Those shall dwell there in the presences of God and his Christ forever and ever (D&C 76:62).  There is no end of this if we believe in it being forever and ever.

This Glory is also divided into 3 Kingdoms, into which to enter the highest a man must enter into the order of the Priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage] (D&C 131: 1-2)

The next degree of Glory is that of the Terrestrial world.  This glory is that of the moon differs from the sun.  These are they who died without law.  They are who the spirits of men kept in prison who the son visited and preached the gospel to that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.  These are they who received not the testimony of Jesus in the Flesh but afterwards received it.  These are honorable people of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men.  They are those who receive of his glory but not of his fullness.   These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus.  They shall be visited by the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father.  (D&C 76:72-79)

The third degree of Glory is that of the Telestial.  These are they who did not receive the gospel of Christ , neither the testimony of Jesus.  These are they who deny not the Holy Ghost.  These are they who initially are thrust down to hell and are not redeemed until the Lord finishes his work.  They do not receive the Son nor the Father in their Kingdom of Glory but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the Terrestrial.  They shall have administering angels who are appointed to minister for them. (76: 82-88)  There are as many different glories in the Telestial Kingdom, or divisions in the Telestial Kingdoms as stars, for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world (76:98).

Those in the telestial will be as innumerable as the stars or the sand upon the seashore.  They will be servants of the Most High: but where God and Christ dwell they cannot enter, worlds without end. (D&C 76:109, 112)

This then is the general idea of the Plan of Salvation that I learned and has been the same since I've been a member...at least from what I've been taught (unless it's changed without me knowing it).  Much of this (Especially that about the three Kingdoms) was taught in the Doctrine and Covenants and has stayed the same in writing since it was written down (as far as I know).  Saying that this has changed...

I don't think so.  Anyways, that's the Plan of Salvation in it's basic idea with Scriptures as the background for reference.

Edited by JohnsonJones
grammar/spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is what we call the Pre-existence.  In the Pre-existence a war started.  There, two individual Sons of our Father had two different plans.  One was in accordance with the Father and had the decision to give us Free Agency to Choose good and evil.  If we chose to do evil this son would come down.  Through him we would have the atonement in which we could repent of our sins and return to our Father.  The other plan was in rebellion and it was that instead of choice, we would be forced to choose good.  This was also an idea of to supplant the Father and sit in his place, to steal his glory, and give all the glory to the leader of this plan.  This plan of rebellion was led by Satan. A third of the hosts of heaven followed him. Those of us who are on this Earth chose the former plan and followed Jesus and our Father.  In selecting to follow them we kept our First Estate.  Those who followed Satan will not have glory in the same Kingdom as those of us who did.

I do not know what you were taught, and I cannot say what others may have taught through the decades. I was taught something similar growing up. But the above is not according to scripture, as I learned when I began seriously reading and studying scripture at about the age of 19.

There was only ever one plan, not two. That single plan was the Father's plan, originating with him. According to the Father, this plan would save all who would receive it and exalt all who would abide the law. The plan required a Redeemer, for which Jesus volunteered himself (doubtless was called of the Father to do so). In speaking up, Jesus made it clear that it was the Father's plan, done by the power of the Father, and that the glory was to the Father whose plan it was.

At least one other also volunteered himself for being the Redeemer. This prideful volunteer, a liar from the beginning, amended the Father's plan by making a spurious claim: He would redeem not just some, but all, and therefore the glory and honor would accrue to him, and not to the Father.

The Father rejected the impudent offer of the so-called son of the morning and confirmed Jehovah as our Redeemer. The liar whose offer was rejected rebelled against God, along with "the third part" of the Father's children who hearkened to his lies. This is the genesis of the war in heaven, the premortal result of which was that the third part was cast out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JohnsonJones, when I was growing up, I was taught there were two plans, as you described, however, more recently, I learned that there was only one plan, and it was Heavenly Father's plan, the way Vort described it.  

I went to LDS.org to find a reference for you...but that search engine...so then I tried google (which in the past has sometimes helped me find things on lds.org).  I discovered that this is a confusing topic!  This links shows (if nothing else) that you are not alone in thinking there were two plans: Christ's and Satan's
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=42312

However, it was Heavenly Father's plan, then Lucifer wanted to tweak the plan...
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

As far as I know, nothing about the teaching of the Plan of Salvation has changed, the trouble is, being a lay ministry where we teach one another sometimes our own misumderstandings are taught as doctrine.  I think that's what happened with the two plans idea.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

JohnsonJones, when I was growing up, I was taught there were two plans, as you described, however, more recently, I learned that there was only one plan, and it was Heavenly Father's plan, the way Vort described it.  

I went to LDS.org to find a reference for you...but that search engine...so then I tried google (which in the past has sometimes helped me find things on lds.org).  I discovered that this is a confusing topic!  This links shows (if nothing else) that you are not alone in thinking there were two plans: Christ's and Satan's
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=42312

However, it was Heavenly Father's plan, then Lucifer wanted to tweak the plan...
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

As far as I know, nothing about the teaching of the Plan of Salvation has changed, the trouble is, being a lay ministry where we teach one another sometimes our own misumderstandings are taught as doctrine.  I think that's what happened with the two plans idea.  

There as only ever one Plan.  Only ever one way.  Lucifer/Satan offers up "alternatives" which aren't the way of Salvation.  Yes, a person can technically follow any of those at any point, but only one is the Plan of Salvation and leads to pure happiness.  

 

@JohnsonJones, your post was very thoughtful and I'll have to give it a well thought response later (after the kids been ran around). 

Edited by Jane_Doe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, there was one plan for the plan of salvation originally and only one plan that was used. 

The other plan was not and is not the plan of salvation, but was something made by Satan (or alternative if you want) in rebellion to the Plan of our Father.

Saying there were two plans is a way to simplify it I suppose, in that there were two plans (but only one Plan of Salvation) or ideologies that we needed to choose between (though in a way it was between two groups or Leaders, that of the Lord and that of Satan's).  This meant that each of us had to make a choice of who we would follow.  We could follow Christ and the Father or we could follow Satan in rebellion.  A third of the Host of Heaven followed Satan which implies that 2/3 of us followed the Lord and chose the Plan of Salvation.

I was trying to keep it simple and yet complete.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Satan had a plan.. which he claimed could save everyone... However there is no proof that his plan could/would do what he claimed it would to.  This much like the grand promises we hear from many politicians..  It sounds wonderful but when you try to get beyond the sound bite level you find nothing there or that it can't do it.

So if all you need for a plan is a statement of intent/desire... then yes there were two plans.  However anyone that looked deeper and asked how many "Workable plans were there" well the answer is just one.  The Fathers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Satan had a plan.. which he claimed could save everyone... However there is no proof that his plan could/would do what he claimed it would to.  This much like the grand promises we hear from many politicians..  It sounds wonderful but when you try to get beyond the sound bite level you find nothing there or that it can't do it.

So if all you need for a plan is a statement of intent/desire... then yes there were two plans.  However anyone that looked deeper and asked how many "Workable plans were there" well the answer is just one.  The Fathers.

(to be clear, the following is not doctrine specifically, but what my own opinions from what I've read and heard.  I don't have actual hard sources on the internet for the following not from what I can recall, the scriptures themselves though some of it could be implied depending on how you interpret some of them).

In commenting on it, I think one problem that was pointed out (or has been in commentary in our day) was that his plan actually would NOT DO what he claimed it would.

One of the basic foundations is that we need to have our free agency.  To keep our first Estate we needed the freedom to choose and to choose to follow the Lord.  To keep our second estate it is similar. 

In the adversary's plan there was no free agency.  His plan would have made it so at the very least we could never have become like our Father (knowing good and evil and having the choice or freedom to choose to be good or to be evil).  In addition, as he would be the one be given the power to force us to do anything he said, he would be usurping power from our Father and setting himself above everything (as he would be the only one to have the ability to make choices).  In opinions (so, as far as I know, what I've written in this post and what follows are not doctrine, though if any have links that state as so it could be interesting) some have stated that this was basically a lie told to us so that he would have the ability to take all the glory and power from everyone and everything else to himself and basically control everything.  In this, we might not be able to even have a Telestial glory, for even if we live in a great and spacious building, we would have no emotion nor ability to enjoy or utilize it ourselves.

It sounds great until one realizes that without the ability to know what our choices are (or even the choice to be happy or sad at something), it means that we may not even be able to realize what a reward or punishment is or feel any joy or despair about it.  It was a plan based in deception and a lie to begin with.

However, we had a choice.  We (or I assume, those of us in this life on this earth) chose to follow the Lord instead of the Adversary in the pre-existence.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't think so.  Anyways, that's the Plan of Salvation in it's basic idea with Scriptures as the background for reference.

I'd say the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The progressive stages and estates along the way are necessary passages to that; any lesser kingdom of glory in the resurrection is a deviation from the actual Plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2020 at 6:40 PM, CV75 said:

I'd say the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The progressive stages and estates along the way are necessary passages to that; any lesser kingdom of glory in the resurrection is a deviation from the actual Plan.

From what I see and have read it never says that anywhere in the scriptures.  Even with my own personal opinions, which I won't pollute the thread with, reference the scriptures and different prophets.  Many people are trying to make up an idea that the prophets or someone said that, but it does not say this anywhere in any scripture and no prophet has ever stated this either as far as I know in my historical research.

As for the scriptures, they do not infer or say this.  In fact, the words of the Lord in the New Testament and the things we read in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants explicitly imply something else.

However, one can believe what they wish, but from what I've been taught and my understanding the scriptures imply that the rewards in heaven are eternal, and what we get in the afterlife reflect the choices we made (of our own free agency) in this life. 

This thread covers the plan of salvation as shown in the Scriptures used by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and thus I'm not even really using statements by various prophets or others through the years, though, as stated in my initial post, I may do that in another thread with more personal commentary and opinions).

This is the basics of the plan of salvation.  Nevertheless, I do not know all things.  If you feel what you say is correct, for a claim like that you'll need a reference directly from the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants.  You can also look in Gospel Principles (and based on my own insertion below, also from the Church's own website of official definitions or statements currently on a subject as defined by the article or page heading) if you so desire and can find backing of your comment in there as this thread covers the basics of the Plan of Salvation rather than offshoots or personal opinions on the matter.

That said, I will inject a TINY bit of non-scriptural (but heavily references scripture) from the Church's own site (if that is acceptable, is it is directly from the Church on it's own doctrines or teachings).

The Last Judgment

Quote

The Final Judgment that will occur after the Resurrection. God, through Jesus Christ, will judge each person to determine the eternal glory he will receive. This judgment will be based on each person’s obedience to God’s commands, including his acceptance of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

  • The Father hath committed all judgment unto the Son, John 5:22.

  • We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, Rom. 14:10.

  • The dead were judged out of those things which were written, Rev. 20:12 (D&C 128:6–7).

  • For all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment, 1 Ne. 10:20.

  • The Twelve Apostles and the twelve Nephite disciples will judge Israel, 1 Ne. 12:9–10 (D&C 29:12).

  • All must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One, 2 Ne. 9:15.

  • Prepare your souls for that glorious day, 2 Ne. 9:46.

  • Can ye imagine yourselves before the tribunal of God, Alma 5:17–25.

  • Jesus Christ shall stand to judge the world, 3 Ne. 27:16.

  • The Lord shall come down with a curse to judgment on the ungodly, D&C 133:2.

And a Scripture to expound on the final judgments from D&C 88

Quote

20 That bodies who are of the acelestial kingdom may bpossess it forever and ever; for, for this cintent was it made and created, and for this intent are they dsanctified.

21 And they who are not asanctified through the blaw which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit canother kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the alaw of a celestial kingdom cannot babide a ccelestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a aterrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a atelestial bkingdom cannot abide a telestial cglory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the aearth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the bmeasure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be asanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall bdie, it shall be cquickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the drighteous shall einherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall arise again, a bspiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial aspirit shall receive the same bbody which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your cglory shall be that glory by which your bodies are dquickened.

29 Ye who are aquickened by a portion of the bcelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the aterrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same.

35 That which abreaketh a law, and babideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, djustice, nor ejudgment. Therefore, they must remain ffilthy still.

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many akingdoms; for there is no bspace in the which there is no ckingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a alaw; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those aconditions are not bjustified.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JohnsonJones the reason I say that the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ is because the plan of salvation* hinges on the Atonement of Christ,  which opens the way for all of Father's children on earth to be exalted.

The reason i refer to the progressive stages and estates (pre-mortality, mortality, post-mortal spirit world, the covenants and ordinances, resurrection) along the way as necessary passages to exatation is because no one can attain it expect by passing through them (including Jesus Himself).

The reason I say that any lesser kingdom of glory in the resurrection is a deviation from the actual Plan for our exaltation is because this is what D&C 76 teaches.

*also called the “the merciful plan of the great Creator” (2 Nephi 9:6), “the plan of our God” (2 Nephi 9:13), “the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death” (2 Nephi 11:5), the “plan of redemption (18 places in Alma and Jacob),” “the great plan of the Eternal God” (Alma 34:9), “the plan of restoration” (Alma 41:2), the “plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8,16), “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15,31), as well as “the plan of salvation” (Jarom 1:2; Alma 24:14; 42:5) -- several of these terms (bolded) being direct references to the Atonement of Christ, which of course is set in place to secure our exaltation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, CV75 said:

@JohnsonJones the reason I say that the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ

Exaltation != Salvation.

All of Heavenly Father's children will be saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/24/2020 at 7:30 PM, JohnsonJones said:

This is what we call the Pre-existence.

Thanks for the write up.  It was good for me to review the Plan again.  

One pet peeve of mine I inherited from an Institute teacher is the use of the word "Pre-existence."  There is no such thing.  We've always existed in one form or another.  It's more accurate to use pre-mortal life or pre-mortal existence. Now, that nit has been picked. 

Thanks again. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Exaltation != Salvation.

All of Heavenly Father's children will be saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Exaltation does equal Salvation, but Salvation != Exaltation. Someone is able to be saved (salvation) without being exalted, and anyone who is exalted is saved (salvation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Exaltation does equal Salvation, but Salvation != Exaltation. Someone is able to be saved (salvation) without being exalted, and anyone who is exalted is saved (salvation).

Exaltation != Salvation

Exaltation > Salvation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Exaltation != Salvation

Exaltation > Salvation

I understand what you are saying (which is why I shared what I shared), although, this is what has been taught and is currently taught:

What is Salvation? "Salvation is exaltation. That is the sum and substance of the whole matter. Salvation is eternal life."

Salvation and Exaltation are synonymous. "Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom."

All one. "Thus, in the full, true, and accurate sense of the word, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation are all one —they mean to go where God is and to be like him!"

All Exalted == Salvation (true Salvation, Eternal life)

All Saved != Exaltation but can be == Salvation depending on how one is using the term salvation if simply meaning they are saved to a degree of glory (not in outer darkness).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Exaltation != Salvation

Exaltation > Salvation

The Celestial Kingdom is divided into three tiers.   The highest tier is Exaltation, which is the only one we know the name of.  Ministering angels are of a different tier, but still in the Celestial Kingdom.   At least that's what used to be taught.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I understand what you are saying (which is why I shared what I shared), although, this is what has been taught and is currently taught:

What is Salvation? "Salvation is exaltation. That is the sum and substance of the whole matter. Salvation is eternal life."

Salvation and Exaltation are synonymous. "Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom."

All one. "Thus, in the full, true, and accurate sense of the word, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation are all one —they mean to go where God is and to be like him!"

All Exalted == Salvation (true Salvation, Eternal life)

All Saved != Exaltation but can be == Salvation depending on how one is using the term salvation if simply meaning they are saved to a degree of glory (not in outer darkness).

 

 

20 minutes ago, Scott said:

The Celestial Kingdom is divided into three tiers.   The highest tier is Exaltation, which is the only one we know the name of.  Ministering angels are of a different tier, but still in the Celestial Kingdom.   At least that's what used to be taught.

 

The qualifying term in the discussion is ALL.

Edited by anatess2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The qualifying term in the discussion is ALL.

In the example I provided yes. In the statement pertaining to exaltation and salvation it is clear exaltation == salvation and salvation == exaltation. So to say Exaltation != Salvation isn't a true statement unless a person qualifies it with the definition they are using for salvation (e.g. using the term salvation simply meaning to be saved as all are saved except the sons of perdition).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

In the example I provided yes. In the statement pertaining to exaltation and salvation it is clear exaltation == salvation and salvation == exaltation. So to say Exaltation != Salvation isn't a true statement unless a person qualifies it with the definition they are using for salvation (e.g. using the term salvation simply meaning to be saved as all are saved except the sons of perdition).

Ok.  I'm really not sure what we're talking about anymore.  My little "equation" was a response to the statement ALL mankind are going to be exalted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is the statement from @JohnsonJones that sparked the response, " the reason I say that the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ "

This would be an accurate statement that "ALL" who are exalted are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Your statement is accurate also, but isn't what JohnsonJones was specifying, " All of Heavenly Father's children will be saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "

Both statements are accurate.

I was simply responding to the statement that Salvation does not equal to Exaltation, when in its truest form Salvation does equal Exaltation. Salvation has more than one meaning in scripture and by our prophets. So, when giving a definitive answer pertaining to Salvation it needs to be qualified, because at its truest form Salvation is equal to -- synonymous with -- Exaltation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

So this is the statement from @JohnsonJones that sparked the response, " the reason I say that the actual Plan is that all of Heavenly Father's children are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ "

This would be an accurate statement that "ALL" who are exalted are exalted through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Your statement is accurate also, but isn't what JohnsonJones was specifying, " All of Heavenly Father's children will be saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. "

Both statements are accurate.

I was simply responding to the statement that Salvation does not equal to Exaltation, when in its truest form Salvation does equal Exaltation. Salvation has more than one meaning in scripture and by our prophets. So, when giving a definitive answer pertaining to Salvation it needs to be qualified, because at its truest form Salvation is equal to -- synonymous with -- Exaltation.

 

You mean CV75, not JJ.

That's why I mentioned Salvation because if the Plan is for all of us to be Exalted, then it will be called the Plan of Exaltation.  This is a hinge-point in the discussion between grace and works.  ALL of us will be saved.  That is the Plan of Salvation.  It's not that the Plan is for all of us to be Exalted and those who don't reach that goal is a deviation of the Plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You mean CV75, not JJ.

That's why I mentioned Salvation because if the Plan is for all of us to be Exalted, then it will be called the Plan of Exaltation.  This is a hinge-point in the discussion between grace and works.  ALL of us will be saved.  That is the Plan of Salvation.  It's not that the Plan is for all of us to be Exalted and those who don't reach that goal is a deviation of the Plan.

Yep, I missed who said, "I was just noticing the tag to JohnsonJones, not CV75."

I think this is where semantics are going to play in our conversation. To be clear I understand your point. I understand what you are saying. Salvation and Exaltation are synonymous (at their truest definition). So the plan being called The Plan of Salvation is in fact the Plan of Exaltation -- how to live once again with God. If people choose not to, then God has provided means for them to be saved (e.g. receive a Kingdom of glory other than Exaltation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Exaltation != Salvation.

All of Heavenly Father's children will be saved through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and all are exalted (potentially: Christ paid the full price for that), but each person must choose it and act accordingly. Are His pains wasted when people reject Him? I think not; He is eternal nonetheless, and the pains He suffered include those He feels for the sorrow from and for those who chose not to love Him, but where others join Him (Moses 7) in accordance with Mosiah 18: 9.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is my personal observation that all the information and revelation we have concerning the Plan of Salvation is vague and obviously incomplete.  There is an old saying that the devil is in the details.  The contentions (note that contention is of the devil) is all about interpretations and what many call speculations based on scripture.  Another way of saying this is "the philosophies of men - mingled with scripture."  Philosophies of men are speculations and interpretations.  For some reason we humans must "fill in the blanks".  It is part of our nature.  Scientifically, we have learned that the human brain is wired to speculate and anticipate.   This is a part of our intelligent nature and ability to logically determine what can result from choices.  Without this ability to anticipate the future it is impossible to exercise agency associated with any choice.

The most critical element of the Plan of Salvation is the element of Christ or the Messiah - without which there can be no salvation and thus no Plan of Salvation

There are many elements or principles of the Plan of Salvation.  In fact all truth is tied directly to and is part of the Plan of Salvation.  It is interesting to me that all formal presentations of the Plan of Salvation begin with a creation specific to this world we call earth. 

Another principle of the Plan of Salvation is that we existed and displayed intelligence as entities before we were born.  I personal believe this is a critical notion of G-d, justice, compassion and the purpose of our mortal experience on earth.  I believe it critical because without this understanding and belief - our notions and interpretations of divine nature and our purpose here will be skewed heavily with error.   It is just as necessary to understand an existence before birth as it is our existence after death in order to deal with such divine notions as love, compassion and justice.

Another principle of the Plan of Salvation is our participation in a counsel in heaven where we made choices that affected our futures.  This includes the rebellion of Lucifer and those that followed him.  This is very critical to our understanding of a division within the most advanced and intelligent society that is possible to exist.

Another principle of the Plan of Salvation is the fall of man - also called the Fall of Adam which includes our separation from G-d our Father - this separation includes a stunning veil of forgetfulness.

Another principle of the Plan of salvation is our experience as a mortal - the two prime elements of necessity is to receive a mortal body and to die a physical death.  Thus completing the experience of both physical and spiritual death (the knowledge of evil).

Another principle of the Plan of Salvation are the Laws, Ordinances, and Everlasting Covenant of G-d.  I personally find it interesting that we must knowingly accept even the Ordinances of Salvation for the plan to be completed.  The Laws, Ordinances and Everlasting Covenant include repentance and an investment in the Messiah.

Another principle of the Plan of Salvation is that our intelligent spirit is immortal and remains in existence after we die.

The final principle of the Plan of Salvation is the resurrection and and what is called "final judgement" where we are given  a crown of Glory for our participation in the Plan.

Please note that the principles given are quite vague and do not answer a lot of what if's?    I am astonished how many items I have personally resolved with logic that are not the conclusions of other Saints also employing logic to fill in the many and obvious gaps in the revelations.  I like to think that I am an expert in logic and more likely to be correct - or at least more likely to logically explain my extended conclusions.  But I have also observed that nothing is learned from discussing such things with those that have come to the same exact conclusions that I have.  Most disappointing for me are those that have come to different conclusions that are unable or deliberately refuse to consider certain principles of logic just because it caused problems to their paradigm.   Another concern is when others come to different conclusions when considering the same principles - but become upset when asked to explain their logic to arrive at their conclusion.  In general I believe that the primary reason for someone to become upset when their logic is questioned - is because they doubt it themselves and that is why they are incapable of explaining it or dealing with questions.

 

The Traveler 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/25/2020 at 9:37 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

However, it was Heavenly Father's plan, then Lucifer wanted to tweak the plan...
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng
 

I needed some help on this section.  It was in a related link on your reference.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/10/the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

"What occurred in this first estate is dimly understood, but we do know that we lived there as spirits,
children of our Heavenly Father, and we made certain steps of advancement to prepare for the
opportunity of housing our eternal spirits in earthly bodies."

What steps?

Another part said "God created Adam and Eve in His own image, with bodies of flesh and bones, and placed
them in the Garden of Eden
."

Is that a misprint?  I read that she was was created with that kind of body in the garden.

Peter (it doesn't appear I let the forum know my christianese name earlier)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now