Do you fast?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, marge said:

Interesting!  24 hours with no water is so hard core.

It probably sounds more impressive than it really is. In reality, as long as you start out well-hydrated, 24 hours without water is not a big deal.

[Ironhold]

33 minutes ago, marge said:

I guess our version of the bishops storehouse is St Vincent De Paul, anyone can go and get food or clothes, or they will deliver it to you if you can't get there, pay utility bills, fuel cards, help with teaching budgeting, housing applications that sort of thing. I didn't know the Bishops storehouse was for everyone, that's awesome, I got the impression it was just for struggling LDS and you had to sit an interview with the bishop first?  

A big part of it is to ensure that the people seeking aid actually *do* need assistance. Sadly, there are people who try to take advantage of charitable systems. 

Additionally, it allows the bishop to help determine *what* specifically you need. Financial management classes? One or two bills paid? A basket of food and household goods to get you through the next month? Et cetra. The bishop may counsel that one or more expenses be given up or some excess personal assets sold to help make ends meet, especially if the person is in financial trouble due to excess spending. 

As far as the Bishop's Storehouse goes, it's a mix of items that are available. Some of the items are produced by the church at its various farms and ranches. Some of the items are actually produced by the Seventh-Day Adventists, who provide us with the material as part of a deal in which we help handle logistics for their humanitarian aid systems. Some of the items are "private label" materials produced by reputable third parties under the church's name. And some items are name brand items that the church negotiates with the manufacturers over to get at a discount. 

The products available aren't "luxury" brands or big-name items, but they will get you through, especially when supplemented with various other aid programs that may be available locally.

For example, here in the United States we have WIC, the "Women, Infants, Children" program in which women who have children and are earning less than a designated financial amount can receive state aid in purchasing *very* select groceries for themselves and their families. 

This is the official website for the State of Texas' WIC program: https://texaswic.org/

WIC allows people to purchase select staple items like milk, oats, beans, rice, yogurt, and so forth, at a free or reduced rate. The website will have a list of what items are or aren't covered under the WIC program here in Texas. Grocery stores are obligated to mark eligible items with a special pink-colored price tag or other pink-colored marker to make these items easier to find. 

[Carborendum]

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Edited August 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, marge said:

I didn't know the Bishops storehouse was for everyone, that's awesome, I got the impression it was just for struggling LDS and you had to sit an interview with the bishop first?  

It is true that anyone can ask for assistance from the Bishop's Storehouse.  But they do have to go to the local bishop and interview with them.  Membership is not a requirement.  But it does influence whether the bishop deems your case appropriate to help out.

One thing (as others have mentioned) is that many will try to game the system.  The interview with the bishop is to help ensure that you really are in need, and/or you have a plan to get yourself out of poverty.  Here are some examples.

• One ward had several handicapped individuals.  This particular bishop determined that as they were receiving aid, they would to something to serve the Church's needs.  For example, several of them were able to at least help with cleaning the church building once/wk.  It wasn't as onerous as a full 40 hr/wk job.  But it was at least participating in the world and helping others.  Not all of them were LDS.
• A man told the bishop that he was unhappy with his life and wanted to make a major change by becoming a police officer.  He needed financial help and food while he was attending the police academy.  The bishop determined that it would be appropriate to help him.  And in this particular case, the bishop paid for everything but the mortgage for the full duration of academy training.
• An LDS woman and non-LDS husband.  Husband lost his job.  The bishop went to offer assistance.  The husband was suspicious that this was some sort of ruse to get him baptized.  In this particular instance the bishop assured him that if he ever got baptized, it would be under his own terms.  The aid being offered would not be contingent on any expectation of baptism.  But he pointed out the window and said, you have a very dependable truck with big wheels that can get through mud.  From time to time, we may ask you to help out with a service project.  Over the course of many years, that husband did, indeed, lend the use of his truck to various service projects for people in the ward and around the area.  He was never baptized.  And that was ok.
• A man came off the street and walked directly to the storehouse reception and demanded some food.  The receptionist asked if he had the order form from the bishop.  The man insisted that since this was a charity they needed to give him whatever food he asked for because he was poor.  He didn't need any forms... I won't go over the whole story.  But it did not end well.

[marge]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It is true that anyone can ask for assistance from the Bishop's Storehouse.  But they do have to go to the local bishop and interview with them.  Membership is not a requirement.  But it does influence whether the bishop deems your case appropriate to help out.

One thing (as others have mentioned) is that many will try to game the system.  The interview with the bishop is to help ensure that you really are in need, and/or you have a plan to get yourself out of poverty.  Here are some examples.

• One ward had several handicapped individuals.  This particular bishop determined that as they were receiving aid, they would to something to serve the Church's needs.  For example, several of them were able to at least help with cleaning the church building once/wk.  It wasn't as onerous as a full 40 hr/wk job.  But it was at least participating in the world and helping others.  Not all of them were LDS.
• A man told the bishop that he was unhappy with his life and wanted to make a major change by becoming a police officer.  He needed financial help and food while he was attending the police academy.  The bishop determined that it would be appropriate to help him.  And in this particular case, the bishop paid for everything but the mortgage for the full duration of academy training.
• An LDS woman and non-LDS husband.  Husband lost his job.  The bishop went to offer assistance.  The husband was suspicious that this was some sort of ruse to get him baptized.  In this particular instance the bishop assured him that if he ever got baptized, it would be under his own terms.  The aid being offered would not be contingent on any expectation of baptism.  But he pointed out the window and said, you have a very dependable truck with big wheels that can get through mud.  From time to time, we may ask you to help out with a service project.  Over the course of many years, that husband did, indeed, lend the use of his truck to various service projects for people in the ward and around the area.  He was never baptized.  And that was ok.
• A man came off the street and walked directly to the storehouse reception and demanded some food.  The receptionist asked if he had the order form from the bishop.  The man insisted that since this was a charity they needed to give him whatever food he asked for because he was poor.  He didn't need any forms... I won't go over the whole story.  But it did not end well.

I guess every church has a different view on how they practice charity, each to their own

[marge]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

A big part of it is to ensure that the people seeking aid actually *do* need assistance. Sadly, there are people who try to take advantage of charitable systems. 

Additionally, it allows the bishop to help determine *what* specifically you need. Financial management classes? One or two bills paid? A basket of food and household goods to get you through the next month? Et cetra. The bishop may counsel that one or more expenses be given up or some excess personal assets sold to help make ends meet, especially if the person is in financial trouble due to excess spending. 

As far as the Bishop's Storehouse goes, it's a mix of items that are available. Some of the items are produced by the church at its various farms and ranches. Some of the items are actually produced by the Seventh-Day Adventists, who provide us with the material as part of a deal in which we help handle logistics for their humanitarian aid systems. Some of the items are "private label" materials produced by reputable third parties under the church's name. And some items are name brand items that the church negotiates with the manufacturers over to get at a discount. 

The products available aren't "luxury" brands or big-name items, but they will get you through, especially when supplemented with various other aid programs that may be available locally.

For example, here in the United States we have WIC, the "Women, Infants, Children" program in which women who have children and are earning less than a designated financial amount can receive state aid in purchasing *very* select groceries for themselves and their families. 

This is the official website for the State of Texas' WIC program: https://texaswic.org/

WIC allows people to purchase select staple items like milk, oats, beans, rice, yogurt, and so forth, at a free or reduced rate. The website will have a list of what items are or aren't covered under the WIC program here in Texas. Grocery stores are obligated to mark eligible items with a special pink-colored price tag or other pink-colored marker to make these items easier to find. 

I'm in Australia, we dont have food stamps here, but everyone who isnt working is eligible for unemployment benefits, its not enough to live off and people often run out of food and struggle to survive, my church has soup kitchens where anyone who needs a hot meal can go, services are struggling to keep up with the demand at the moment with the current financial crisis.  St Vincent De Paul will go over finances with people for bill payments, but never for food, I guess they think people that down their luck having to beg for food don't need further trauma.  A lot of them are mothers who can't feed their children due to drug habits, its so sad   But at least those children will get to eat something.  If they were asked a million questions as to why they are there asking for food they wouldn't come back.

[Vort]

36 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

.

I think Carb has brilliantly and succinctly outlined the period of the fast.

[Carborendum]

12 hours ago, marge said:

I guess every church has a different view on how they practice charity, each to their own

I realize you've been on the boards a long time.  And you've been very polite.  So I'm hoping you meant this in a different attitude than it sounded.  Because it sounded pretty dismissive.  So, I'll put forth the following.

• There is a whole lot more that we do in helping the poor than just the bishop's storehouse.  At the same time, I don't want to diminish what the storehouse does.  Their work is much more extensive than most people realize.  We probably supply more food to the needy than any other charity in the world.
• We tend to team up with other major charities (like the Red Cross) to help with their efforts.  This includes helping with their financial needs to perform specific tasks.
• We have an education fund to help with people who want to pursue vocational training to improve their financial lives.
• We have an adoption agency (sort of) which helps with crisis pregnancies.
• Last year we spent more money on charitable causes than any other non-profit in the world (AFAIK).  Nearly $1Billion on charitable work.

The main philosophy that I want to emphasize is that charity isn't just giving people whatever they ask for.  We've been entrusted with funds from millions of individuals and families who want to help the poor and needy.  It is our responsibility to ensure that trust is not violated.  So, we don't just throw food and money anywhere and everywhere.  That is just bad stewardship. 

We seek out those we believe are really needy and give in a manner that seems to do the most good in the most efficient way possible.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

Hey @marge! I’m a former Catholic too. I got a ton of service hours folding clothes and ringing up customers at my local SVDP store while I was in high school.

Welcome to the forums! 

[estradling75]

There is a saying related to charity that I think applies.

 

Give a man a Fish, and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to Fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

If you are truly trying to be charitable as Christ taught. There are times when you need to give a Fish and a time when you need to teach how to Fish.  The Bishop's Storehouse is setup to do/encourage both depending on what it needed.  Other charitable setups the church has may lean strongly one way or the other depending on which issue it is attempting to address.  Soup kitchens are about Giving FIshes and should be supported, but in many cases that is simply not enough.  Ideally soup kitchens should be working to put themselves out of business, realistically that is not going to happen because their will always be a need.  But addressing the cause and not just the effect is a greater act of charity

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

There is a saying related to charity that I think applies.

 

Give a man a Fish, and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to Fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

......

The quote I remember is:

Light a fire and you will warm a person for a few hours.

Light them on fire and you will warm them for the rest of their life.

 

The Traveler

[marge]

13 hours ago, estradling75 said:

There is a saying related to charity that I think applies.

 

Give a man a Fish, and you feed him for a day.

Teach a man to Fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

 

If you are truly trying to be charitable as Christ taught. There are times when you need to give a Fish and a time when you need to teach how to Fish.  The Bishop's Storehouse is setup to do/encourage both depending on what it needed.  Other charitable setups the church has may lean strongly one way or the other depending on which issue it is attempting to address.  Soup kitchens are about Giving FIshes and should be supported, but in many cases that is simply not enough.  Ideally soup kitchens should be working to put themselves out of business, realistically that is not going to happen because their will always be a need.  But addressing the cause and not just the effect is a greater act of charity

I agree, st vincent de paul do both those things as well.  I think I might be confused by what you mean by charity. In my faith charity is when a person loves God above all things for his own sake and loves others for God's sake. Its not about giving necessarily (although giving obviously comes from it) but about love.

[marge]

13 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Hey @marge! I’m a former Catholic too. I got a ton of service hours folding clothes and ringing up customers at my local SVDP store while I was in high school.

Welcome to the forums! 

lol fun times right!  I'm not a former catholic, I did step away for a while and had a crisis of faith, looked at a lot of other belief systems but I went back to Catholicism in the end.

I like to find the similarities in religious beliefs. I think every denomination is just doing their best and fully believe in what they are doing.

I should update my profile so it says that

Edited August 11, 2023 by marge

[marge]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I realize you've been on the boards a long time.  And you've been very polite.  So I'm hoping you meant this in a different attitude than it sounded.  Because it sounded pretty dismissive.  So, I'll put forth the following.

• There is a whole lot more that we do in helping the poor than just the bishop's storehouse.  At the same time, I don't want to diminish what the storehouse does.  Their work is much more extensive than most people realize.  We probably supply more food to the needy than any other charity in the world.
• We tend to team up with other major charities (like the Red Cross) to help with their efforts.  This includes helping with their financial needs to perform specific tasks.
• We have an education fund to help with people who want to pursue vocational training to improve their financial lives.
• We have an adoption agency (sort of) which helps with crisis pregnancies.
• Last year we spent more money on charitable causes than any other non-profit in the world (AFAIK).  Nearly $1Billion on charitable work.

The main philosophy that I want to emphasize is that charity isn't just giving people whatever they ask for.  We've been entrusted with funds from millions of individuals and families who want to help the poor and needy.  It is our responsibility to ensure that trust is not violated.  So, we don't just throw food and money anywhere and everywhere.  That is just bad stewardship. 

We seek out those we believe are really needy and give in a manner that seems to do the most good in the most efficient way possible.

I didn't mean to be dismissive at all, its just different ways of doing things.

[LDSGator]

24 minutes ago, marge said:

lol fun times right!  I'm not a former catholic, I did step away for a while and had a crisis of faith, looked at a lot of other belief systems but I went back to Catholicism in the end.

I like to find the similarities in religious beliefs. I think every denomination is just doing their best and fully believe in what they are doing.

I should update my profile so it says that

Very cool! 

[Carborendum]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:26 PM, marge said:

I agree, st vincent de paul do both those things as well.  I think I might be confused by what you mean by charity. In my faith charity is when a person loves God above all things for his own sake and loves others for God's sake. Its not about giving necessarily (although giving obviously comes from it) but about love.

There's the Biblical/classical definition of charity, and there is the modern common usage of the word.

Biblically, you're correct, it means godly love.  Today, however, the word is used to denote the donations to the poor.  Use context to determine which definition we're using.

[laronius]

A thought I just had pertaining to this thread comes from 1 Nephi 3:7 where Nephi states that whenever the Lord gives a commandment He will also provide a way for it to be kept. Given this principle, if someone is physically/medically unable to go without food and drink, it seems that the Lord will provide "a way" to observe the law of the fast that yet serves the purpose of the law.

[JohnsonJones]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:13 AM, Carborendum said:

For the most part the "law of the fast" is similar to what I've heard from people of other Christian faiths. But there are tweaks from denomination to denomination.  Here are some differences.

• We fast both food and water.  Many only fast food.  Some only fast specific foods.  For us it is a complete fast of all food and drink.  Although medical reasons may limit this.
• It is supposed to be for a complete 24 hrs, or as reasonably close to that as conditions may dictate.  I doubt anyone has a timer going and say that they still have to wait 12 more seconds before taking the first bite.  It is from finishing dinner on Saturday to beginning of dinner on Sunday (whatever times they may be, but relatively close to 24 hrs).
• Prior to the settlement of Utah, there were special instances where a fast was called for.  And we invited all those who would participate to do so. 
• But during the settlement of Utah, we had droves of people who had given all their worldly goods to make the trek across the country.  And they came to Utah, starving.  Brigham Young then instituted Fast Sunday wherein we would have a fast and donate the food that would have been eaten to those who did not have anything.
• Even today, our fast offerings go to fund the Bishop's Storehouse which is reserved for the poor.  All other fasts do not have the donation associated with it.  But I'm sure there are some who give a fast offering for individual fasts as well.

I'm glad you bring this up.  Some other things to note.

What the Church promotes as fasting is NOT NECESSARILY Biblically correct or even the fashion in which they fasted in the past.  It may be, but it may also not be.  It certainly does not fit in some of the ways that fasting is done today by others who fast.

There are many different definitions of fasting and how it is done.  The Church promotes what we many call dry fasting, or abstaining from food or drink. 

Most fasts that are religious do not have a prohibition on water.  They do have a prohibition on food in many of them.  You have Christians that have fasted for weeks (which is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a dry fast such as the Church promotes...you would die if you tried to do so).  Some Catholic Saints have emulated the 40 day fast (once again, impossible to do with the Church's version of fasting...which shows that the Church's version has not been strictly religious in this fashion in which it is required to dry fast to fast for at least several hundred years). 

Other non-Christian religions have it where you DO abstain from food AND drink, but only during daylight hours (and once night sets, you can feast and drink all you want).  This is technically fasting for the day, but is also considering the night as not part of the day. 

Other ways of fasting may not even including abstaining from food or drink, but abstaining from something in particular (for example, going on an alcohol fast...etc). 

The big thing of fasting and religion is that it shows sacrifice in the pursuit of something greater.  Whether that sacrifice is of food or drink or something that you value, you are placing your faith above that of superficial or temporary needs.

That said, there are those who should not do dry fasts and I am against people trying to enforce those who should not fast to do such fasting.  This incurs what I may call...the CURSES of fasting (though it could be more precise to say of improper fasting). 

For example...I knew a family that would force their children over the age of 8 to fast.  It made 2 of them violently ill on Fast Sundays.  To no one's surprise, those kids checked out of the gospel as soon as they could.  Torturing your children is not a good way to engender them to the gospel.

ON the other hand I've known a family that didn't have any thought towards fasting.  Their family never fasted.  Their oldest fell away from the Church before they had even graduated High School.

There is a proper place and time to fast.  Those who are able should, and those who should not should understand WHY we fast and what the reasons for it is.  There are ways to fast without having to do a dry fast if one is unable to fast in that manner.  It is sacrificing a temporary need or desire by putting the things of the Lord first.

Food and Drink are some of the most basic desires (and needs) that we have.  IF we are healthy enough to do so, but abstaining from these WITH A PURPOSE, and focusing on what the Lord desires us to do we can gain many blessings.  We can grow closer to the Lord and his spirit.  We can gain many other blessings.  As we fast, it is an excellent time to examine our own lives and see if there is anything special we may be in need of.  Having that as something we can approach the Lord with as we fast can help us learn various things on it (whether it is really necessary for us, whether we really need it, why we need it, are there other ways for us to accomplish it, is there anything we may learn from the experience...etc). 

I find that both the fasting by putting the Lord first and foremost, but putting him above our desires, as well as fasting with a purpose, enhances the fast more than simply fasting out of obedience (though there can also be blessings from that).  Of course, this is if you can do it in a healthy manner and are able to do so. 

I think that those who cannot fully participate in a dry fast can still receive many blessings.  Some may be different than those who do a full dry fast, but the core ideas and the faith necessary to fast as they can will still bring the blessings that others receive because it is the faith and the spirit the makes the fast...not the physical qualities of simply doing it. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by JohnsonJones