Queer sister speaks at 2021 BYU Women's Conference

[Vort]

I wish I had been a lawyer. Then I could know my own thoughts better and organize and express them more clearly.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I listened to this speech made by this woman struggling with her sin.  She said in her speech:  "But now that I know I am not broken.  I am perfect the way I am."

I disagree these words that she said.  We are all fallen and sinful.  We are broken and imperfect children of God in desperate need of our Saviour's grace.  If we did not have Christ we would not be able to inherit eternal life.  To say otherwise is to deny the natural man and woman within all of us and also denying the truth taught in Romans 3:23-24 Inspired Version:  "For all have sinned and come short of glory of God. Therefore, being justified only by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

[NeuroTypical]

44 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I listened to this speech made by this woman struggling with her sin.  She said in her speech:  "But now that I know I am not broken.  I am perfect the way I am."

Yeah, context is important. 

"For a long time, I felt that recognizing who I am, made me broken.  I was ashamed of saying it out loud.  I had always had those feelings, but it took me about 20 years to look at myself in the mirror and say it out loud.  But now I know that I'm not broken. I am perfect the way I am."

This woman is not "struggling with her sin".  She is struggling with her feelings/orientation.  And we all know that feelings/orientation is not the same thing as behaviors, right?   So yes, all fall short of the glory of God and all are broken, and yes, she said "I am not broken".  You get the obvious context, right?  She felt like she was built wrong by her creator, and it took her decades to realize that wasn't the case.

I guess, do we believe her?  Do we clutch to the belief that if you feel gay, it is because you have sinned?  Do we reject the notion that God makes gay people, and instead only experiences/behaviors/upbringings make gay people?

I mean, yes, I've spent most of my adult life very resistant to the notion that God might make someone gay.  Over the last couple years of watching what the church is doing, has me questioning that.  I sure have no problem believing God makes some people mentally ill, even criminally violently mentally ill.  Or more susceptible to alcoholism.   I believe some folks with serious psychoses are built, through no fault of their own, unable to feel the spirit or the light of Christ.  But yeah, this one's a tougie.

Edited May 4, 2021 by NeuroTypical

[Suzie]

Quote

I listened to this speech made by this woman struggling with her sin.  She said in her speech:  "But now that I know I am not broken.  I am perfect the way I am."

What sin are your referring to? Maybe I missed that part of the speech? All I saw was someone who introduced herself as a YW President, a daughter, a sister, a returned missionary, a person who loves to go to the Temple and a queer. "And above all of this, a daughter of heavenly parents who strives every day to be a disciple of Christ".

Edited May 4, 2021 by Suzie

[Suzie]

On 4/30/2021 at 6:56 PM, Vort said:

I confess, I have never understood this verse of scripture. Luke 16:9 introduces the idea of making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness.

 

“The commandment of the Lord that the saints should make themselves ‘friends with the mammon of unrighteousness,’ seems to be a hard saying when not properly understood. It is not intended that in making friends of the ‘mammon of unrighteousness’ that the brethren were to partake with them in their sins; to receive them to their bosoms, intermarry with them and . . . come down to their level. They were to so live that peace with their enemies might be assured. They were to treat them kindly, be friendly with them as far as correct and virtuous principles would permit, but never to swear with them or drink and carouse with them. If they could allay prejudice and show a willingness to trade with and show a kindly spirit, it might help to turn them away from their bitterness. Judgment was to be left with the Lord.” (Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:323.)

[Vort]

On 5/1/2021 at 2:26 PM, NeuroTypical said:

But it's obvious that the gut reaction of many is:  Different sexual orientation =  automatically suspected of sexual sin.

This is simply not so. The gut reaction is "Let's not minimize perverse feelings and thoughts, pretending there's nothing wrong with them and heaping praise and glory upon those who openly admit to them." Or do you really want people praised for publicly admitting to lusting after their neighbor's daughter or wanting to beat the crap out of their own children? How brave of them!!

Among the worldly, there is no shame any more (except when you transgress the mob "morality"). We are much the worse for that fact.

[dprh]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

This is simply not so. The gut reaction is "Let's not minimize perverse feelings and thoughts, pretending there's nothing wrong with them and heaping praise and glory upon those who openly admit to them." Or do you really want people praised for publicly admitting to lusting after their neighbor's daughter or wanting to beat the crap out of their own children? How brave of them!!

Among the worldly, there is no shame any more (except when you transgress the mob "morality"). We are much the worse for that fact.

Maybe not praised.  But I gotta admit, since I've been going to ARP meetings I've learned a lot about sharing my thoughts, feelings, weaknesses with others.  There is something cathartic and healing about identifying and voicing them as well as hearing from others with similar circumstances.  Plenty of things I share I wouldn't be brave enough to say in public because I'm too scared about how others would react and treat me.  A big part of addiction lies in the secrets, the hiding.  Sometimes (I'd argue almost always) losing the shaming is a good thing.

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, dprh said:

Maybe not praised.  But I gotta admit, since I've been going to ARP meetings I've learned a lot about sharing my thoughts, feelings, weaknesses with others.  There is something cathartic and healing about identifying and voicing them as well as hearing from others with similar circumstances.  Plenty of things I share I wouldn't be brave enough to say in public because I'm too scared about how others would react and treat me.  A big part of addiction lies in the secrets, the hiding.  Sometimes (I'd argue almost always) losing the shaming is a good thing.

So it's about time and place. Sure, there is a time and a place to discuss our weaknesses. Advertising them publicly during a Church-sponsored Women's Conference, and then being praised for how wonderful you are for having discussed them, seems overtly wrong.

Shame exists for a purpose. If we do shameful things, we should be ashamed. As with any other emotion, there are times when shame is an inappropriate and even harmful response. But don't think that means shame itself is bad. A world without shame is called the jungle, and it's a place you do not want to live in.

[dprh]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

So it's about time and place. Sure, there is a time and a place to discuss our weaknesses. Advertising them publicly during a Church-sponsored Women's Conference, and then being praised for how wonderful you are for having discussed them, seems overtly wrong.

Shame exists for a purpose. If we do shameful things, we should be ashamed. As with any other emotion, there are times when shame is an inappropriate and even harmful response. But don't think that means shame itself is bad. A world without shame is called the jungle, and it's a place you do not want to live in.

Shame is quite a topic.  Brene Brown has put in incredible research into it.  If you're interested, I'd highly recommend reading some of her books or listening to a Ted Talk.

[NeuroTypical]

Just going from what this young woman said, what does she have to feel shame about?

 

 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just going from what this young woman said, what does she have to feel shame about?

You happily discuss your weaknesses and flaws in public? That we have such weaknesses and flaws is part of the mortal condition, but advertising them openly seems a shameful thing, unless there is a particularly appropriate reason to do so.

[NeuroTypical]

Fair enough.  I've listed what I figure are the particularly appropriate reasons here.  They're certainly arguable.

[dprh]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

You happily discuss your weaknesses and flaws in public? That we have such weaknesses and flaws is part of the mortal condition, but advertising them openly seems a shameful thing, unless there is a particularly appropriate reason to do so.

If we had a society where it wasn't shameful, I think there would be a lot less problems.  If I'd seen examples something like this, but with my issues, I think I'd have had a much better life.

Edited May 4, 2021 by dprh

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, dprh said:

If we had a society where it wasn't shameful, I think there would be a lot less problems.  If I'd seen examples something like this, but with my issues, I think I'd have had a much better life.

You may be right. I have thought about this topic quite a bit over the years. I have often wondered if maybe we should be willing to openly discuss anything and everything that we struggle with. But somehow, I can't make sense of the idea. "I have some weaknesses that I'm trying to overcome:"

• "I'm really attracted to Doug's wife. She's totally hot. I think constantly about undressing her."
• "I'm really attracted to Doug's daughter, even though she's only six years old. [etc]"
• "I hate conservatives/homosexuals/black people/white men/Mormons. I just can't stand them. If I could, I would like to destroy them all."
• "I'm just so jealous of Bob and Sue and their rich house and cars. I'd love to burn that stuff to the ground, with them inside."
• "Truth is, I think my wife is a harridan. Not only would I not marry her if I could do it over again, I would secretly campaign against her so that her life would be as miserable as I think it ought to be."

What do you suppose the societal response would be to such proclamations? What SHOULD the societal response be? "Thank you for sharing! That's so brave of you!"?

Do you think that shame about such impulses is appropriate? Do you think people feeling ashamed of such thoughts and feelings might be a motivator for them NOT to act on those ideas?

If we did away with the shame attached to such ideas, what do you think would be the result?

On rational analysis, I always conclude that we're much, much better off with shame than we would be without. If you have a counterargument, I'd love to hear it.

[NeedleinA]

Gallup Poll -  2/24/21

QUESTION: I know what some Church leaders think, but I wonder what you think...
is this self-identification a learned behavior, perpetuated by people trying to 'normalize' it OR is God simply sending more non-heterosexual individuals to earth in these latter generations?

SIDE NOTE: 
Currently Gallup says 1 in 6 adults of Generation Z identify as LGBT now. 

If it is a learned behavior, what will the percentage be of LGBT for Generation Alpha, Beta, etc. at this pace?
If it is a learned behavior, what happens to the LDS % of LGBT every time someone in authority in the Church tries to cast it in a positive light or normalize it?

[dprh]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

 

On rational analysis, I always conclude that we're much, much better off with shame than we would be without. If you have a counterargument, I'd love to hear it.

That's why I suggested reading some of Brene Brown's stuff.  She holds that there is a difference between shame and guilt.  Simplified, guilt is feeling that I did something bad, shame is feeling that I am bad.  Guilt can be very productive. It helps us realize that we've done something wrong and to do better.  Shame is never productive.  Feeling that I am bad, that I am broken, unable to be fixed.  It's a horrible place that I've lived most of my life and I'm discovering more and more people have.  

4 hours ago, Vort said:

 

• "I'm really attracted to Doug's wife. She's totally hot. I think constantly about undressing her."
• "I'm really attracted to Doug's daughter, even though she's only six years old. [etc]"
• "I hate conservatives/homosexuals/black people/white men/Mormons. I just can't stand them. If I could, I would like to destroy them all."
• "I'm just so jealous of Bob and Sue and their rich house and cars. I'd love to burn that stuff to the ground, with them inside."
• "Truth is, I think my wife is a harridan. Not only would I not marry her if I could do it over again, I would secretly campaign against her so that her life would be as miserable as I think it ought to be."

Those are very specific and extreme, but yes, it would be great if there was a safe place for you to express and share these things you are going through.  I'm not advocating that we share every weakness with every person.  It's easy to misconstrue an attempt to sway the pendulum in one direction as an attempt to push it completely over.  So don't share with Doug.  That's not what I've said.

I'm hoping I'm brave enough someday to talk about my experiences in Elder's Quorum.  Before the pandemic, there were a handful of times I almost did.  But, I've never seen anyone do anything like that.  It is extremely frightening to get that vulnerable, but I feel at some point it will help someone with their struggles. If I ever do, it will be different than what I've shared with my bishop, stake president, therapist, wife, children, family.  If I ever get asked to talk at a BYU conference, I will tailor it to that. 

Edit:

Shame doesn't prevent actions, it just makes people do them in secret.  Honestly, I think you could learn a lot by attending some ARP meetings or listening to some addiction podcasts.

https://unashamedunafraid.com/podcast-2

https://www.betrayedaddictedexpert.com/our-story

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/couples-healing-from-pornography-addiction-06IcdswLM7C/

https://leadingsaints.org/is-your-elders-quorum-or-relief-society-psychologically-safe/

https://reach10.org/breaking-the-silence-podcast/

Edited May 5, 2021 by dprh

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, dprh said:

That's why I suggested reading some of Brene Brown's stuff.  She holds that there is a difference between shame and guilt.  Simplified, guilt is feeling that I did something bad, shame is feeling that I am bad.  Guilt can be very productive. It helps us realize that we've done something wrong and to do better.  Shame is never productive.  Feeling that I am bad, that I am broken, unable to be fixed.  It's a horrible place that I've lived most of my life and I'm discovering more and more people have.

Maybe Brene Brown is just making stuff up. Maybe her distinction between guilt and shame is nonsense.

Maybe doing bad things means, at least sometimes, that you are a bad person. Isn't that possible? And if someone really is a bad person, then shouldn't his conscience tell him that he is?

Shouldn't people who do shameful things feel shame for having done them?

What do you think it means that someone is "a bad person"?

[dprh]

 

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Maybe Brene Brown is just making stuff up. Maybe her distinction between guilt and shame is nonsense.

Maybe doing bad things means, at least sometimes, that you are a bad person. Isn't that possible? And if someone really is a bad person, then shouldn't his conscience tell him that he is?

Shouldn't people who do shameful things feel shame for having done them?

What do you think it means that someone is "a bad person"?

No, I don't believe there are bad people.  I refuse.  There are people that have made terrible choices.  But everyone on this Earth chose to follow Heavenly Father's plan and exercised faith in Jesus Christ to come here.  And they can again.  

If the semantics bother you, let's use a new word that distinguishes between feeling bad for ones actions and feeling like I am bad.  Can you see that there is a difference? 

 I feel that people who do things that are wrong should feel guilty about what they've done.  They should not feel that they themselves are bad, wrong, broken, irredeemable. 

[Vort]

Just now, dprh said:

No, I don't believe there are bad people.

Then conversation is pretty much impossible. You refuse to acknowledge the existence of people of ill intent. You have bought into the idea that no one is really bad, just misguided. Evil doesn't really exist. And no one should ever, ever, ever feel bad about himself, not for any reason. He just murdered his girlfriend and ate her? Just some bad choices.

Shame is, by definition, what a healthy person feels when he does something shameful. So unless you're saying that nothing is shameful, your rejection of shame makes no sense. Word games and shifting definitions do not change the reality of things.

[dprh]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Then conversation is pretty much impossible.

We agree on something!  

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, dprh said:

We agree on something!  

No, because the word "agree" has no meaning. There is no such thing as agreement. Also, "something" doesn't really exist.

[mirkwood]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

You refuse to acknowledge the existence of people of ill intent.

They absolutely exist.  I have looked them in the eye on a number of occasions.

 

Quote

Evil doesn't really exist

It absolutely exists.  I have looked it in the eye on a number of occasions.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

They absolutely exist.  I have looked them in the eye on a number of occasions.

It absolutely exists.  I have looked it in the eye on a number of occasions.

Yeah, but we're not talking about @LDSGator.

[dprh]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

No, because the word "agree" has no meaning. There is no such thing as agreement. Also, "something" doesn't really exist.

Dude, I even admitted that there was a semantics issue.  I'll repeat my question.  Can you see a difference between feeling bad about doing something bad and feeling like you are bad?

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.  You pick one piece of my post, come up with extreme examples and extrapolate conclusions.  These are the types of responses that make this forum a less-than-welcoming place sometimes.  

Thanks for all the fish.

[estradling75]

I think one of the problems people are having with this message.... is that it is only half the message.  And only half the message no matter how well intention can cause problems for those that ignore, don't know, or think the other half does not apply any more because it was not talked about.

The message is also part of this weeks Come Follow me reading.  Its about not casting out people who want to fellowship with us... It is very much a commandment, and it is one that we some times struggle to follow. And we can fail this command in many different ways. So being reminded is good, so that is half the message that is being delivered.

The half that is missing is the fact that the command to not cast people out is not an absolute one.  Rather it is a conditional one.  Everyone has to meet the condition to not be cast out.  That condition is kind of important too, but it is not address with any words whatsoever. The condition is rather simple... its "earnestly seeking after the kingdom"

Now lets be clear its not a high bar, and thank goodness for that, otherwise many of us might be in trouble.  But the bar not being high is not the same as the bar not being set and its requirements not needing to be met.

Now for this Sister I think we can safely presume that she is "earnestly seeking after the kingdom."  But as a message to those struggling it is a incomplete one.  Yes you are welcome with whatever temptations and sins that you might struggle with, but you have to be willing to struggle with it.  This is true for everyone no matter their sexual orientation.  In her message of welcoming she utterly neglected the  Lord's conditions for that welcome.