Adam, the fruit and the cursing

[askandanswer]

After Adam ate the fruit, was the ground cursed for something it had no responsibility for?

[mikbone]

Moses 4:23–25. “Cursed Shall Be the Ground for Thy Sake”

President Marion G. Romney (1897–1988) of the First Presidency taught: “Note that the curse was not placed upon Adam, but upon the ground for Adam’s sake. Rather than a curse upon Adam, it was a blessing to him” (“In Mine Own Way,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, 125).

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

After Adam ate the fruit, was the ground cursed for something it had no responsibility for?

What...are you worried about the ground's feelings?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

After Adam ate the fruit, was the ground cursed for something it had no responsibility for?

Adam did have dominion, so whatever the personal consequences of his decisions, his stewardship would be likewise affected. It was cursed for his sake, but just as Adam's conscience was struck, allowing the Atonement of Christ to operate and reverse it into joy, the difficulties with the stewardship in a fallen (cursed) world allowed the blessings of hard work, and the disappointment in failed efforts, to be part of his learning and perfection in the Lord.

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

What...are you worried about the ground's feelings?

I'm worried about the justice of God. If the Earth was innocent of any wrong doing it seems, from what we know, that it might be unfair for it to have to endure a cursing from God. 

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm worried about the justice of God. If the Earth was innocent of any wrong doing it seems, from what we know, that it might be unfair for it to have to endure a cursing from God. 

Right. You do realize you're talking about dirt?

Edited April 6, 2023 by The Folk Prophet

[mikbone]

10 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm worried about the justice of God. If the Earth was innocent of any wrong doing it seems, from what we know, that it might be unfair for it to have to endure a cursing from God. 

How about Theia?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant-impact_hypothesis

Pretty sure Man is barely a nuisance in comparison.

[askandanswer]

Lol, yes, but apparently dirt that feels and talks

48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the ^aearth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am ^bpained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I ^crest, and be ^dcleansed from the ^efilthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I'm worried about the justice of God. If the Earth was innocent of any wrong doing it seems, from what we know, that it might be unfair for it to have to endure a cursing from God. 

We can say this about any "infuriating unfairness" -- Infuriating Unfairness (churchofjesuschrist.org)

Since we are descendants of Adam and Eve, the same thing could be said about us, who carry the cursed earth in our bodies, in that we are of the dust of the earth and have become mortal and separated from God. But of course, we understand the bigger picture from the plan of salvation. Adam yet finds joy in his covenant-keeping posterity, despite the curse upon the earth, which also brings forth metaphorical thorns, thistles, herbs, wheat, tares, etc. in the descendants of Adam according to our exercise of agency.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Lol, yes, but apparently dirt that feels and talks

48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the ^aearth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am ^bpained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I ^crest, and be ^dcleansed from the ^efilthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

I've sometimes considered this "voice from the bowels" of the earth to be Eve speaking as the dead mother of the mortal human race, prior to the resurrection of Christ and her subsequent resurrection.

[pam]

Copying from one of my favorites resources:

All of God's actions are for our benefit.  On the surface, the curse on the land would seem to have no redeeming value.  No longer would the earth produce beautiful foliage spontaneously.  Weeds would be the default pathway.  As Gordon B. Hinckley stated, "Without hard work, nothing grows but weeds." (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 707)  James E. Talmage wrote:

Adam felt directly the effects of transgression in finding a barren and dreary earth, with a relatively sterile soil, instead of the beauty and fruitfulness of Eden. In place of pleasing and useful plants, thorns and thistles sprang up; and the man had to labor arduously, under the conditions of physical fatigue and suffering, to cultivate the soil that he might obtain necessary food. (Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 61)

But working the soil of the earth would be a blessing to Adam and to his posterity.  The toil itself has a redemptive quality. Work is good for the soul.  We are commanded to work because it is good for us.  This part of the 4^th commandment is often overlooked, for we are commanded to work as much as we are commanded to rest, "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work." (Ex. 20:9)

"The Lord did not curse Adam. He cursed the earth 'for thy sake.' Through the ages man has received more than bread through the sweat of his face. He has received happiness.

"Bismarck, the powerful Prussian statesman, once said: 'To youth I have but three words of counsel: work, work, work.'" (Wendell J. Ashton, "The Sweetness of Sweat," Ensign, July 1971, 35)

 

[laronius]

10 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I'm worried about the justice of God. If the Earth was innocent of any wrong doing it seems, from what we know, that it might be unfair for it to have to endure a cursing from God. 

Just as man needed to fall from the Terrestrial in order to become Celestial so too did the earth need to fall for the same reason.

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, laronius said:

Just as man needed to fall from the Terrestrial in order to become Celestial so too did the earth need to fall for the same reason.

Hmm, could you elaborate a little more on this please? My initial thought was to protest your answer by saying that the Earth did nothing wrong, as far as we know, so it did nothing to deserve a fall. 

[pam]

7 hours ago, laronius said:

Just as man needed to fall from the Terrestrial in order to become Celestial so too did the earth need to fall for the same reason.

I've learned this as well somewhere along the way.  One of the reasons I'm assuming that one of our Articles of Faith state that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

[laronius]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Hmm, could you elaborate a little more on this please? My initial thought was to protest your answer by saying that the Earth did nothing wrong, as far as we know, so it did nothing to deserve a fall. 

Brigham Young taught: "The earth will abide its creation, and will be counted worthy of receiving the blessings designed for it, and will ultimately roll back into the presence of God who formed it..."

I don't know that full understanding of this doctrine has been revealed but the earth apparently needs to progress as we do. Creation, fall, baptism, purified by fire, terrestrialized and finally brought back into God's presence as a Celestial "being."

In Abraham's account of the creation the earth is presented as something with intelligence:

Abraham 4:18 And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

So while the earth may not have done anything wrong per say it is still progressing and the fall is part of that process. Perhaps things celestial cannot be created. Agency is required and celestial law obeyed.

Edited April 7, 2023 by laronius

[Traveler]

It is interesting to me that there are no indications that another planet exist similar to earth that is likewise full of an abundance of life (as we know it).  Often science speaks of “life as we know it”.  Life as we know it is very fragile and has great difficulty surviving anywhere in this universe.  Even here on earth where life is so abundant, 99.9% of all species have gone extinct.  For the most part science has given up on the origins of life on earth taking place here on earth – assuming it more likely that life’s beginnings are from somewhere else in our vast cosmos.

I have come to believe that all blessings are benedictions that come from G-d.  When curses or maledictions are spoken of – I believe that such is nothing more than a lack of or absence of blessings and benedictions from G-d.  From the Book of Mormon, we learn that every breath we take is because of G-d's blessings and benedictions that are given to us.  I have concluded that the notion that the ground is cursed is, in reality, that the blessings given are limited or not entirely Celestially divine and yet we are still 100% reliant for our survival on what blessings and benedictions that are given.  Therefore, we exist as fallen creatures entirely dependent on G-d’s merciful blessings that he does dispose of for our behalf.

I believe that thinking in terms of maledictions and cursings is not accurate for what many are thinking.  Rather, I believe that we should understand what is explained in Genesis as a covenant that G-d made with man leaving Eden and coming into the loan and dreary world that was specifically prepared and ready with the necessary blessings for mankind in their fallen and mortal state.  That earth will torment mankind and that only with toil, great effort and care will mankind survive and continue.  In short, we must be involved and invested with G-d to prosper in our generations in order that we and our seed can endure.  Seed being symbolic of both our caring for our environment as well as our children.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

The planet earth is not a daughter of God, not in the sense that you and I are sons and daughters of God. So far as I can determine, and despite the single scriptural and seemingly poetic account of the earth groaning, there is not the least indication that the earth is a sentient being with desires, goals, and personhood. It is a thing to be acted upon, not a thing to act. It's a planet, not a sister, except perhaps in the way that the animals and insects and woods and trees and bushes and all that creep on and under the earth and dance upon it and soar in the heavens above it and swim in the seas and wheel overhead in the heavens are all, along with us, co-creations of our Father—and thus, in this large and inclusive and determinedly figurative sense, are our brothers and sisters.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Vort

[askandanswer]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:31 AM, Vort said:

So far as I can determine, and despite the single scriptural and seemingly poetic account of the earth groaning, there is not the least indication that the earth is a sentient being with desires, goals, and personhood. It is a thing to be acted upon, not a thing to act.

I suspect that everything that God made has a degree, or a type, of agency, but I'm not sure if that is enough to also give them a degree, or type, of personhood. 

[popatr]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:01 AM, Vort said:

The planet earth is not a daughter of God, not in the sense that you and I are sons and daughters of God. So far as I can determine, and despite the single scriptural and seemingly poetic account of the earth groaning, there is not the least indication that the earth is a sentient being with desires, goals, and personhood. It is a thing to be acted upon, not a thing to act. It's a planet, not a sister, except perhaps in the way that the animals and insects and woods and trees and bushes and all that creep on and under the earth and dance upon it and soar in the heavens above it and swim in the seas and wheel overhead in the heavens are all, along with us, co-creations of our Father—and thus, in this large and inclusive and determinedly figurative sense, are our brothers and sisters.

Not just one the one, here's another:

Luke 19:40

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

 

That said, both do sound poetic but maybe that's because we just are reluctant to believe it's literal.

As for me, I tentatively accept the spiritual sentience of the earth;   Moses 3 speaks of a spiritual creation before temporal and I have accepted this includes the earth too.

Edited April 9, 2023 by popatr

[Traveler]

15 hours ago, popatr said:

Not just one the one, here's another:

Luke 19:40

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

 

That said, both do sound poetic but maybe that's because we just are reluctant to believe it's literal.

As for me, I tentatively accept the spiritual sentience of the earth;   Moses 3 speaks of a spiritual creation before temporal and I have accepted this includes the earth too.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:30

Quote

All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 

I have pondered that there is intelligence (spirit) in all things (physical matter).  Perhaps this is why 95% of the universe cannot be explained and thus the reason that science has defined “Dark Matter” and “Dark Energy”.  Intelligence (spirit) is a most difficult commodity to quantify or measure scientifically.  Perhaps the earth is far more intelligent and capable than what we quantify scientifically – thinking that it is incapable to act and is only acted upon.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:30

 

I have pondered that there is intelligence (spirit) in all things (physical matter).  Perhaps this is why 95% of the universe cannot be explained and thus the reason that science has defined “Dark Matter” and “Dark Energy”.  Intelligence (spirit) is a most difficult commodity to quantify or measure scientifically.  Perhaps the earth is far more intelligent and capable than what we quantify scientifically – thinking that it is incapable to act and is only acted upon.

 

The Traveler

Working backward from D&C 93:30, existence is intelligence that acts for itself within the sphere God placed it.

30 All truth is independent in that ^asphere in which God has placed it, to ^bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 

[romans8]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:14 AM, Traveler said:

It is interesting to me that there are no indications that another planet exist similar to earth that is likewise full of an abundance of life (as we know it). 

The church does teach this as truth however.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/06/christ-and-the-creation.p2?lang=eng#p2

Christ is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds so numerous that they cannot be numbered by man. 
As to his infinite and eternal creative and redemptive enterprises the divine word attests: 
“And worlds without number have I created,” saith the Father, “and I also created them for mine 
own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. … But only an account 
of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” As to all of the other worlds of 
the Lord’s creating we know only that it is his work and his glory “to bring to pass”—through the 
Redeemer—“the immortality and eternal life” of all their inhabitants. (Moses 1:33, 35, 39.)

In what is probably the most glorious vision given to mortals in this dispensation, Joseph Smith 
and Sidney Rigdon saw “the Son, on the right hand of the Father,” and “heard the voice bearing 
record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—That by him, and through him, and of him, the 
worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto 
God.” (D&C 76:20, 23–24.) Christ is thus the Creator and the Redeemer. By him the worlds were 
made, and through his infinite atonement the inhabitants of those worlds are adopted into the 
divine family as heirs with himself.

Edited April 22, 2023 by romans8

[romans8]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:06 PM, pam said:

All of God's actions are for our benefit.  On the surface, the curse on the land would seem to have no redeeming value.

From what I have seen, the curse is much more universal.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual-2018/the-book-of-moses/moses-4-20-32?lang=eng
Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth;  and it came
upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining
to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-3-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng
But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
sins.