The young people these days just don't have any work ethic

[Backroads]

Most of the family has been sick and afflicted this week, leaving Husband to call off the classes he's teaching for the second day in a row. I asked him (out of curiosity, not money, he worked security at a certain big festival this last weekend) how that works as far as PTO or making up hours and he pretty much looked at me like he was crazy. He explained he's not going into work because if he is seen coughing and sneezing suddenly everyone will conveniently call in sick. He also has a funny rotating work schedule that makes it easy to hide enough that he's not there and will handle making up the hours later. More or less suggesting that PTO is for the weak.

Me, on another part of the spectrum, finds PTO to be a perfectly acceptable part of modern-day work compensation, mostly under the opinion that a potential employee with enough skills is likely going to have a choice of who he gives his time and labor to, so the employer who wants to keep people around will likely offer PTO and stuff. I also fully believe that an employer should not offer PTO he doesn't want employees actually using. In fact, I used PTO last week to traumatize  my kids  myself at the movies. Why? Because I wanted to and it was use-it-or-lose-it by the end of the school year. 

Furthermore, as an employee, I am happy enough to use any PTO given to me prudently and with respect to my team as best as I can in relation to my own needs, but I'm probably going to use it. 

Husband remains more on the side of "but this is the company and this is what you're being paid to do, so get to work!" Which I respect and largely agree with, but with still pointing to the above issue of "you still got to make sure they don't go elsewhere if the opportunity arises if you actually want to keep them".

Yet, I also think some companies seem to go overboard on all that fun whimsical stuff like unlimited PTO. A friend of mine, before saying forget it and becoming a stay-at-home mom, worked for a company that paid horribly but tried to make up for it by being cool and trendy and giving away lots of snacks and swag. Eventually she decided to let her husband pay all the bills instead instead of commuting an hour for energy drinks and chips. She still says a better no-nonsense paycheck would have possibly made the difference, particularly when she found they had to hire three people to do her job, so it cost them some money to lose her. 

My point is that overly fancy PTO options could fall into that category of "I'd like it more if you just paid me". 

I also admit I'm in a cushy position. I feel there's two main categories of work-sick: you're legitimately and horribly sick, or you're "socially unacceptable sick". The latter is on a spectrum depending on your work conditions, but I honestly use most of my proper sick leave for my daughter's hours-long doctor's appointments or when a sick kids really needs me. I think there was exactly two days in the past two years where I was too sick to cohesively community over a computer or just do the boring clerical side of my job. The "socially unacceptable sick" just doesn't really apply to me when I work from home.

So, I'm not exactly sure where I stand. I think in many ways some work places have become too cushy in retaining employees. With the work options so theoretically available these days, that may have some level of necessity, but where does it end?

 

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Backroads said:

The young people these days just don't have any work ethic

Just when did you become an old man?

[scottyg]

Having some PTO is of course necessary for those unexpected life events, but for the most part I would just prefer it if I was paid a bit more. I have my PTO and sick time hours maxed out, and now have to take a day off every pay period or else I just lose out on those free hours.

On the flip side, I also work with a lady who never has PTO hours stored in her "bank"...as she uses them all up every week for some kind of "fun activity", and always complains that we aren't given more time off from work...yet she hasn't worked a full 80 hours in a pay period since she joined the company. That behavior will hurt her if she ever really needs to take an extended leave of absence from work, and doesn't have the hours to do so. (she also doesn't contribute anything to retirement as she is one of those people with a "have fun now" and/or FOMO mentality)

[Backroads]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Just when did you become an old man?

Probably about five years ago.

[NeuroTypical]

My work gives "Flexible time off", which I think is the same thing as "paid time off".  The longer you stay with the company, the more you get.  Use it for whatever you want, sick, fun, lazy, it doesn't matter.  Just work with your manager to handle your workload, so you're not making life hard for others.  If you're truly sick then we'll do our best.  We've got a lot of ability to do things remotely, so 'working while sick' is a thing, and people bank their time off.  Been here 15 years, and I've started getting the emails stating "you're at your pto cap, better use some if you want to keep earning more".

I don't understand unlimited PTO, but I guess I could see it working in practice as long as "you're fired for not getting your work done" is a thing.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[askandanswer]

I work in an area that is significantly affected by workplace shortages. My place of employment signed a new Enterprise Agreement with its staff a few months back. About 62% of staff voted in favour of the new agreement. One of its main features is the expansion of reasons for which paid leave could be granted. Amongst other things the list now includes Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

 

 

 

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I work in an area that is significantly affected by workplace shortages. My place of employment signed a new Enterprise Agreement with its staff a few months back. About 62% of staff voted in favour of the new agreement. One of its main features is the expansion of reasons for which paid leave could be granted. Amongst other things the list now includes Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

I suppose we'll have to use #54 for this:

 

[NeuroTypical]

17 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

First Nations People Leave.

I'm assuming this is "my tribe is having an important ceremony and I need to be there".

I'm assuming this is NOT "Sorry, can't work today, I'm an Indian."

[NeuroTypical]

5 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I suppose we'll have to use #54 for this:

Or,

[Guest Godless]

Higher salary or more PTO?

 

If you die tomorrow, your employer will replace you before you're in the ground. I definitely appreciate a good work ethic, I like to think that I have a good one, but no job is worth working yourself into the ground for no other reason than "work ethic". Work-life balance is important, and a combination of good pay and plentiful PTO can go along way to help achieve that.

Also, apparently this dynamic between employers and "workers" (an interesting choice of term in the below anecdote) is nothing new.

[askandanswer]

28 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm assuming this is "my tribe is having an important ceremony and I need to be there".

I'm assuming this is NOT "Sorry, can't work today, I'm an Indian."

Yes, often related to funerals, known as "sorry business" but sometimes related to initiations, corroborees and marking of important dates. The duration of these occasions varies considerably. 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I work in an area that is significantly affected by workplace shortages. My place of employment signed a new Enterprise Agreement with its staff a few months back. About 62% of staff voted in favour of the new agreement. One of its main features is the expansion of reasons for which paid leave could be granted. Amongst other things the list now includes Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

If I worked there, I would be sure to take full advantage of Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

If I worked there, I would be sure to take full advantage of Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

Why not domestic violence leave, too? "HR? Yeah, my wife and I have a serious fight planned for the first week of July..."

[Guest Godless]

Another note on this topic: Minnesota recently passed a law mandating Paid Family Medical Leave, making it the 13th state to do so. 

[Carborendum]

19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Amongst other things the list now includes Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

This is a recipe for bankruptcy.

[Carborendum]

20 hours ago, Godless said:

Work-life balance is important, and a combination of good pay and plentiful PTO can go along way to help achieve that.

I agree with the general idea here.  But I wanted to weigh in on the use of the phrase "work-life" balance that has changed emphasis over the years. 

Yes, I understand the cultural meaning that the phrase originally meant to convey.  But it has now become a phrase to mean that work and life are two different things. 

No, life is all you have.  And work is a part of life.  This is something many people don't get.  I would say this is an epidemic in the rising generation.  But I realize that many in my generation also suffer from it.

People only see work as a means of making money for our survival.  While that is one very important aspect of work, there are other very important aspects of work.  And we need work to have a happy healthy life.  People don't know this anymore.  I don't know when it happened. And I don't know why it happened.  But I recognize that it did happen. 

If we also realize that work is part of what we do to make life fulfilling, then we'd welcome work. For so many people, we are defined by our professions.  As we get to know each other, one of the first things we ask is "What do you do for a living?"  This is not only a good conversation starter because it can be a wealth of further conversation, but it also gives us some idea (whether accurate or not) of the nature of the person we're dealing with.  

We also realize that work can be the most common and practical way of serving our fellow men.  People need houses to live in.  So, if I'm a construction worker, I can look at my job as helping people have a place to call home.  Or I can look at it as making $40/hr to hammer nails into wood.

The same activity, different outcomes in the worker and the product.

My son is saving up for his mission by working at Jimmy John's making sandwiches.  He has it in his mind that every sandwich he makes will be a burst of flavor and nourishment for the customer.  He has been given several raises ahead of schedule because he does his job so well and also uplifts the people around him.  This wouldn't have happened if he did it just for a paycheck.

Work is not just a necessary evil.  It is a part of our lives that we need to value.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[scottyg]

22 hours ago, Godless said:

Higher salary or more PTO?

 

If you die tomorrow, your employer will replace you before you're in the ground. I definitely appreciate a good work ethic, I like to think that I have a good one, but no job is worth working yourself into the ground for no other reason than "work ethic". Work-life balance is important, and a combination of good pay and plentiful PTO can go along way to help achieve that.

Also, apparently this dynamic between employers and "workers" (an interesting choice of term in the below anecdote) is nothing new.

I used to work in a children's hospital, and can't begin to tell you how many times the admin tried to use pizza to make their disgruntled employees happier. Fully catered lunches almost every day during peak covid craziness.

It was ironic that the nurses (who the food was for) never got to eat much of it due to being so stinking busy all day. The hospital probably spent more money on food than it would cost to hire a few more nurses.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

I used to work in a children's hospital, and can't begin to tell you how many times the admin tried to use pizza to make their disgruntled employees happier. Fully catered lunches almost every day during peak covid craziness.

It was ironic that the nurses (who the food was for) never got to eat much of it due to being so stinking busy all day. The hospital probably spent more money on food than it would cost to hire a few more nurses.

When I first started at Microsoft, I was happy with all the free soda pop. It occurred to me some time later that providing the employees unlimited soda pop and frou-frou coffee probably cost Microsoft an average on the order of two or perhaps three dollars per day per employee—certainly no more than $1000 per year per employee, probably considerably less. The immediacy of the benefit of free drinks at work probably leverages a return of employee goodwill that would cost thousands of dollars per year per employee in salary increase to duplicate. In the end, maybe after I started getting fat, I decided I'd rather have the money and buy my own soda pop. But management didn't seem to hear my well-considered opinion.

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

I decided I'd rather have the money and buy my own soda pop. But management didn't seem to hear my well-considered opinion.

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

The hospital probably spent more money on food than it would cost to hire a few more nurses.

Financially, it doesn't make sense.  But psychologically, it's a big deal.

The thing is that if it is part of your salary, it is considered something to "expect".  Therefore, they don't get any credit for it.  But if it is "free soda" -- even if it is understood as being available to everyone -- it is considered a "perk". 

But for the hospital that was so busy that most people didn't get to have any of the food anyway, it probably would have been better to hire more personnel.

[Just_A_Guy]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:47 PM, Godless said:

If you die tomorrow, your employer will replace you before you're in the ground. I definitely appreciate a good work ethic, I like to think that I have a good one, but no job is worth working yourself into the ground for no other reason than "work ethic". Work-life balance is important, and a combination of good pay and plentiful PTO can go along way to help achieve that.

This is certainly important for an employer to keep in mind; although as a basis of policy one should probably also bear in mind that employers aren’t necessarily required to show a heck of a lot of altruism or loyalty to their bosses, either.

On 6/9/2023 at 4:25 PM, Godless said:

Another note on this topic: Minnesota recently passed a law mandating Paid Family Medical Leave, making it the 13th state to do so. 

American politicians’ plan for a better life for the citizenry:

1.  Require employers to pay people *not* to work.

2.  Wonder why goods and services are suddenly getting so expensive.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:32 AM, scottyg said:

On the flip side, I also work with a lady who never has paid time off hours stored in her "bank"...as she uses them all up every week for some kind of "fun activity", and always complains that we aren't given more time off from work...yet she hasn't worked a full 80 hours in a pay period since she joined the company. That behavior will hurt her if she ever really needs to take an extended leave of absence from work, and doesn't have the hours to do so. (she also doesn't contribute anything to retirement as she is one of those people with a "have fun now" and/or FOMO mentality)

One of my greatest fears is having an old broken body, no longer being able to work, and being broke.  I read a survey they did of Generation X (my generation) had about 18% of people have nothing saved for retirement and about 35% had less than $10,000 saved for retirement purposes.  These people who save nothing will be old and broke sadly.  Delay too long and it will be too late and you will end up working with whatever work you can find which likely will not be much opportunity as many employers do not want to hire old people.

[mikbone]

 

Boomers 43-65, workaholics, insulted by supervision, loyal to the company

Gen Xers 65-78 Work as hard as needed, OK with some supervision & loyal to people

Millennials high value on work / life balance, expect continuous supervision, loyal to ideas. 
 

From

https://journals.lww.com/jbjsjournal/Abstract/2017/06210/Leadership,_Communication,_and_Negotiation_Across.12.aspx

In my residency, not a single sick day was ever taken for 20 years.  You were expected to show up.  If you had to puke or had the runs, you scrub out take care of business and then scrub back in.

I didnt know what PTO was till a few years ago.

 

During residency we worked 120 hr work weeks (its possible).  A few times I logged over 130 hrs.  Current residents are prohibited from working more than 80 hours a week.  They have better lifestyle.  But they are significantly less prepared.  When a current successful surgeon retires, It takes 2 surgeons to replace him.

Edited June 11, 2023 by mikbone

[Guest Godless]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

American politicians’ plan for a better life for the citizenry:

1.  Require employers to pay people *not* to work.

2.  Wonder why goods and services are suddenly getting so expensive.  

That's not quite how it works. I can't speak for other states (though my understanding is that we based our bill off of what they're doing), but our plan is paid out by the state and funded by a pool of fees collected from employers, who are allowed to recoup a portion of the fees from employee paychecks. The bill had quite a bit of support from both large and small businesses because research shows that this way of handling family medical leave is less costly to employers than paying for their employees' paid leave directly.

[Still_Small_Voice]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:58 PM, Vort said:

If I worked there, I would be sure to take full advantage of Menstruation and Menopausal Leave, Gender Affirmation Leave, and First Nations People Leave.

What the Hades is First Nations People Leave?  In my opinion it is another excuse to get out of work. 

I use all of my paid time off and I get plenty of it in my opinion.  Every Federal Holiday plus about about 192 hours annually (about a month off).  My employment is pretty good.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Still_Small_Voice

[Traveler]

For the last decade and a half of my profession I worked with a little consulting business of myself as the only consultant.  There were no benefits, no sick leave, no vacations, no 401K or pension.  My only compensation was a previously arranged hourly rate that I alone maintained.  I was also on call 24/7 for emergencies and received separate compensation plus possible bonus for my emergency contributions.

I never enjoyed working more than during this time.  My customers loved this arrangement more than I did because I was exempt from government regulations, oversight and paperwork – I was merely a line-item expense that was easy to justify to the corporate management.

If I had understood the workplace and politics better, I would have become a consultant much sooner in life.  Benefits are not really benefits.  The way the laws are structured being my own company and my own employee gave me tax advantages that greatly surprised me and the accountant I paid to find all the benefits was a 100% deduction.  And my accountant loved working for me because he could design my little business to take advantage of all possibilities.  In essence, I was an experiment for all his other clients and because I was a single employee corporation, I was a low priority for the IRS.

I have determined that benefits are the opposite of what they are called.  They are not your benefits but rather a loss of pay that you otherwise deserve plus the HR department must subtract from your worth to justify their existence and in reality, they are a very poor ROI.  Those that are willing to work based on what they provide are free of the company freeloaders and I found that having the liberty to control my own work destiny is a much better way to live than trying to survive as a company employee.

 

The Traveler