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Carborendum

Temples And Protection

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I would urge everyone to listen to and read this GC address by Elder Bednar. It was referenced in this week's CFM manual. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/04/honorably-hold-a-name-and-standing?lang=eng

I was acutely aware of this because of my calling as Temple & FH leader.  But as the speech went on, it became more and more apparent just how important temples are in this day.  TODAY.  Right NOW!  Specifically, he talks of the protection we receive because of "Temple Worship".

But we are prevented from attending the temple.  A part of me wonders if our condemnation for "taking lightly that which we've received" includes the blessings of the temple.  And because of that, we've had our temples taken away from us.  Without our temples, we lose some of the blessings -- which include protections -- from the Lord.

Speaking of taking lightly... I have to admit that I have no memory of this address when it was first given in 2009.  I'm so sad.

1. CFM manual talks of the people of Ammon who "never did fall away".

2. Elder Bednar is quoted (from the above linked talk) as saying.

Quote

The sheaves in this analogy represent newly baptized members of the Church. The garners are the holy temples.

Applying that metaphor, it implies that the People of Ammon never fell away because they regularly worshipped in the temples.  The message then is clear.  If we are to never fall away, we must also regularly worship in the temple.  (Alma 26:6).

Paraprhase:

Quote

The sacrament covenant includes a "willingness to take upon us the name of Christ."

The realization of that covenant is found in the temples.  It is there that we actually "take upon us the name of Christ."

This is an important point that I wish were taught more often.

Now, you may have noticed how I bolded the phrase worshipped in the temple. Here's why.

Quote

There is a difference between church-attending, tithe-paying members who occasionally rush into the temple to go through a session and those members who faithfully and consistently worship in the temple.”

I know that I've been guilty of just "going through a session" quite often.  And, again, it is my wife who reminds me that I need to take time to ponder, pray, and listen to the Spirit while in the Celestial Room.

I'm just now learning this and recognizing the great blessing of the temple.  But I'm denied entry (as is the world).  Why didn't I take more advantage of the temple when I could?

Edited by Carborendum

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I have wondered if I ought to respond with a certain thought.  There are "pieces" to our temple worship.   One piece is specific to prayers or perhaps I should say temple prayers.  I have received counsel that in seeking understanding to answers to specific prayers that the proper "order" and to be a part of temple prayer according to our covenants and worship and then to be still and quite and instead of continuing our personal prayer in the Celestial room that we listen, meditate and await the spiritual answer and shift from our spiritual utterances to listening to the L-rd. 

 

The Traveler

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I would urge everyone to listen to and read this GC address by Elder Bednar. It was referenced in this week's CFM manual. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/04/honorably-hold-a-name-and-standing?lang=eng

I was acutely aware of this because of my calling as Temple & FH leader.  But as the speech went on, it became more and more apparent just how important temples are in this day.  TODAY.  Right NOW!  Specifically, he talks of the protection we receive because of "Temple Worship".

But we are prevented from attending the temple.  A part of me wonders if our condemnation for "taking lightly that which we've received" includes the blessings of the temple.  And because of that, we've had our temples taken away from us.  Without our temples, we lose some of the blessings -- which include protections -- from the Lord.

Speaking of taking lightly... I have to admit that I have no memory of this address when it was first given in 2009.  I'm so sad.

1. CFM manual talks of the people of Ammon who "never did fall away".

2. Elder Bednar is quoted (from the above linked talk) as saying.

Applying that metaphor, it implies that the People of Ammon never fell away because they regularly worshipped in the temples.  The message then is clear.  If we are to never fall away, we must also regularly worship in the temple.  (Alma 26:6).

Paraprhase:

This is an important point that I wish were taught more often.

Now, you may have noticed how I bolded the phrase worshipped in the temple. Here's why.

I know that I've been guilty of just "going through a session" quite often.  And, again, it is my wife who reminds me that I need to take time to ponder, pray, and listen to the Spirit while in the Celestial Room.

I'm just now learning this and recognizing the great blessing of the temple.  But I'm denied entry (as is the world).  Why didn't I take more advantage of the temple when I could?

I agree. One possible benefit of this inability to do temple work is that in our stake the first steps of temple work has increased, namely, family history. The number of people doing indexing and submitting names (especially the youth) has gone up.

I too have "gone through" a session or two, and have not always been as alert, attentive, or reverent as I could have been. When it comes time for the Temple doors to reopen I will definitely have a different level of appreciation for it.

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51 minutes ago, scottyg said:

I too have "gone through" a session or two, and have not always been as alert, attentive, or reverent as I could have been. When it comes time for the Temple doors to reopen I will definitely have a different level of appreciation for it.

I was "conditioned" by my early introductions to temple worship during a time my life was cluttered and busy; to find the peaceful and restful state there a strong catalyst for sleep.  The only offset seems to be a realization of revelations unique and specific to temple worship.  My brother was "home taught" (ministered to) by Hugh Nibley.  My brother said that Brother Nibley would begin his monthly visit with the statement, "I learned something new during my recent attendance at the temple". 

 

The Traveler

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I

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

When it comes time for the Temple doors to reopen I will definitely have a different level of appreciation for it.

I speculate that when temple doors reopen that there will not be enough time and room to accommodate all seeking a new appreciation. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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49 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was "conditioned" by my early introductions to temple worship during a time my life was cluttered and busy; to find the peaceful and restful state there a strong catalyst for sleep.  The only offset seems to be a realization of revelations unique and specific to temple worship.  My brother was "home taught" (ministered to) by Hugh Nibley.  My brother said that Brother Nibley would begin his monthly visit with the statement, "I learned something new during my recent attendance at the temple". 

 

The Traveler

Those would have been very rewarding visits...it would be interesting to know the things that those who are both so temporally and spiritually advanced, like Hugh Nibley, learn in the temple.

 

45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I

I speculate that when temple doors reopen that there will not be enough time and room to accommodate all seeking a new appreciation. 

 

The Traveler

I certainly hope that's the case. :)

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12 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Those would have been very rewarding visits...it would be interesting to know the things that those who are both so temporally and spiritually advanced, like Hugh Nibley, learn in the temple.

 

What impressed me was that the great and thorough thinker that Brother Nibley was - that he discovered something new and exciting with each visit.  I will share one of my own.  I have often wondered why the Book of Mormon talked about those that were "stiff necked" as if this is a special kind of stubborn.   And there is - when the nick remains unmoved and unwilling in covenant.

 

The Traveler

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A couple weeks ago, my wife and I finished studying April General Conference.  Pres. Nelson's last talk addressed temple worship.  

My wife and I have been going through the temple section in the Gospel Library.  It's been really good for me to help me remember the covenants and instruction.  There is definitely some type of temple worship we can still do while the doors are closed.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/57nelson?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples?lang=eng

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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I can hope you're right.

The last time our assigned temple closed down for renovations - the wife and I went to another temple in the SL valley (this was midweek in the morning).  We were unable to get into anything for over 4 hours and our schedule was not that flexible.  

 

The Traveler

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Keep in mind that the simple act of starting and completing a temple session has enabled one soul on the other side eternal blessings and opportunities, regardless if you were half conscious or thinking about your work schedule the next day. Its amazing to think that we have unlocked the powers of heaven to bless others as well as ourselves.

Being a worthy proxy is all that it require....oh, yeah, and a temple in operation.

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7 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Keep in mind that the simple act of starting and completing a temple session has enabled one soul on the other side eternal blessings and opportunities, regardless if you were half conscious or thinking about your work schedule the next day. Its amazing to think that we have unlocked the powers of heaven to bless others as well as ourselves.

Being a worthy proxy is all that it require....oh, yeah, and a temple in operation.

I think you make a good post.

As long as one is worthy, I think, even if one is not in the mood to go to the temple, it is always a good idea to attend the temple.  There are times we probably (or at least I probably have) do not take it seriously enough when we are there performing temple work, but hopefully it helps to at least move us closer to the Lord than we were when we arrived, and it is trying to help others in ways which they are unable to do things themselves. 

I think in some ways it could be viewed as many other forms of service.  For example, I admit that cleaning the bathrooms in the Church are NOT my favorite thing to do.  I cannot say I joyfully go to clean them, nor that I look forward to cleaning them.  However, even though it is a thing to help the church and benefits me and many others, I just don't enjoy it.  This means that I probably do not receive the full blessings I COULD receive if I did it with a better attitude and more humble heart and serious demeanor of serving the Lord in whatever capacity I am allowed. 

That said, even if I do not receive the full blessings I and many others receive the blessings of doing so.  In a temporal matter, we at least have clean bathrooms in the church building.  This is actually a great blessing.  In a more spiritual matter, it allows us to focus more on the goings on at the church (when we are able to attend safely, which many still can't, but when we can) and the spirit rather than distractions such as dirty restrooms.

Now the temple is far easier to see the spiritual focus and in many ways less of a temporal thing and more of a spiritual matter in regards to the work we are doing.  However, the idea is similar.  When we are not fully engaged and going through the motions we may not get the full blessings of attendance that we may have.

HOWEVER...we still receive blessings.  Others also receive blessings from attending.  It helps draw us closer to the Lord and helps us to be in the presence of his spirit as long as we are willing to be receptive to it.  We perform services for others.  We are blessed with the spirit more strongly in our lives.  There are many blessings from attending the temple, even when we are not fully into going or participating, but do so anyways.

I would say, when we can attend again, that we are blessed by attending the temple.  If we wait only till we feel we can fully engage, we may miss out on opportunities and blessings we may have otherwise received if we had just gone and did the work regardless. 

Just some of my thoughts on attending the temple, and even if we are not fully engaged (and, I agree we should try to be, but sometimes we aren't...or at least there have been times I have not, much of this is because I am imperfect), we should still try to attend and participate as long as we are worthy to attend and participate in Temple Worship.

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7 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Keep in mind that the simple act of starting and completing a temple session has enabled one soul on the other side eternal blessings and opportunities, regardless if you were half conscious or thinking about your work schedule the next day. Its amazing to think that we have unlocked the powers of heaven to bless others as well as ourselves.

Being a worthy proxy is all that it require....oh, yeah, and a temple in operation.

Yes, this occurred to me as well.  But you are missing the point of Elder Bednar's address.  He's talking about "the next level". 

It is a fine thing that others are blessed because of "going through a session."  But the true blessings and protection of the temple come from actual "worship" while in the temple.

"Taking upon us the name of Christ" is achieved in the temple.  If going through for our own endowments, can we really say that we've made a covenant if we're only half paying attention?  When we're performing a proxy ordinance, we are also renewing our covenants we made when we went the first time through.  Can we say we're renewing a covenant if we're half asleep?

Can we have a credible claim on the Divine protections of the Temple if we don't continually renew our covenants in the Temple and continually renew the name of Christ on our souls?

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On 6/30/2020 at 7:40 AM, Carborendum said:

I know that I've been guilty of just "going through a session" quite often.  And, again, it is my wife who reminds me that I need to take time to ponder, pray, and listen to the Spirit while in the Celestial Room.

Did the Jerusalem temple have a celestial room?

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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Did the Jerusalem temple have a celestial room?

It had a Holy of Holies, which like modern celestial rooms represented coming back into the presence of the very throne of God.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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14 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, this occurred to me as well.  But you are missing the point of Elder Bednar's address.  He's talking about "the next level". 

 

Here is the one sentence from his talk that may suggest what you might have interpreted as Next level temple worshipping...

There is a difference between church-attending, tithe-paying members who occasionally rush into the temple to go through a session and those members who faithfully and consistently worship in the temple.”

That statement is fine in and of itself and we can agree that not only in religion but life in general, the more we take things serious the more growth happens, but this is hardly next level, if anything it is standard level. He also only says that there is a difference in the people and not that one type is more worthy of blessings then the other.

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It is a fine thing that others are blessed because of "going through a session."  But the true blessings and protection of the temple come from actual "worship" while in the temple.

That is not true and Elder Bednar never said anything like it. He said there is a difference in the people but you are saying there is a difference in worship, as if you either do it or not. This is very important to point out because I do not know one person that has gone to the temple to "not" worship.  Let me suggest that I do not know of 1, not 1 person in my lifetime that said "lets go to the temple to swim in the font and practice our backstroke", "its my daughters prom night, lets go to the temple to dress because they have big mirrors".

You are making a false assumption that by being tired (going in and out of conscious) while going through a session, is not "actual" worship. By being overly consumed with work/family problems that occasionally distract from the session movie is not "actual" worship. Both of these examples are the result of someone that decided that he needed to go to the temple to worship and it just so happened on that day that he was feeling that way. Maybe next month his state of mind is different, we should not discourage anyone from attending the temple by making them feel that they aint worshipping properly and they aint going to receive true blessings.

Elder Bednar said there is a difference in the people with those different habits but never anything about one being better then the other. In fact later he says ...our willingness to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ and the blessing of protection promised to those who honorably hold a name and standing in the holy temple. Significantly, these covenant blessings are to all generations and for all eternity.

I would believe that 100% of temple goers are "willing to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ" and "honorably hold a name and standing in the holy temple".

 

 

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

"Taking upon us the name of Christ" is achieved in the temple.  If going through for our own endowments, can we really say that we've made a covenant if we're only half paying attention?  When we're performing a proxy ordinance, we are also renewing our covenants we made when we went the first time through.  Can we say we're renewing a covenant if we're half asleep?

Why do you think we attend multiple times for the rest of our lives doing the same exact ordinance and procedure? Maybe it takes a lifetime to grow into and understand those covenants? but I am absolutely 100% sure that everyone who has done their endowment regardless of being half attentive or partly unaware of what happened did enter into the covenant and what was sealed on earth was sealed in heaven.

Once again you assume that one goes to the temple to "not" make covenants and to "not" worship. Someone that does not want to do those things does not go to the temple. Everyone that does attend the temple, it is their intention to covenant and worship, regardless how their session ends up going.
Sleeping does happen. Occasionally I hear someone lightly snoring. If the covenants were void upon sleeping the temple workers would have been instructed to wake people up, and that would require some of the temple workers to wake up themselves. 

 

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5 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I do not know one person that has gone to the temple to "not" worship.  Let me suggest that I do not know of 1, not 1 person in my lifetime that said "lets go to the temple to swim in the font and practice our backstroke", "its my daughters prom night, lets go to the temple to dress because they have big mirrors".

PP, 

I did not ridicule you in my response.  I would think it common courtesy for you to return the favor.

The quoted portion above (your central theme) is a straw man.  I never said any such thing.  There is a difference between intent vs success/failure.  I'm sure everyone goes to the temple with the "intent" to worship.  But many fail in actually following through.  And, yes, I'll concede that anyone who actually "goes through a session" is worshiping in some form. 

5 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

but this is hardly next level, if anything it is standard level. He also only says that there is a difference in the people and not that one type is more worthy of blessings then the other.

Yes, and that difference is in "level" not in "kind".  I don't know of any other options.  If you can think of one, let me know.  If you're saying it is different in "kind" then explain, please.

Quote

He said there is a difference in the people but you are saying there is a difference in worship, as if you either do it or not.

And the difference would be...? 

Quote

You are making a false assumption that by being tired (going in and out of conscious) while going through a session, is not "actual" worship.

As I've conceded above, yes, simply "going" is a form of worship.  I think that when we kneel down as a family every morning and every night, we are praying.  But there are times when the prayers are very common.  And there are times when prayer is very sincere and consists of pouring out my soul to the Lord.  This is most certainly "next level."

Quote

we should not discourage anyone from attending the temple by making them feel that they aint worshipping properly and they aint going to receive true blessings.

Straw man.

Would you tell someone to continue to say the same rote prayers every day rather than pouring out one's soul to the Lord?  Would you say these are equivalent in spiritual benefits?  By advising people to really pour out their souls to the Lord, is that somehow discouraging prayer entirely?

As I did in my last post, I'll concede that there is most certainly a benefit when we simply "go".  But I cannot accept that to be equal to going with real intent and full purpose of heart.

I'm not certain why such a vehemence to go against my interpretation here.  Are you saying that we all ought to go through a session and fall asleep all the time?  Are you saying that is the preferred mode of temple worship?  Is it not better to pay attention and have full intent throughout the session?

While I concede that simply "going" has benefits in and of itself, I don't see why you would be arguing that to fall asleep during a session provides absolutely equal levels of benefits as someone who would be fully engaged during the process.

Edited by Carborendum

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On 7/1/2020 at 3:49 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

It had a Holy of Holies, which like modern celestial rooms represented coming back into the presence of the very throne of God.

Who could enter the Holy of Holies and how often?

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Multiple general authorities, including Elder Bednar, have stated that partaking of the sacrament is a renewing of ALL covenants. I assume this includes temple covenants. So in this sense temple worship has not ceased. Also, we ourselves are temples. I think this means, at least in part, that what takes place in the temple can be reviewed in our minds and hearts which can still result in sacred experiences. Lastly, we are commanded to stand in holy places. Perhaps our focus right now should be on improving the holiness of places outside the temple.

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2 hours ago, laronius said:

Multiple general authorities, including Elder Bednar, have stated that partaking of the sacrament is a renewing of ALL covenants. I assume this includes temple covenants. 

I'd like to see those quotes.

The quotes I've read seem to still leave some wiggle room on that matter.  And I think the issue is still up for debate... if you actually want to debate the issue.  I suppose it could be true.  But I also suppose it could be false.  So, until I get a clear position otherwise, I'm going with temple for temple covenants and sacrament for baptismal covenants.

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@Carborendum

Here is at least one instance, Elder Perry quoting Elder Stapley:

"Elder Delbert L. Stapley instructed us in this when he said about covenants:

“The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a covenant between God and his people. … When baptized by an authorized servant of God, we covenant to do God’s will and to obey his commandments. … By partaking of the Sacrament we renew all covenants entered into with the Lord and pledge ourselves to take upon us the name of his Son, to always remember him and keep his commandments” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1965, 14)."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/04/as-now-we-take-the-sacrament?lang=eng

It seems like Elder Bednar quoted him as well but I could be wrong. This of course doesn't constitute "official doctrine" but from a strictly doctrinal point of view, if by partaking of the sacrament we are renewing the covenant to keep the Lord's commandments then I would have to assume that includes our temple covenants. But I guess it comes down to how you define "renew" and its purpose. If the object of renewal revolves around the repentance process and as being preparatory for making and keeping temple covenants then you can make the case for the sacrament being strictly a baptismal covenant renewal. But if on the other hand we view renewing it in the larger context of reaffirming our standing with the Lord and our covenant relationship with Him then we must include the covenants made in the temple. Either way you can make valid points and I don't really have a dog in the fight though based on my current understanding I would lean more towards a renewal of all covenants.

 

 

Edited by laronius

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