Ezra's Eagle

[zil2]

No, I've not gone off the deep end!  

TL,DR: Has anyone actually read the original interpretation (by Michael B. Rush who appears to have originated it) of the vision contained in the apocryphal book 2 Esdras, chapters 11 and 12 about US presidents and used to predict the timing of the Second Coming?  If so, do you have any thoughts?

(Above chapter 11 link is an old book on the google play store that was scanned. I trust its translation more as some make no sense and confuse matters more. Other good ones seem to be the Bible Gateway one and Bible Society one.)

Long Version:

A Church member (sister) I know has been reading some books and watching some videos by this fellow, including the book in which he details his interpretation (which he said is inspired, and explains when / how that happened in the book - and in the excerpt at the above link).  Here is where he claims to be the originator (at same link) - at least, that's my interpretation:

Quote

Since first publishing my interpretation of Ezra's Eagle, interest has turned global.  There are now many books and internet postings that have been written based upon my interpretation. Unfortunately, most of these accounts have divorced the vision from its intended context - making it appear as just another random isolated event. It is not! It is part of a much bigger and important picture that is vital to your preparation.

Of course, brother Rush has written books and is selling them, along with making YouTube videos.  This is the first time I've heard of him.  And though I've heard the phrase "Ezra's Eagle" before, I had no idea what it was and never felt inclined to investigate.

Back to this sister.  She said her adult children have been giving her a hard time because she's reading the guy's books and asked if I'd be willing to read some portion of them (or perhaps all) and tell her what I think.  The short section on Ezra's Eagle (from the July 2020 edition of A Remnant Shall Return) was the first thing she wanted me to read.  So, I took the book.

First thing I did was google this site, and then the web.  I didn't find much in text (hate watching videos when I'm trying to learn details - wastes so much time).  But I found that it's from a vision in the apocryphal book of 2 Esdras 11 and 12.  So, I found that and read it.  It meant nothing specific to me, so then I turned to the book. (Later, I went back and read some of the book of Daniel 2, 7 and 8, because it's mentioned in 2 Esdras, but I couldn't find any obvious relation between the visions - though I don't suppose there has to be.)

Useful notes about me:

• I'm not a history buff. I think the US education system I grew up in was explicitly designed to cause children to be disinterested in history, and it succeeded with me.  I've only recently started changing my mind, so I'm ignorant as a stump.
• I'm not a "signs of the times" buff.  I know the scriptures, I know the basics of these signs, but I've always figured the Second Coming for me was more likely to happen at my death than at the Second Coming, and either way, my preparation ought to be the same - live the gospel, follow the prophets.
• I'm skeptical about folks claiming to have figured out interpretations of scripture (or apocryphal writings) that are new to the world, so I figure that makes me a good candidate to give this sister a reasoned opinion.
• But I also believe firmly that secret combinations are real, in operation at this moment, and present a real threat to our peaceful and prosperous existence in this country.  IMO, President Benson was no nut job.
• Back when Ordain Women was all over the news (but new to me), I decided rather than reading news stories about them, I'd go to their website and see what they said about themselves. As soon as the home page loaded, the Spirit communicated to me in no uncertain terms that this was a dangerous place.  It didn't tell me to leave, just gave me a sense that I needed to be on my guard. That experience has led me to trust that this can happen, to be open for such guidance, and to be skeptical and cautious when researching such things.  All this to say, I'm not in danger of going off the deep end after things like this.

Initial Impression

So, back to the book.  I read the first chapter - which was more about him, what he's doing, and why.  It raised some yellow flags (not orange or red, just yellow):

• Some phrases could be him setting the reader up to trust the author over prophets and over what they have already learned - maybe (or maybe they're just poorly worded - I would need to read more of his writings to figure out which).
• He seems to use scripture to discredit himself without realizing it.
• In the second chapter, he cites scripture that supports him, but skips over verses of the same passage that might encourage the reader to be skeptical of him (which makes me more skeptical).
• In some places, his wording is a bit condescending, assuming the reader doesn't know certain scriptures or understand their import, and telling the reader that he (the author) will educate the reader on these later. (This also made me wonder if he was trying to set up the reader to trust in the author more than themselves, prophets, the Church and its manuals, and/or the Holy Ghost - doesn't have to be the case, maybe the guy just thinks too much of himself, but it stood out to me.)
• And, when it comes to eagles as symbols, he doesn't even address Russia or Muscovy with its short-lived three-headed eagle (and I have no idea if there are others he missed).  Not sure that matters, but still.
• Mr. Rush is also in serious need of a (better) proofreader, editor, and typesetter / printer. (There's a chart / graph that is clearly missing key elements, and even if those elements were present, it would be meaningless without pages of citation to give the data points meaning.  It's kinda bizarre that it was left like that - and no fix or mention or anything on the website.)

Ezra's Eagle

And then I read the second chapter about Ezra's Eagle (have yet to read the third).  When I was done, there wasn't really anything that screamed "apostate" or "nut job" at me (though Mr. Rush comes off as both a Trump fan-boy and someone prone to over-the-top (to the point of absurd - seems to have been removed in his latest version found in the excerpt on the website) predictions about what might happen with Trump's presidency - which was on-going when the book was published (2015) and updated (2020)).  I didn't even find any particular reason to think he was wrong except (see the "mess up" comment next)...

After reading this chapter, wherein he seemed to mess up his counting of wings, feathers, and presidents - off by 1, I decided to go back to 2 Esdras and diagram what I read for myself, without regard for or consulting brother Rush's book. 

For those who don't know, the vision describes an eagle which has 3 heads, 12 wings (or large feathers), and 8 feathers (or small or "under" wings).  The interpretation describes the heads, wings, and feathers as "kings" that will rule the kingdom represented by the eagle.

Biggest problem - vagueness in sequence of the various wings/feathers ruling:

• Chapter 11 makes it clear that three of the larger wings rule first.
• After that, it suggests that the other 9 rule...
• But in v22 we see that the 12 wings (large feathers) and 2 feathers (little wings) are gone, so 2 of the 8 ruled in there somewhere, but that previous suggestion might make you think it was after the 9 wings.
• Then in chapter 12, in the interpretation, in v14 and 16, it says 12 kings - the 12 wings (large feathers) rule one after another.
• But then it says in v19 that the 8 "under wings" (little feathers) are kings who will reign for a short time.  "And two of them shall perish, when the middle time approacheth: four shall be kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach: but two shall be kept unto the end."  Which suggests that two of these kings who rule for a short time will be interspersed in with the 12 wings, despite it saying the 12 will rule "one after another".

None of that is insurmountable.  I wouldn't even consider it unusual for an ancient prophecy to not have details in order as we might expect them today.  One could be justified in arguing either way - 12 large rule, then the 8 small (forget the three heads for now); or 2 of the little are intermixed with the 12 large, then the rest of the little.  Neither is unreasonable.

Technical problem: in 11:13-17, but especially v17, it says of the second feather which ruled for a long time, "There shall none after thee attain unto thy time, neither unto the half thereof."  Brother Rush argues that this is FDR, who served 4 terms (but only 12 years, not 16).  Other presidents since him have served 2 terms, 8 years, which is more than half of 12.  And if you count 4 terms, they served 2, which is half as many, and the verse says they won't even get to half.  Brother Rush overcomes this by saying that Webster's 1828 dictionary defines "attain" "as exceeding or surpassing". The Webster's 1828 website doesn't agree. (But, "gain, overtake, arrive at" is the definition in Johnson's 1828 dictionary - Webster includes overtake, but also as a secondary possibility, barely mentioned.)

Now, I'm taking brother Rush's assertion that the first wing to rule this eagle is Herbert Hoover (see the excerpt for why - secret organization), and starting there.  For some reason, Rush himself screws up after wing #12 / president #14 (Barack Obama):

Duration	President	Wing / Feather
4	Herbert Hoover	Wing 1 of 12
12	Franklin D. Roosevelt	Wing 2 of 12
8	Harry S. Truman	Wing 3 of 12
8	Dwight D Eisenhower	Wing 4 of 12
2	John F. Kennedy	Feather 1 of 8
6	Lyndon B. Johnson	Wing 5 of 12
5	Richard M. Nixon	Feather 2 of 8
45	years to the middle
2.5	Gerald R. Ford	Wing 6 of 12
4	Jimmy Carter	Wing 7 of 12
8	Ronald Reagan	Wing 8 of 12
4	George Bush	Wing 9 of 12
8	Bill Clinton	Wing 10 of 12
8	George W. Bush	Wing 11 of 12
8	Barack Obama	Wing 12 of 12
1	Donald J. Trump	Feather 3 of 8
3	Joseph R. Biden	Feather 4 of 8
46.5	years since the middle

 

Maybe he screwed it up because he was using one of the weird translations.  Anywho, this screw up is why I stopped after chapter 2 and went back to 2 Esdras 11-12 to map it out for myself.  Ignoring that, let us start with Obama, the last wing.  At this point, all 12 wings and 2 of 8 feathers have ruled, leaving us 6 feathers.  Here's what the vision says about those:

• 11:24: two of the 6 remaining go and move under the head on the right (presumably ally themselves politically).  These are the two saved to the end (see above).
• Of the remaining 4, they wanted to rule (11:25)
• 11:26: (feather 3 of 8) "there was one set up, but within a while it appeared no more" - this is no different from previous language.  But the translation Rush is using says "there was one set up, but shortly it appeared no more."  He takes the "shortly" to mean the presidency would be cut short - Trump's presidency.  No, "shortly" hasn't been used before, but had he gone to the interpretation, that makes it clear that all the little feathers will rule for a shorter time (12:20).  So Trump's rule didn't have to be cut short for "shortly" to apply. (Alternately, Rush somehow skipped this feather.)
• 11:27: (feather 4 of 8) "A second also, and it was sooner away than the first."  This suggests that Biden's presidency will end before its full 4 years are up (if Rush's interpretation is correct, once his own error is fixed).  Rush actually completely misses either feather 3 or feather 4 - it's impossible to tell which - if he thinks Trump is feather 4, he misses #3; if he thinks Trump is feather 3, he misses 4.
• Having jumped over one feather without addressing it, he goes straight to feathers 5 and 6 (and this is where he poses some absurd scenarios that I'm not even going to bother addressing - we're past that anyway with Biden being feather 4).  Truly baffled that he could screw this part up even before Biden was elected.
• Note that feathers 3, 4, 5, and 6 are "kept for a while until the time of the ending thereof shall approach" (ending of the eagle).  This would suggest we're nearing the end.
• Feathers 7 & 8 will be "kept unto the end".

Anywho, if brother Rush is correct (after I've corrected his mistake), here's what's going to happen:

• Biden's presidency will be cut short - shorter than Trump's.
• Feathers 5 & 6 - two folk who want to rule (11:28) will be "eaten up" when the three heads awake with the larger one ruling and the two smaller ones its allies.
• The large head rules "with much oppression" and more power than any of its predecessors. "For these (the three heads) are they that shall accomplish her (the eagle's) wickedness, and that shall finish her last end."  (Whether this will be the next president after Biden or something else due to government collapse, heaven knows.)
• Suddenly the big giant head (sorry, couldn't resist) will die in its bed in pain (11:33 and 12:26)
• Then the right and left heads will rule together, but the right head will kill the left with the sword (11:34-35, 12:27-28)
• Then the right will also die by the sword (12:28) after being condemned by the Lord (11:36-12:2)
• Then the last two feathers (7 & 8) will rule together "and their kingdom was small (likely means short), and full of uproar" (12:2)
• These two will be burned up along with the entire eagle (12:3, 29-33)

But don't worry, "For the rest of my people shall he deliver with mercy, those that have been preserved throughout my borders, and he shall make them joyful until the coming of the end, even the day of judgement, whereof I have spoken unto thee from the beginning."

Well, I guess I'll go read chapter 3 now.  Final thought: If brother Rush is seeking to set himself up above prophets or to lead people astray, starting the book with an interpretation of a vision from the apocrypha, where there's nothing from any prophet to contradict him, is a clever move to gain the reader's trust in his authenticity and insight.  (I'd be more convinced were it not for the glaring "feather 3/4 error" and the absurdities of what might happen if Trump's presidency were cut short.)

Anywho, FWIW, and curious if anyone else has thoughts.  If you made it this far, you deserve a milkshake - go get one!

Edited December 13, 2023 by zil2

[NeuroTypical]

My gulcher conspiracy theorist sovereign citizen LDS buddy was talking about this 4 years ago.  By his math, the last president was Trump.  

Since then, he's moved on to another deal, where the leaders of Israel match up with the Governors of Utah, and we're now done to the last.

The hallmark of such things, is they have to Be Impending Right Now.   There's no such thing as a prophecy/timeline/event schedule that has something happen, like, 10 years from now or whatever.  

[zil2]

25 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

By his math, the last president was Trump.  

I saw that in my searches.  Perhaps your friend made the same mistake as the author who started it all (or took the author's word for it - that's my assumption, everyone repeating this is repeating the mistake I identified rather than finding it themselves).  That's why I put in all the links and the chart - I went over and over it, and dude missed either little feather 3 or little feather 4.  Or maybe your friend was going by the number of years and wanted them to match up perfectly (and that helped blind him to the erroneous wing/feather count).

NOTE: I'm not proposing anyone crawl into their bunker or whatever, I'm just reading this and identifying any issues that I see so that I can give this sister a thorough reaction to it.  Honestly, it makes no difference to me whether he's got it right or not - the reaction is still the same - repent and follow the prophet...  Though I've been saying for decades that the world can't end too soon.

Also, given brother Rush's error (and my fix - unless someone can see somewhere I screwed up), we won't have to wait long.  If Biden serves his full term and he's not replaced by a tyrant, then we'll know brother Rush got it wrong.

Meanwhile, I think chapter 3 will have to wait - my brain is tired and Klaw says I must come chase him around the basement.

[Carborendum]

On 12/13/2023 at 5:33 PM, zil2 said:

TL,DR: Has anyone actually read the original interpretation (by Michael B. Rush who appears to have originated it) of the vision contained in the apocryphal book 2 Esdras, chapters 11 and 12 about US presidents and used to predict the timing of the Second Coming?  If so, do you have any thoughts?

He still has a shot at being correct.  If Biden is removed from office (death, impeachment, resignation, etc.) the pattern appears to be correct.  If that doesn't happen, then it apparently was a false interpretation.

We don't have too long to wait.

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

He still has a shot at being correct.  If Biden is removed from office (death, impeachment, resignation, etc.) the pattern appears to be correct.  If that doesn't happen, then it apparently was a false interpretation.

We don't have too long to wait.

Thanks!  Yeah, that was my thought.  Though even if Biden doesn't finish his presidency, that's only part of it - his interpretation could still be wrong.  We'll know in a year, basically.

I've managed to find exactly one thread on reddit where someone else found the same error I did, and where folks speculate on what the three heads could be, but I think this isn't as popular a topic (even back when the guy first published it) as brother Rush suggests / thinks.  I'll have to talk with the sister who asked me to read this and find out more about why or what her concerns are / reasons for reading this guy.

[zil2]

Oh, I guess for the sake of completeness I'll mention that I read chapter three.  He ties in the 2 Esdras vision with Daniel and Revelation (and maybe something else - I've forgotten already - probably shouldn't have read it last night), but in the end, it's just confirming the same thing and presenting a picture of the broader sequence of events that will happen before the Millennium begins - very high level / big picture version. Apparently the rest of the book (a lot) just expounds on the theme to give more details about those events.

I still can't find myself terribly moved - I mean, whether the guy is right, whether I know the sequence of events or not, my path forward is the same.  Keep my covenants.  Follow the prophet.  Practice self-reliance and emergency-preparedness.  Etc.  In short, live the life we've always been taught to live...  Don't need this guy to convince me to do that...

[mirkwood]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

He still has a shot at being correct.  If Biden is removed from office (death, impeachment, resignation, etc.) the pattern appears to be correct.  If that doesn't happen, then it apparently was a false interpretation.

We don't have too long to wait.

I read it about two years ago.  It is quite interesting.  As Carb said above, we will know soon if he got it right or not.

[mirkwood]

I also don't think Rush is an apostate etc.  I don't even think he is extreme.  He came up with a plausible explanation and we will see if he got it right or not.

[Traveler]

I am not so sure about “Ezra’s Eagle”.  My main concern is that none of our sustained “prophets” teach these things.  As far as given and especially modern revelation concerning the end of times – I am on the notion that nothing is more relevant than the Book of Mormon.

My personal most concerning notion is the intrusion of a secret combination, as spoken of in the BofM, into the highest offices of our government – especially those elected and those appointed as judges.  I am also concerned about our lawyers and those that work in our legal system.  Not all, because I have faith in some I know – like @Just_A_Guy on our forum.  But in general, I believe the Book of Mormon to be prophetic and that as the last-days progress we will see in our government how those supporting the satanic secret combinations protect each other and create legal ways to destroy their opposition.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 22, 2023 by Traveler

[Still_Small_Voice]

I hope I am wrong, but I think we are in the last years before a financial reset in the United States.  (It may be seven years or less.)  Looking back at my past thinking and previous posts, I thought we were in bad shape financially with the national debt in the past.  Now it is so much worse than it was before and we can witness this with the inflation that has been about an annual fifteen percent on many items.  Some people have said their power bills have gone up 50 to 100% in two years and they are using the same amount of power.

In regards to the Second Coming of Christ, I think the world will go through many years of trials before this happens.  And when the LORD comes to Jerusalem to end the battle at Armageddon and save the Jews, this is not even His Second Coming.  Christ leaves and there more time before He comes again with numerous angels to burn all things telestial and to reign as King of kings on the Earth.

[laronius]

7 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I hope I am wrong, but I think we are in the last years before a financial reset in the United States.  (It may be seven years or less.)  Looking back at my past thinking and previous posts, I thought we were in bad shape financially with the national debt in the past.  Now it is so much worse than it was before and we can witness this with the inflation that has been about an annual fifteen percent on many items.  Some people have said their power bills have gone up 50 to 100% in two years and they are using the same amount of power.

In regards to the Second Coming of Christ, I think the world will go through many years of trials before this happens.  And when the LORD comes to Jerusalem to end the battle at Armageddon and save the Jews, this is not even His Second Coming.  Christ leaves and there more time before He comes again with numerous angels to burn all things telestial and to reign as King of kings on the Earth.

To me a good indicator of where we stand economically is temple building. I don't think the Lord wants His Church to be in the middle of building 100+ temples when a major economic shift happens. That doesn't mean we can't see more recessions and hard financial times but the dollar needs to stay strong. Of course the Church has a lot of it's money tied up in non-liquid assets and so that could help soften any blow to the dollar, so who knows.

As to the Second Coming, yeah I think it's a ways off yet. The Lord hast spoken about hastening the work and shortening the time the saints would have to endure the trials of the last days but those are relative terms and I can't think of a single definitive prophesied sign that would give us any indication of how close it might be.

[Traveler]

The greatest sign to all the world that these are the last days took place nearly 200 years ago (April 6, 1830) when the kingdom of G-d was restored to the earth in its infancy.  I personally believe the next greatest sign to the world was in 1978 when all males of every nation, kindred, tongue and people were cleared by divine decree to receive the priesthood of G-d and participate in all the ordinances and covenants of G-d in order to prepare all peoples throughout the world that will so covenant, to receive the Christ that will rule earth in peace for 1,000 years.

There has never been a time on earth when the Gospel of Christ and the laws, ordinances and covenants of the Kingdom of G-d have been more available to all of mankind than at this very moment today.  It is my perceptions that for 2,000 years the wheat and tares have been growing together and that recently there has begun a great shuffling taking place to separate the wheat from not just the tares but the chaff as well.

I do not know that much concerning society prior to the flood of Noah and the final advent of Enoch but I cannot imagine that the separations and divisions between the saints of G-d and the perversions of man were any more distinct that what is currently taking place.  I would also point out that there is not a nation that currently will not allow those intent on destroying Israel to openly declare their intent throughout all nations, unincumbered without actual recourse.

Those that are familiar with the geography and history of Israel know that Armageddon is not a place of war or any battle but rather a symbol or place that Israel gathered and prepared for war.  Symbolically the leader Gog and the place of Magog are currently at war and in league with those nations intent on destroying Israel.  This is not a time of preparations for war but a time of war in Israel.

I am under the impression that this is not a time of peace in the world (despite the Christmas season) but rather a time of increasing tensions, violence and great economic uncertainty.  Some speak in terms of the coming election as a deliverance or time of easing.  Personally, I doubt that the hope of such things will sustain even till the casting of ballots for that election.   Those insisting on procrastinating their final preparations and thinking there is plenty of time remaining to enjoy the exploits of the world – follow a path I do not recommend.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 26, 2023 by Traveler

[askandanswer]

On 12/23/2023 at 1:27 AM, Traveler said:

As far as given and especially modern revelation concerning the end of times – I am on the notion that nothing is more relevant than the Book of Mormon.

It would seem to be an odd situation if God were to give the most important revelations concerning the end of times to prophets who lived more than 2000 years ago, in a culture far removed from that which will prevail at the end of times, rather than to the prophets who live at the end of times.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

I am always amazed how people will spend so much time studying these esoteric prophecies, but they will almost completely ignore the living prophet and his teachings. They will tell there neighbors about the impending coming of Christ, based on apocryphal writings, but they don't share the gospel basics with their neighbor. We need to reverse these stats and follow the prophet. Let the second coming apocalypses take care of themselves and live the gospel as taught by the scriptures, the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve.

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

It would seem to be an odd situation if God were to give the most important revelations concerning the end of times to prophets who lived more than 2000 years ago, in a culture far removed from that which will prevail at the end of times, rather than to the prophets who live at the end of times.

 

54 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am always amazed how people will spend so much time studying these esoteric prophecies, but they will almost completely ignore the living prophet and his teachings. They will tell there neighbors about the impending coming of Christ, based on apocryphal writings, but they don't share the gospel basics with their neighbor. We need to reverse these stats and follow the prophet. Let the second coming apocalypses take care of themselves and live the gospel as taught by the scriptures, the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve.

I was preparing a response for the thread “Christmas” that very much parallels what is happening in this thread.  The prophet Amos make a statement about the spiritual symmetry of divine prophesy and the fulfillment of divine prophesy.  I believe that this spiritual symmetry demands the role of living prophets (both ancient and current).  That the utterance and actions of the ancients if fulfilled by the utterances and actions of the current.  I believe that Jesus utilized this symmetry as the prime witness that he was the chosen Messiah.

I believe this is also testified as a witness in Alma chapter 13 of the Book of Mormon.  However, it would seem that Alma connects this prophetic symmetry with our first estate or the pre-existence.  I interpret Ecclesiastes 1:9 that all things of this mortal existence was planed in our first estate as prophesy and is fulfilled by what is done in our mortality.  That our G-d not only knows all such things but makes them manifest and known to those that believe in Him.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

14 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am always amazed how people will spend so much time studying these esoteric prophecies, but they will almost completely ignore the living prophet and his teachings. They will tell there neighbors about the impending coming of Christ, based on apocryphal writings, but they don't share the gospel basics with their neighbor. We need to reverse these stats and follow the prophet. Let the second coming apocalypses take care of themselves and live the gospel as taught by the scriptures, the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve.

To be fair, I have no idea how brother Rush lives the gospel and I'm not about to speculate against him when I have absolutely no evidence against him.  The observations I made pointed out possible concerns, for which there could be other explanations, and which would require more reading to determine the truth.  That he has chosen to delve into this vision doesn't in any way suggest that he's not magnifying his calling, ministering to others, doing temple work for his deceased ancestors, or striving to share the gospel.

Once I came to understand that one of Satan's titles is "the accuser of our brethren", I have tried hard not to accuse people.  If my wording here seemed like accusations, this is me revoking them.  I believe that making accusations, especially in ignorance, which would certainly be the case here, can give Satan a way into your heart or mind.  We can live the gospel and encourage others to do the same without making accusations.  We can choose not to pursue brother Rush's interests without accusing brother Rush of anything at all.

[person0]

I am familiar with the Ezra's Eagle interpretation you shared.  I like the idea of it and, to an extent, kind of want it to be true, but that's mostly because I see how wicked the world is becoming and I'm pretty much ready for it to be over and for Christ to come back as soon as possible.  I am curious to see if Biden doesn't finish his term and it gives further credence to the continuation of the theory.  That said, I was under the impression that he had abandoned his theory, but it appears that he made another video as recently as 4 weeks ago.  🤔🤷‍♂️

 

[zil2]

42 minutes ago, person0 said:

That said, I was under the impression that he had abandoned his theory, but it appears that he made another video as recently as 4 weeks ago.  🤔🤷‍♂️

I didn't watch any videos, or even go look for any by this particular guy.  Maybe when he realized Trump wasn't the last short feather before the three heads wake up (which was the error in his book), he returned to the theory with Biden...

43 minutes ago, person0 said:

I like the idea of it and, to an extent, kind of want it to be true, but that's mostly because I see how wicked the world is becoming and I'm pretty much ready for it to be over and for Christ to come back as soon as possible.

Ditto.  Would be quite content for the Second Coming to be sooner than later.  (If that does happen, ask me again in the Millennium whether I was nuts to want to go through all that. )

Meanwhile, in happy news, here are two videos about Klaw's Not-Eagles:

 

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

23 hours ago, zil2 said:

To be fair, I have no idea how brother Rush lives the gospel and I'm not about to speculate against him when I have absolutely no evidence against him.  The observations I made pointed out possible concerns, for which there could be other explanations, and which would require more reading to determine the truth.  That he has chosen to delve into this vision doesn't in any way suggest that he's not magnifying his calling, ministering to others, doing temple work for his deceased ancestors, or striving to share the gospel.

Once I came to understand that one of Satan's titles is "the accuser of our brethren", I have tried hard not to accuse people.  If my wording here seemed like accusations, this is me revoking them.  I believe that making accusations, especially in ignorance, which would certainly be the case here, can give Satan a way into your heart or mind.  We can live the gospel and encourage others to do the same without making accusations.  We can choose not to pursue brother Rush's interests without accusing brother Rush of anything at all.

I was not accusing anyone of anything. It is a general observation on the condition of members in general and my experience with them.

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, person0 said:

I am curious to see if Biden doesn't finish his term and it gives further credence to the continuation of the theory.  That said, I was under the impression that he had abandoned his theory, but it appears that he made another video as recently as 4 weeks ago.  🤔🤷‍♂️

 

I continue to be amazed that I was having this conversation 4 years ago, just about Trump and not Biden.  My buddy was speculating about Trump not finishing his term, and that's how we'd know the theory had merit.  

Anyone want to bet that we can skip forward 8 years, and we'll be having this exact same thread, with the exact same posts being made, with the only change being the current president in 2031 being named instead of Biden?

[zil2]

41 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Anyone want to bet that we can skip forward 8 years, and we'll be having this exact same thread, with the exact same posts being made, with the only change being the current president in 2031 being named instead of Biden?

The logic was wrong with Trump - Rush made an error and apparently whoever was talking about this 4 years ago didn't catch it (check out the vision and the numbers yourself - it shouldn't be hard to reproduce the exact thing I did, or confirm what I did - and I'm not the only one to have found it).

The logic will be wrong if Biden finishes his presidency.  There will be nothing left to talk about - the numbers don't fit any other set of presidencies.  So yeah, I don't see how anyone can still be talking about this 8 years from now unless Biden's presidency is cut short.

The only alternative would be to argue it wasn't about US presidents at all, and find some other "kings" that fit the pattern.

[zil2]

Just now, zil2 said:

Rush made an error

This was not an interpretation or understanding error.  It was a mathematical error - simple counting of 12 + 8 = 20 error - he got to 19 and appeared to forget that 12 + 8 = 20.

[NeuroTypical]

I totally get it @zil2.  But I'm still willing to place the bet.  The capacity of folks to come up with a way of adding 13+8, or 12+9, will put 'em solidly into the realm of looking at the next president.  There'll be 2 errors thought about and talked about.  First 12+8=19, second will be failing to understand somehow that it was supposed to be 13+8 or 12+9 all along.  

I love a good conspiracy or end-times prophecy.   I believe lots of them.  But when I'm at my tinfoil-hat-wearing meetings, I find myself surrounded by people who eat/live/breathe such things, when they should at least order a side of common sense.  To those folks, there's no such thing as a failed conspiracy, just erroneous interpretations.  

(And I don't mean anyone in this thread.  Y'all got more common sense than I do.)

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

second will be failing to understand somehow that it was supposed to be 13+8 or 12+9 all along.  

The vision is very clear about the numbers.  So it's not the numbers that could reasonably change (though I guess people could get stupid about the math again).  It would have to be "it wasn't presidents at all, it was ..."

16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

But when I'm at my tinfoil-hat-wearing meetings, I find myself surrounded by people who eat/live/breathe such things, when they should at least order a side of common sense.  To those folks, there's no such thing as a failed conspiracy, just erroneous interpretations.  

OK, well, theories are all well and good, but nothing should trump simple logic and math.

So, I guess if someone is still talking about this if / after Biden finishes his presidency, they'll be the people who can't reason.  But here, I'll do them a favor: <start conspiracy voice>Biden hasn't been Biden for some time now - they replaced him with a look-alike (or someone wearing a mask, or someone with a good Hollywood make-up job), so Biden's presidency really was cut short even though no one else believes it, and we're just waiting for the big giant head (still can't resist) to wake up and gobble up the next two contenders.</end conspiracy voice>

There, now they can go on yammering about this vision and brother Rush's interpretation thereof until the cows come home (or are stolen by aliens, or the Second Coming happens, whichever).

[person0]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

The logic will be wrong if Biden finishes his presidency.  There will be nothing left to talk about - the numbers don't fit any other set of presidencies.

Not sure if it was this guy or a different guy, but initially, after Trump lost, the interpretation quickly shifted to 'short feather' meaning the presidency/rule was cut short from any perspective.  It was initially suggested that voter fraud and/or election interference sufficient to alter the outcome could be considered a rule cut short.  It was also suggested that a 7 year and 363 day term would still be considered a term cut short.

Where I'm going with all that is to suggest that if Biden wins reelection, we would still have to wait through the next cycle before the proponents would either have to change their interpretation, or choose to abandon the theory.  If Biden loses but finished the full term, they would have to try and come up with a way to suggest that the loss was somehow illegitimate, which would really be pushing it for them since most proponents would consider themselves very conservative and it would be cognitively dissonant to try and suggest a democrat was illegitimately removed.

It just so happens that I just came up with a theory at I could imagine would be proposed:  The Democrats dislike Biden so much that they intentionally helped Trump (or R candidate) win so that they could shift the blame of all the country's problems and plan for R president's assassination, thus ending R president's term short.  Or something like that, haha.

Aside:  I just noticed @zil2 came up with a nice little variant explanation of her own! 🤣

To @NeuroTypical's point, I'm sure there are ways to try and extend the life of the theory, but they will be increasingly harder to sell.  That said, of course, the theory could play out in an obvious way, but how often has such a thing happened, especially considering we don't know what interpolations might exist in the text to modify any of the meaning of the original prophecy.

Oh, well.  I suppose we'll see what happens, lol.