Oaks - Red letter talk

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Every time I say something...it gets debated.

That’s not true!

 

 

 

 

😁

[laronius]

D&C 112:5 Contend thou, therefore, morning by morning; and day after day let thy warning voice go forth; and when the night cometh let not the inhabitants of the earth slumber, because of thy speech.

But

D&C 136:23 Cease to contend one with another; cease to speak evil one of another.

I think the fact that we are discussing these two talks (Pres Nelson's and Pres Oaks) in the same thread is actually quite complementary. Jesus spent His ministry contending for that which is right and good. He was even very forceful and blunt at times. But he never belittled, demeaned, or put down others. Did He level serious accusations at times? Yes, but He did so as their Omniscient Judge. 

In short, there is a righteous form of contending. Though I have personally found it very difficult to walk that line. Perhaps that is part of how charity never faileth.

[SilentOne]

I've always understood the problem with contending is when the ill will, lack of charity, and a focus on winning rather than communicating or learning come into it. A respectful debate is fine and standing up for the truth is sometimes necessary. Shades of meaning make a lot of difference in the counsel given.

[askandanswer]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

I also wonder if time spent on this forum might not be better utilized elsewhere. But I have the good sense never actually to say that out loud or write it down.

My time on this forum would be less well utilized if your contributions were not here.

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So....I dunno. It makes me feel inclined to spend less time here as well.

It was less than a month ago that @pamposted this under status of the forums:

2-3 years ago there was word that eventually the forums would be shut down as funding had been withdrawn.

Well good news. We are here to stay!!  So if you know anyone that might be interested in joining us or perhaps a member that hasn't been with us for awhile, let them know to come back and join us.

 

[askandanswer]

As @JustAGuyand @LDSGator recently reminded us, the First Counsellor in the First Presidency spent an important part of his working life presiding over contentions, both as judge and as BYU President. 

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, laronius said:

But he never belittled, demeaned, or put down others.

I'm not sure the Pharisees would agree.

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, laronius said:

Though I have personally found it very difficult to walk that line.

This.

I don't know that I can walk that line. It's a personal struggle. I'm not content making excuses on the matter. I do believe there is a line to be walked. I just cannot reconcile it currently in my own understanding of Pres. Nelson's words and my understanding. My inclination, and I believe rightly so, then is to lean not unto my own understanding.

Another way to put it...I think recycling, per my understanding, is a waste of time. I do not think crushing a plastic water bottle is helpful or useful to solve the problems with it. But....I believe there was an important point to that story (and it was not that we should all start crushing water bottles or we're going to hell).

Edited April 5, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Another way to put it...I think recycling, per my understanding, is a waste of time. I do not think crushing a plastic water bottle is helpful or useful to solve the problems with it.

Recycling is an interesting topic.  

Recycling metal seems like a no brainer.  Recycling wood products, paper, maybe some of it.  Toilet paper?  Most of the paper products are just filthy.

Recycling plastic, I’m not sure how well that is going.  Sometimes I wish the stuff had never been invented.

But I’ve been crushing soda cans, plastic bottles, milk container, etc for the past 40 years or so.
 

My family creates so much trash.  If we don’t crush the containers, the trash fills up so fast.  And I can’t tell you how many times I have taken out trash and had fluids leak all over the place - drives me crazy.  Just drop the liquids down the sink before you toss the container kids!

And it no doubt make work easier on the teams taking out and handling trash and recycling.

If you had worked or at least toured a recycling plant your (and my) insight might change.

Plenty of you tube videos to educate yourself with…

I know that President Nelson has toured a recycling plant.

Not going to save your soul.  But it will ease someone’s pain.  President Nelson is a better person than most people.

Just imagine what would happen if everyone picked up their trash.  

Throwing an uncapped hypodermic needle into the trash is criminal in my opinion.
 

Do the ocean plastic garbage patches upset you.  How about the micro-plastics that are now found in our seafood supply.

The plastic / paper straw debate drives me crazy.  I just take my drinks like a man (without a straw).

I can’t imagine people littering in the Celestial Kingdom.

Now, when I crush my containers, the wife won’t give me the ‘your crazy’ look.

Totally thankful for the story.

Edited April 5, 2023 by mikbone

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Not going to save your soul.  But it will ease someone’s pain.  President Nelson is a better person than most people.

Sure...but there's another way to look at it. By having someone else crush my cans and bottles for me I'm helping to provide more employment.

I mean I'm half joking...but half not.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Do the ocean plastic garbage patches upset you.  How about the micro-plastics that are now found in our seafood supply.

Sure. But pre-crushing my bottles and cans isn't going to solve these things. I'm all for recycling. I'm all for less plastics. Though places like China are the real problem. And as I understand it, most of what we put in the recycle bin doesn't actually get recycled. There's a broader, systematic problem. I still put things into recycling. But I have never crushed my soda cans. My wife does crush any 2-liter (plastic) soda bottles because, as you pointed out...the garbage fills up too fast. (Yes...we have a too-much-soda problem in our house.)

Don't get me wrong...I'll probably start crushing all my cans and bottles just to be on the safe side of following the prophet.

My point is simply that it's more complicated than anecdotes like the one given seem to make it out to be. If one takes the crushing bottle story to be about crushing bottles it breaks down pretty quickly. As I said, that's not the point of the story, imo.

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

President Nelson is a better person than most people.

I also don't think this is really the point. Can President Nelson be wrong? Sure. He's mortal. He's flawed. He makes logical mistakes. But he's the prophet. My stronger point is that whether he's right or wrong in any given thing is beyond the point.

Take, for example, the vaccination thing. There are people who I know who get legitimately angry every time they think about the statement given by the First Presidency on the Covid vaccination. "Everything they said is WRONG!" they'll claim.

And there may well be some evidence that some of what they said may be wrong. (I'm not claiming it is...I'm simply saying "may" be.)

But so what?! I got vaccinated based on their statement alone and I believe I made the right choice, even if the end result kills me. I still don't trust the vaccination. I still think it's mostly politics.

Heck...a better example...the mask wearing. Stupid. Stupid, stupid, STUPID! (I believe it was you who provided the study on masks showing how they did nothing to curb Covid.)

And yet....President Nelson wore the mask. And in my area we were asked to wear masks to church. I still believe it was stupid. It is stupid. STUPID!

But I wore a mask to church until they said it was no longer required.

It doesn't matter if President Nelson is right or wrong to have worn the mask. It doesn't matter if my Area Presidency was right or wrong to request we wear masks to church. Because my only objective in life is to live seeking God in humility and obedience. It's not science. It's not saving the planet. It's not learning. It's not being clever. It's not out reasoning others. It's to humble myself and obey. All the other stuff has it's place. And they all tie into obedience and humility. But they are not the key. As soon as we put our reasoning above humility and obedience we're stepping away from what our priority should be.

So I'm not simply criticizing the crushing of water bottles. I only point out that it's more complicated (to my thinking and understanding) than what it seems in order to make the point that the fact that any given thing doesn't make sense to me and my reasoning is not very profound in the grand scheme of things.

Edited April 5, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Recycling is an interesting topic.  

Recycling metal seems like a no brainer.  Recycling wood products, paper, maybe some of it.  Toilet paper?  Most of the paper products are just filthy.

Recycling plastic, I’m not sure how well that is going.  Sometimes I wish the stuff had never been invented.

But I’ve been crushing soda cans, plastic bottles, milk container, etc for the past 40 years or so.
 

My family creates so much trash.  If we don’t crush the containers, the trash fills up so fast.  And I can’t tell you how many times I have taken out trash and had fluids leak all over the place - drives me crazy.  Just drop the liquids down the sink before you toss the container kids!

And it no doubt make work easier on the teams taking out and handling trash and recycling.

If you had worked or at least toured a recycling plant your (and my) insight might change.

Plenty of you tube videos to educate yourself with…

I know that President Nelson has toured a recycling plant.

Not going to save your soul.  But it will ease someone’s pain.  President Nelson is a better person than most people.

Just imagine what would happen if everyone picked up their trash.  

Throwing an uncapped hypodermic needle into the trash is criminal in my opinion.
 

Do the ocean plastic garbage patches upset you.  How about the micro-plastics that are now found in our seafood supply.

The plastic / paper straw debate drives me crazy.  I just take my drinks like a man (without a straw).

I can’t imagine people littering in the Celestial Kingdom.

Now, when I crush my containers, the wife won’t give me the ‘your crazy’ look.

Totally thankful for the story.

I am one that believes that everything that has been created is useful.  The Book of Enoch suggests that stars recycle all things, making corrupted elements clean and pure.  I personally believe that we should not think of anything as garbage – but we also do not need to make everything political.  There is a process that can convert our plastic materials into diesel fuel, and this can be done using a solar furnace.   There is no reason to have a garbage landfill other than it is easier and more convenient.

We have become a replace and through away society rather than a fix and recycle of previous generations.  I suspect that as the Saints prepare for and start living in the millennium that we will become master of recycling.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 5, 2023 by Traveler

[zil2]

Quoting @laronius, but really replying to all on the general topic of contending and contention...

10 hours ago, laronius said:

D&C 112:5 Contend thou, therefore, morning by morning; and day after day let thy warning voice go forth; and when the night cometh let not the inhabitants of the earth slumber, because of thy speech.

But

D&C 136:23 Cease to contend one with another; cease to speak evil one of another.

I decided to go exploring in scripture.

"Contend" (by people, as opposed to the Lord) is presented in a positive manner in these contexts:

• contend with the wicked
• contend for the faith (against those actively trying to undermine it)
• contending against the church of the devil

And in a negative manner in these contexts:

• complaining about the prophet doing something the not-prophet believed to be wrong
• contending against the Holy Ghost (resisting its influence)
• contending against the word of the Lord
• contending against any church other than the church of the devil
• members of the church contending with each other

And then there's contention. While searching for anything good said about contention, I'll make some notes about all the bad things said about it:

• Synonyms / related: strife, confusion, darkness, disputation, false doctrine, hardheartedness, war, quarrel, etc.
• Causes: pride (defined as sole source), fools enter into it, scorners, drunkenness, those who like to "feed the fire", envy, hatred, politics, secret combinations, Satan
• Resist it by: being slow to anger, separating from those with whom you can't come to terms, patience, being one, avoiding it, the Holy Ghost, charity, dealing justly, the gospel, forgiveness

I found nothing good said about contention.

It would seem that contention is to contend with anger:

Quote

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

So, there are good ways in which you can contend, but the second anger enters into it, now you've invited Satan to join you.

Now, if anyone who finds it difficult to contend without anger wishes to explore why that is, I'm game.  It might help all of us to have even better discussions going forward.  But there's no point in me yammering on about why some folks have a hard time contending without contention, so unless someone else wants to explore this aspect, I'll let the above stand.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

But I’ve been crushing soda cans, plastic bottles, milk container, etc for the past 40 years or so.

Fun story: My dad was a beer drinking cussing swearing crotchety old WWII democrat veteran.  One of my early chores was helping him save and crush beer cans.  He had me use the 8 lb sledgehammer to crush them as soon as I was strong enough to hold it, and then when I got a little older, he took the hammer away and made me crush them with my feet.  So in the early '80's when my Cub Scout troop went on an aluminum can drive, I was overjoyed to bring 'em all over to my house to collect several garbage cans worth of crushed cans - it would easily multiply the success of our drive by 10X or more, and the cans were already crushed so we could fit everything into the back of the scoutmaster's '79 Celica. 

I was so excited to be such an important part of the fundraiser.  The scouts showed up all excited, and immediately everything got somber and awkward as the smell of stale beer hit, and everyone realized they weren't soda cans, but containers that once held the devil's ale.  We spent a quiet and unenthusiastic few minutes of gathering cans into bags.  The scoutmaster halfheartedly urged the scouts past their complaints of "this smells funny" and "I don't think we're supposed to take these" and "are these even aluminum?".   Eventually, trying his best to disguise his disdain at the prospect of having his car smell like beer, told everyone "ok, I think we've got enough", and left with maybe 20% of the available total.  They didn't take me with them.  After they left, my dad was mad at me for giving away his beer cans without asking.

Looking back, that event sort of set the tone for the next 10 years of my life.  And it didn't even dawn on me until my mid-'20's what had actually happened.  All I knew was the kids at church never really accepted me after that, my dad was bitter and mad at mormons for "acting better than regular folk" after that, and I felt like I had done something wrong, but I didn't know what.  The unresolved emotional baggage absolutely paved the way to my 6 years of inactivity.  To date, this is near the top of my most emotionally traumatizing experiences, and when I heard the plastic water bottle crushing story in conference, it's about the closest I've ever come to having something resembling a PTSD flashback.  I got this dark depressed feeling, and had to spend a few seconds wondering why I was reacting darkly to a story about Pres. Nelson crushing a water bottle.  Then it was "oh jeez - that old thing still bugs me? daaaang!"

All that said - what brought me back to the church wasn't the humans or fellowshipping or service opportunities, it was the plain simple truths and universal principles like we heard in the Oaks talk.

 

[NeuroTypical]

3 minutes ago, zil2 said:

But there's no point in me yammering on about why some folks have a hard time contending without contention, so unless someone else wants to explore this aspect, I'll let the above stand.

I'm with you @zil2, I wish it was more widely understood.  Football teams contend against each other in the spirit of friendly competition.  The spirit of contention results in vandalizing goal posts, getting into fights, stealing trophies, etc.  

[mikbone]

36 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Don't get me wrong...I'll probably start crushing all my cans and bottles just to be on the safe side of following the prophet.

Here is the beauty of the lesson.

President Nelson wasn’t making a new commandment, rule, or even a suggestion.

But Oaks and Eyring have been so positively conditioned to follow the prophet that they naturally followed suit.

AND Eyring #3 in the entire church followed the example WRONG.   Its OK to make mistakes. It’s ok to not have insight.  Its ok to be taught simple things in front of you inferiors.  I could go on and on.

President Nelson didn’t make a fuss.  He just taught Eyring how to do it correctly.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Heck...a better example...the mask wearing. Stupid. Stupid, stupid, STUPID! (I believe it was you who provided the study on masks showing how they did nothing to curb Covid.)

I totally enjoyed Home Church for a year.  And masking makes total sense for the immune compromised (like many of the aged members of the local ward).  

Schools though…  Driving in your car - by yourself.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, mikbone said:

And masking makes total sense for the immune compromised (like many of the aged members of the local ward).

How does it make sense? Do you have the study to show that?

I mean I'm not really asking because I don't really want to debate. It's just... here's the thing. It makes sense to me that some masks make some sense IF they're worn and used properly. But pulling the masks down to take the sacrament is NOT using them properly and immediately negates any sense in wearing them. That's to my thinking.

Staying home, of course, makes more sense.

But it didn't make sense for me and my family...or anyone with small children -- who put everything into their mouths and constantly pull masks off faces.

I'm sorry...but if there are Covid germs on the benches, my kids are picking them up and passing them to me. There's no getting around it, mask or no mask. And if we have Covid...I'm sorry, but my kids are picking it up from me and then smearing it all over the benches. There's no getting around it, mask or no mask.

And if the immune compromised and aged walk past said bench, touching it with their hands as they do, and then head home, pulling off their masks, having not thoroughly washed their hands, etc., before doing so...guess what? How many people, even of those who are "immune compromised" wore their masks correctly and followed correct and safe procedures to give them any level of efficacy?

Everyone I know...and I'd dare bet EVERYONE pulled their same-old, used, mask out of their pocket when walking into whatever building, then pulled it back off when exiting, having touched everything as normal within whatever establishment...doors, sacrament trays, benches, etc.... and then stuff the mask back in their pockets to do the same the next time they enter any establishment. Even the fanatical leftist "we're all gonna die" types basically did this...though they'd wear the masks in the car ride home too, perhaps. I would dare bet the few legit OCD-ish behavior required to make full time mask wearing useful at all was extremely, extremely rare.

I dunno. I'm not sure there's a way to really know...but I'd dare bet the total number of people who didn't get sick or die because they wore masks was a grand total of....zero.

So our wearing masks to church was one of two things. Obedience -- or virtue signaling. I chose the former at the expense of feeling like I was expressing the latter.

But I accept that I could be wrong. I think what I think. I think masks are stupid. I hate everything about the nonsense cultural sheep-like response the whole world had to the "pandemic". But I still wore the mask to church because I was asked to.

[mikbone]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I dunno. I'm not sure there's a way to really know...but I'd dare bet the total number of people who didn't get sick or die because they wore masks was a grand total of....zero.

It’s damn hard to get approval for testing on people who are immune compromised.  They are more likely to get infected and have a much higher rate of complications / mortality.

If one of the elderly in my ward had died from COVID after catching it in my ward I would have felt terrible.

I’m sure if I had been at the helm, I would have been cautious.

Luckily for everyone, Im not at the helm…

Edited April 5, 2023 by mikbone

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm with you @zil2, I wish it was more widely understood.  Football teams contend against each other in the spirit of friendly competition.  The spirit of contention results in vandalizing goal posts, getting into fights, stealing trophies, etc.  

So I think where I struggle a bit more is where President Nelson says in the same talk that he doesn't mean peace at any cost, but then also says contention is never right.

But what else would one call Captain Moroni's actions if not contentious?

It seems like there are semantics at play here that have not been clarified. And it leaves me floundering a bit. Are we meant to be as Captain Moroni, or not? When the king men contend for the governance, should they be put to death, or not?

I mean this is the problem. A lot of us have been raised believing the Book of Mormon was written for our day, and that means that the examples therein are to help us navigate these times...that we should behave as Captain Moroni and Alma and the like. I mean a good portion of the Book of Mormon is dedicated to these conflicts. And we're specifically warned against secret combinations, and calling them out, and not letting them take root, etc.

But then, it seems to me, that President Nelson is telling us...nope....never... that's not the way. Don't do it.

And it seems problematic to me to narrowly define contention as only doing so with anger (sorry @zil2. Not meaning to be contentious....). I have very, very rarely typed a thing on this forum, for example, in anger. But I have very obviously been very engaged in contention. The idea that if two people go back and forth at each other saying, "You're wrong." "No, you're wrong." "No. You're wrong" and so forth, but do so without anger that it isn't contention doesn't work for me. Sure...anger makes it worse. But whether I'm mad or not, telling others that they're wrong all the time is clearly against the counsel President Nelson gave.

So I have to swallow a lifetime of perception and understanding based on my scriptures study.

I accept that. I don't deny President Nelson is right. I am determined. I will follow. But I guess I'll complain about my confusion a bit too.  

But really...I don't actually believe never being like Captain Moroni is the correct answer. Somehow the two ideas need to be reconciled in my mind. I haven't yet been able to reconcile them.

but I'm not so far off as I was a few years back.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I’m sure if I had been at the helm, I would have been cautious.

Why aren't masks required every flu season then?

The extra "caution" around Covid was political theater. Sure...not at first. We didn't know at first. Everyone was floundering. Two years later where I'm still required to wear a mask at the doctor's office....theater.

Haha. Sorry...I'm really not meaning to argue. I get that leadership of organizations like the church would take the more conservative cautious approach. That wasn't my point.

I, obviously, have some bitterness about masks. But that's really beyond the point of what we were discussing...which to my thinking was choosing to follow the prophet even if and when he may not be entirely accurate in any given thing. We may not agree whether he was accurate in his mask wearing or not. But can we agree that there might be cases where he isn't entirely accurate in some given thing or another, and that even in those cases we should follow him regardless? The specific masks example was used because I thought you were of a like mind on masks. If you're not, the we can let that go as the example. It's not important.

[mikbone]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The specific masks example was used because I thought you were of a like mind on masks. If you're not, the we can let that go as the example. It's not important.

Oh, I am of like mind.  We still don’t know the details of COVID science.  There will be scientific studies rolling in for the next decade.

They finally lifted the mask mandate at my hospital this week.  What a relief.

[zil2]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

sorry @zil2. Not meaning to be contentious....

But I'm not so sure it isn't as simple as:

1. Whether anger is involved

2. Against whom or what you are contending

3. To what end / for what reason are you contending

I suspect that exploring one's own answers to these, or exploring the possible answers to these as a group, might help.  And yeah, it might come down to a fine line.  If I go back to what I learned in scripture:

• It's OK to contend against the wicked, for the faith.

The end.  That's it.  That's the only kind of contending allowed.  But I'm not allowed to do it in anger.  Exploring the why of that may also be useful.

(I wish to say that I have fairly recent experience with this:

Quote

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

... not as one of the contenders but as someone present at the time and I tell you, I felt the Spirit leave and devils arrive rejoicing.  In worldly terms, the tension in the place skyrocketed, became palpable and oppressive.  But I knew full well what that meant on a spiritual level.  We should avoid it like the plague.)

[The Folk Prophet]

21 minutes ago, zil2 said:

1. Whether anger is involved

What about righteous anger?

21 minutes ago, zil2 said:

2. Against whom or what you are contending

Per my understanding (as best I can recall at the moment), Pres. Nelson seemed to be suggesting that the more evil the person or thing, the more important it was to deal without contention. I'll have to review his talk again. But that seemed to be part of it. The more wicked the world, the more important it is for us to approach it without contention. I do not understand the why of this, but it seemed to be part of his point.

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

3. To what end / for what reason are you contending

I suspect that exploring one's own answers to these, or exploring the possible answers to these as a group, might help.  And yeah, it might come down to a fine line.  If I go back to what I learned in scripture:

• It's OK to contend against the wicked, for the faith.

The end.  That's it.  That's the only kind of contending allowed.  But I'm not allowed to do it in anger.  Exploring the why of that may also be useful.

I do think it's useful to consider the difference between "contending" and being "contentious". It's the how that seems to matter. We need to contend against wickedness and for goodness but without doing so contentiously. There is a distinct definitional difference.

[The Folk Prophet]

The 2nd to last phrase in Pres Nelson's talk:

"I bless you to replace belligerence with beseeching, animosity with understanding, and contention with peace."

I think I must ponder on this sentence some more.

[NeuroTypical]

28 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What about righteous anger?

That's an excellent and valid question, and one I don't have an easy answer for.  I suppose if I ever actually feel it, I might have more insight.  But over my decades, every single time I've felt what I believe to be righteous anger, it doesn't stand up to 30 seconds of scrutiny.

The catch always seems to be: It can't be righteous if you're breaking two big important commandments in order to be angry.  The 2nd great commandment of Love thy Neighbor, and D&C 64:10's admonition to Forgive all Men, always seem to be getting in the way when I'm thinking I'm righteously angry.

I've learned what it means to have love and forgiveness, and react emotionally to the bad guys and evil deeds I've encountered.  That one time I confronted a rapist.  That one time I confronted the guy who had just sent my family to the hospital by crashing into their car.  The times I've interacted with people openly mocking temple practices, or other things I hold sacred.  The handful of times I have been specifically targeted by people who have been intentionally and willfully cruel or hurtful, who actually were trying to hurt me.  Those times I had to deal with people who refused to protect their daughter from child sexual abuse, and told her she needed to forgive and forget and stop talking about it.

Again, I know all about being angry when I'm lacking love and forgiveness.  Sometimes that's my default, actually.  But I've never felt angry at the times I've managed to carry those two things with me.  Honestly, I'd be tickled pink if I never have to encounter something that makes me righteously angry - where I'm looking at someone with love and forgiveness, and I'm still mad as hell.  I can't even conceive what it would look like - how can you have hell in you and be righteous?  It's right there in the name!

Edited April 5, 2023 by NeuroTypical