Doctrine and Covenants 93:33

[askandanswer]

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

[laronius]

On 8/15/2024 at 12:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

In short, yes. But this fullness of joy can still be limited by ones willingness to receive it.

D&C 88:32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

[Traveler]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

I have pondered for decades about that which is spirit and that which is physical.  This scripture, though vague, has been a catalyst in my thinking that spirit is comprised of dimensions outside of our physical space time dimensions.   In short, I theorize that our 3-dimensional space + time is intersected by spiritual dimensions.  Since our physical senses are capable of realizing our space time, that which is spiritual is somewhat foreign. 

I do not mind discussing my dimensional theory; however, I have discovered few have a mind for such things and going into details of even why many theoretical physics are considering the effects of other dimensions on our universe – especially in explaining quantum physics and universal field theory.

So it is that my theory and explanation of D&C 93:33 is as we, as beings capable of both physical and spiritual dimensions are able to transcend the limits of our physical space time and permanently extend our intelligence to encompass both our dimensional space time as well as the dimensions of that which is spirit – we (our intelligence) is capable of joy that includes all the physical pleasures as well as that of eternal (beyond the limits of time) the powers and enlightenment of the spiritual dimensions.  The awareness and ability to comprehend and utilize all the dimensions available is that fullness of joy.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. [This applies to the converse -- "receive" in v. 33 means "can receive"].

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. [How can eternal element be destroyed? By refusing the glory of a higher state in favor of receiving the glory of a lesser state. Man is spirit, who has the power to choose element and glory; God has the power of connecting the chosen element and glory. How is man, as spirit, a tabernacle that can be destroyed? By choosing the lesser glory].

[Sal]

On 8/15/2024 at 3:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

Great Study ! Don’t forget that man has a Spirit and Carnal flesh and we have free agency to choose to live by the Spirit or by the flesh in order to live with the fulness of Joy we need to program it in our mind and step out and faith and live it out everyday !

[Traveler]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

 

I am going to add a little bit more to my previous post.  Having been married now for over 50 years I have come to believe that men and women are different and that the difference is much more then physical.  I believe that women are very different kind of spirits.  That there seems to be an element of spirituality with women that is not present in men.

As I ponder this scripture, I consider that there is hints that there is much more written between the lines so to speak.  I believe that this scripture hints (at least to me) that there are elements of marriage included in the concept of spirit and physical elements inseparably connected beyond a resurrection but to include a covenant of marriage as well.  This is not singular but a plurality of marriage and being sealed for eternity.  Not just as a temple ordinance but as a sealing by the both covenant and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I sometimes think that the mission and purpose of the Holy Ghost is sometimes overlooked because we see the roles of the other individuals of the G-d Head – not realizing that salvation and exaltation is not finished and complete without the sealing power of the Holy Ghose.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:41 PM, askandanswer said:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Does this verse teach that when the spirit and body of man are inseparably connected it/they will receive a fulness of joy? And if that is the case, would it then follow that all who are resurrected and thereby inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy?

The scripture implies a prerequisite, not a cause-effect relationship between the two. 

Example:

• I received an engineering degree.  But that did not qualify me as a professional engineer. 
• If I want to be an engineer, then I need that degree first as a prerequisite.  Then I need to also go through some other hoops as well.

In the same vein, merely having a resurrected body does not mean we will have a fulness of joy.  But to have a fulness of joy requires a resurrected body.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Carborendum

[Ratbag]

I think a fulness of joy can only be had in the celestial kingdom.  We are all resurrected, but very few people will go to the celestial kingdom.  Those in lesser kingdoms of glory are eternally damned in their progression; they will never see the face of the Father after their judgment.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:109–112)
 

Then there's those consigned to outer darkness.  They still have a resurrected body, but their eternal suffering definitely is not joyful.

[pam]

3 hours ago, Ratbag said:

I think a fulness of joy can only be had in the celestial kingdom.  We are all resurrected, but very few people will go to the celestial kingdom.  Those in lesser kingdoms of glory are eternally damned in their progression; they will never see the face of the Father after their judgment.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:109–112)
 

Then there's those consigned to outer darkness.  They still have a resurrected body, but their eternal suffering definitely is not joyful.

I totally disagree with you that only a few will make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Ratbag]

11 hours ago, pam said:

I totally disagree with you that only a few will make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

What is your basis for saying that?  The telestial kingdom will be as heavily populated as the sands of the sea.  Heber C. Kimball once speculated that there will be enough space left on this earth once it becomes the celestial kingdom that each person would get 5 acres.  He speculated that only 5% would make it.  BR McConkie thought it might be as high as 10%.  Out of the population that has lived and will yet live, that isn't very many.  

[pam]

14 hours ago, Ratbag said:

What is your basis for saying that?  The telestial kingdom will be as heavily populated as the sands of the sea.  Heber C. Kimball once speculated that there will be enough space left on this earth once it becomes the celestial kingdom that each person would get 5 acres.  He speculated that only 5% would make it.  BR McConkie thought it might be as high as 10%.  Out of the population that has lived and will yet live, that isn't very many.  

Heavenly Father didn't make a plan so that the majority of His children could fail. What kind of loving Father would do that? You mentioned it in your comment. Heber C. Kimball "speculated."  He didn't know. We've learned a lot more since Heber C. Kimball. We need faith and we need to follow Jesus Christ. 

[Ratbag]

8 hours ago, pam said:

Heavenly Father didn't make a plan so that the majority of His children could fail. What kind of loving Father would do that? You mentioned it in your comment. Heber C. Kimball "speculated."  He didn't know. We've learned a lot more since Heber C. Kimball. We need faith and we need to follow Jesus Christ. 

What are your references?  This sound more like traditional doctrine.

[pam]

1 hour ago, Ratbag said:

What are your references?  This sound more like traditional doctrine.

Oh that's okay. I have this strong feeling no matter what I say or what references I provide you will have a counter argument. I believe what I believe and I stand by that. It's kind of been your posting history in the few times you've posted in the last 9 years.

[zil2]

It was very common in my father's generation to believe that few would "make it" to the celestial kingdom.  There are scriptures one could use to support this view - especially the fact that the Lord's people on earth in mortality have always been an extreme minority.  But then we have things like Helaman 5 from this week's study, where a group of very wicked people (who had imprisoned Nephi and Lehi) were converted through a miraculous experience in the years leading up to the Savior's first coming.  How many such experiences might there be in the days leading up to the Second Coming?  How many people will live on earth in the Millennium and "grow up unto the Lord"?  And then there are things like:

Quote

D&C 76:67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.

...describing the celestial glory (see below before you dismiss them as "angels").  And then later a verse describing the telestial:

Quote

D&C 76:109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

I think people remember this one and forget v67.

I think people look around at the world and make assumptions (though my assumption, from that perspective, would make the terrestrial the largest kingdom).  But they don't take into account how few of those around them have had a chance to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ.  They may also not take into account that ours is a dispensation of ever-increasing extremity.

There are other scriptures, such as those linked in footnotes - "wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat".  We are told, for example that the parable of the ten virgins is about the active covenant people of the Lord, suggesting only half of those active will be prepared for the Lord's Second Coming, but then, that's one group of people in a specific generation.  Visions in scripture where the prophet sees heaven opened describe "numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God" (for example) (and before you say those aren't celestial beings, remember, that no unclean thing, including telestial and terrestrial beings, can dwell in the presence of God).

In other words, I think there's enough reason to believe the inhabitants in each kingdom will be innumerable.  Statistics suggest there will be more in the terrestrial than the celestial or telestial, but heaven knows whether earthly statistics hold.  My memory says that those who speculated that the celestial kingdom would have the fewest inhabitants also speculated that the telestial would have the most (but my memory may also not hold).

If God can work miracles among the Lamanites, I suppose He can elsewhere as well.  Barring a prophetic statement that God has revealed the percentages, I'm content to leave the numbers to God while not giving up on any person, even if they seem to my flawed vision to be hopeless.  Claiming that "few will make it" is more likely to discourage than to encourage, I think.  And might be enough to lead some to pride.  Better not to speculate at all, but rather to find ways to lift one another.

[Ratbag]

10 hours ago, pam said:

Oh that's okay. I have this strong feeling no matter what I say or what references I provide you will have a counter argument. I believe what I believe and I stand by that. It's kind of been your posting history in the few times you've posted in the last 9 years.

Yup.  I will always discard traditional doctrine for the truth.  If you had done the research I've done over the past almost 12 years, you would see things differently.  I posted the link to all my files because I want everyone to know and understand the truth.

[askandanswer]

The Plan of Salvation is a great plan because under this plan, we're all winners, except the sons of perdition. Everyone will get what they want. 

[pam]

 Honestly, why do we even care about numbers anyway? What a silly thing to have a debate about. I'm going to worry about myself and hope I make it.  

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, pam said:

 Honestly, why do we even care about numbers anyway? What a silly thing to have a debate about. I'm going to worry about myself and hope I make it.  

I had a bishop tell me we’ll be shocked to see who made it to the CK, but more shocked about who didn’t. 

[NeuroTypical]

Here's a question I've never asked: What's a "fullness" and why should I care?

[laronius]

A couple thoughts on how many "make it."

3 Nephi 14:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat; 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So what's a few? That's a rather relative term and we don't know how broadly it is to be interpreted. For example, a lot of children have died before reaching the age of accountability on this earth. They are saved by virtue of the atonement. Are they included in the "few" or are these verses only specifically speaking of those who live long enough to choose between the narrow and broad paths?

And what about all of God's children on other worlds? I've read nothing that says those worlds are as bad as this one. I mean, we did get Satan after all. So maybe those from this earth that reach exaltation are but a drop in the universal bucket of exalted beings.

I'm sure there are many other variables as well. But my point is that it's impossible to even guess at numbers or percentages.