Lovely LDS post on X

[mikbone]

[laronius]

How I Escaped???

I wonder if these people ever really stop to consider every unique doctrine of our church that they must turn their back on in the process of "escaping." If the promises of the gospel aren't true, what in the world do they think they'll find that will bring contentment?

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, laronius said:

If the promises of the gospel aren't true, what in the world do they think they'll find that will bring contentment?

Sex, drugs, and rock & roll?

ETA: And in the case of the dude in the post, earrings, a necklace, and a new hairdo?

Edited June 20 by zil2

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I wonder if these people ever really stop to consider every unique doctrine of our church that they must turn their back on in the process of "escaping."

Yes. It's frightening trying to rebuild a worldview from scratch, but it's preferable to trying to force yourself to follow a belief system that you don't actually believe in. I personally don't believe that an exit from the church requires a video manifesto, but people find closure in different ways. The LDS Church is extremely social and communal, much more so than most other churches. That's where the "escape" mindset comes from. You're not just leaving a religion, you're leaving an entire community. And again, it's still preferable to going through life faking it.

1 hour ago, laronius said:

If the promises of the gospel aren't true, what in the world do they think they'll find that will bring contentment?

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

- Douglas Adams

No church or religion has a monopoly on happiness, not even yours. If LDS dogma brings meaning to your life, cool. Billions of people are doing just fine without it. 

[NeuroTypical]

12 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Yes. It's frightening trying to rebuild a worldview from scratch, but it's preferable to trying to force yourself to follow a belief system that you don't actually believe in.

I agree it can be. Switching religions or political affiliations - that sort of thing can get people kicked out of families and end relationships. Paths of spiritual or moral growth can be smooth or bumpy, or even traumatic. 

I was born into a church I did not believe in, and stopped going as soon as I could get away with it.  It seemed at the time to be an act of being honest with myself and those around me.  Seeking and finding a testimony in my 20's brought with it this sort of "calm fearful panic", as it dawned on me that all that stuff I had walked away from, I must now intentionally walk towards.  There were quite a number of times when I was totally out of my element, walking towards some new experience full of fear, sometimes even experiencing a pounding heart and close to hyperventilating.  Heading to the bishop's office, telling friends and relatives, getting called to teach my first Sunday school lesson, getting asked to give my first blessing.  Near panic, with the only thing on my side was this sense of "well, either the church is true or it isn't, either God is on my side or He isn't - I guess I'm about to find out one way or the other".  

My 180 on politics, however, was a mostly uneventful no-brainer.  Discovering that there were better things to believe and better worldviews to hold than what my agnostic union democrat upbringing had taught me, really didn't involve any fear.  I think a lot of that was because of the high caliber character of my father.  Although he was ticked off to no end that, from his perspective, the smarter I got at college the dumber I got about things, he didn't seem to take it personally like close family often does.   The beer-drinking gambling foul-mouthed WWII sergeant who mocked religion and anyone to the right of him politically - raised what turned out to be a good little conservative mormon boy.  I never got the sense that he was disappointed in me, even though he had to have been at times.  

 

Fun stuff.

 

 

[HaggisShuu]

The cult accusations always get under my skin. Forgive me Americans, but I'm wondering if Church culture in the land of the free 🦅🇺🇸🦅 can at times be problematic. Because all of these "I escaped a CULT" videos tend to be from America, and the online discourse on whether or not the church is a cult, appears to be discussed between Americans. 
 

In my experience the Church is anything but a cult. My brother in law is homosexual, and inactive. He is loved and respected by his family and not excluded by any measure. On the odd occasion he comes to church to support family by listening to a talk or to witness a calling members of the ward greet him and ask how he is. He was the best man at my wedding. Some cult if you ask me. 
 

I think at worst, the church is a very conservative community with some very unorthodox beliefs when compared to the mainstream, but cult? Sounds like click bait. 

[laronius]

21 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Yes. It's frightening trying to rebuild a worldview from scratch, but it's preferable to trying to force yourself to follow a belief system that you don't actually believe in. I personally don't believe that an exit from the church requires a video manifesto, but people find closure in different ways. The LDS Church is extremely social and communal, much more so than most other churches. That's where the "escape" mindset comes from. You're not just leaving a religion, you're leaving an entire community. And again, it's still preferable to going through life faking it.

A sizeable percentage of those on the membership rolls of our church are not active. They didn't have to "escape" they simply stopped coming. I agree that leaving behind the cultural aspect of the Church requires significant adjustment but this video is not about closure. He is openly engaging our church but now as an antagonist. This is not escaping but attacking.

21 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

 

No church or religion has a monopoly on happiness, not even yours. If LDS dogma brings meaning to your life, cool. Billions of people are doing just fine without it. 

Obedience to God's laws is the only thing that brings lasting joy. So to the extent that anyone obeys God's laws they can receive that joy in proportion. Our Church's mission is to teach a fullness of God's laws so people can receive a fullness of joy, if they so choose it. It's up to them. But we seek for those who are not content being just fine. 

[mikbone]

37 minutes ago, laronius said:

I agree that leaving behind the cultural aspect of the Church requires significant adjustment but this video is not about closure. He is openly engaging our church but now as an antagonist. This is not escaping but attacking.

I don’t really have an allegiance to the cultural aspect of the Church.  Some of my family’s best church memories were during COVID when we had Sacrament meetings in our home.  

And I didn’t spend a second watching this boy’s hour long declaration of weakness.  Everything I needed to know came from the title and screen shot.

Jesus Christ guides this Church.  Not man.  

“choose you this day whom ye will serve⁠; … but as for me and my house⁠, we will serve the Lord⁠.”

[Carborendum]

On 6/19/2025 at 10:00 PM, Phoenix_person said:

... but people find closure in different ways.

I never really understood this concept.  That is to say, I know what the technical definition of closure is:

Quote

the human desire for finality and certainty, particularly in ambiguous or painful situations stemming from a motivation to resolve uncertainty, reduce anxiety, and feel a sense of completion.

But the idea that we can find certainty in life (much less the spiritual realm) is just not realistic especially in highly esoteric subjects.

We can find closure in what we know with the five senses.  But "belief"?  If anyone claims that there is no other worldly sense, then how can we know that it is or is not?  It's a circular self-defeating view.  All we can do is -- express doubt.  There is no certainty because you can't prove a negative.  At best, one can be agnostic.  Yet all too many atheists will mock those who believe.  For all they know, the theists could be correct.

Similarly, most other belief systems end up being circular.  The Bible tells us there is a God so, we know He exists.  We know the Bible is true because it says it is the word of God.

The one major difference in epistemology that the Restored Gospel offers is personal experience via the Holy Ghost.  My x-mo friend was completely honest about this.  He left because after being raised in the Church and giving it a good chance, he realized that he had never felt the Spirit.  That's why he left. 

Assuming that is true (I have no reason to doubt his own words about his own experience) I don't blame him.  Really living this religion requires a lot.  And if you have no certainty after many years of giving it a good try... How can you justify the effort to stay?

Atheists are perfectly welcome do disagree with others' belief systems.  But to claim that they have either moral or intellectual authority over theists seemingly displays a lack of self-awareness.

[Omergideon]

In terms of "escape"........ it is an intentionally dramatic term and frankly I think gives the wrong impression. You are not trapped in any physical sense in the Church. If you want to leave on a simple practical level you can just stop going, send 1 letter to the Bishop asking them to not send anyone around (or remove your name if you genuinely want to) and perhaps a follow up and it is done.

On that practical level saying you escaped feels...... well we probably wanted you to stay and some people will have tried to persuade you but you were not truly trapped.

On a cultural level, it can be very hard for a person to completely overhaul or change their life. I have no plan to leave the Church (I am persuaded it is true for one thing) but even on a basic level I would feel..... kind of adrift on a Sunday without church to go to. I would lose some of my social interactions. I would lose a fairly hefty chunk of my identity. Leaving all of that behind may not be physically difficult but emotionally you bet it can be. And if you have close friends or family who are part of the Church then there can be a lot of pressure to stay and conform (whether intended or not) and telling them you no longer believe is going to be hard. I think escape is the wrong term, but it will be true that it can be a tough thing to do.

And on a personal note, I would say 2 things. First, if you have tried and genuinely do not believe it is true, or genuinely believe the Church is fundamentally wrong, then I think you probably should leave. Don't pretend as that will just do you harm. And if you want to explain to people why you disbelieve then of course that is your right. I only genuinely dislike the critics who are dishonest about the Church, such as clipping 2 seconds from a 20 minute talk to make a leader look bad (as one example, I saw a critic post a quote from Elder Scott that tried to imply he blamed people for being abused...... even the worst faith reading of the whole talk shows that is not true as the talk is replete with comments about how the abused has done nothing wrong and should not feel guilt etc). So long as you are honest we can have a productive conversation (I get as frustrated with Evangelical types who try to tell me what I believe, such as someone saying we earn our way into Heaven, as that is again often bad faith).

As a sub item to the above, don't accuse me of being brainwashed or some nonsense. I know why I believe what I do, you don't.

But for the second thing, I dislike the term "cult" or the modern variant "high-demand religion". Both are just code terms for saying "religion I do not like, but also it's bad". It is not a useful term at all. We are a religion like many others. People who use the term cult to describe us usually do so in bad faith. The term cult is just a pejorative without any meaningful content except as a cudgel to say "boooooo" at a religion. 

[mrmarklin]

On 6/19/2025 at 8:00 PM, Phoenix_person said:

 

No church or religion has a monopoly on happiness, not even yours. If LDS dogma brings meaning to your life, cool. Billions of people are doing just fine without it. 

No monopoly on happiness, perhaps, but comparing the lifestyle of the average believing LDS, it is very difficult to think that billions are doing just fine without it. 

Most of us are not doing fine. 

[LDSGator]

18 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Most of us are not doing fine. 

I used to think that everyone was living with sadness and anxiety. After all, Thoreau said it best when he said “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation.” 
 

I was wrong. 
 

While bad things happen to everyone, many people lead happy, fulfilled lives. It might be a bitter pill for some to accept-but life isn’t full of despair and dread for a lot of us. 

[mrmarklin]

6 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I used to think that everyone was living with sadness and anxiety. After all, Thoreau said it best when he said “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation.” 
 

I was wrong. 
 

While bad things happen to everyone, many people lead happy, fulfilled lives. It might be a bitter pill for some to accept-but life isn’t full of despair and dread for a lot of us. 

I'm taking a much wider view than you seem to  be doing.  A large portion of the world lives in what we in the US would consider abject poverty.  Having served a mission in a third world country, and having visited poorer countries I have seen how a simple thing like church membership and obedience to the gospel can help people live better lives.  This goes for what we think of as first world countries as well.  Many problems could be avoided in our own country by obedience to gospel principles.  Think homelessness, drug addiction, alcoholism, abuse of all types, crime, etc. etc.  These are problems for millions of people right here in the US.  They are not doing "fine".

Even in our own congregations there are a lot of problems among so-called active members.  And since only around 40% of us are active, consider the levels of "not fineness" that must exist in the less active.

Of course, not everyone experiences cataclysmic problems, but the Church gives one a good head start to avoid them.

Edited Wednesday at 09:27 PM by mrmarklin

[LDSGator]

11 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

They are not doing "fine".

Sure. The world is a complicated place, and there are people who are struggling. Agree. 

 

12 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Many problems could be avoided in our own country by obedience to gospel principles

That’s where we agree-sort of. The world would be a better place if we followed the gospel, but even people who follow those rules religiously (pun intended) will still have problems like depression, loved ones dying, etc. 

 

But, and like I said, I know it’s a bitter pill, there are people out there (both religious and not) who are actually happy. 

[NeuroTypical]

I think just about the coolest thing I've seen come out of my church, is our temple construction going on in nations living in destitute poverty.   Nigeria, Venezuela, Philippines, Peru, Argentina, Brazil and others - these have GDP per capita of somewhere between $5k/yr and $10k/yr.  Places that couldn't hope to afford a temple on their own.

Temples are, especially in poorer nations, massively expensive undertakings that can have a great permanent economic impact on the surrounding communities.  

Think the parable of the Widow's mite, but we go build the widows their own temple.

 

[HaggisShuu]

8 hours ago, LDSGator said:

That’s where we agree-sort of. The world would be a better place if we followed the gospel, but even people who follow those rules religiously (pun intended) will still have problems like depression, loved ones dying, etc. 

 

Even then, the Church is filled with wicked people. I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking Mormon = good. Some of the most difficult and hypocritical people I know of are members of the church. 
 

The handbook even has a section on "Affinity Fraud" because some foolish saints think "Ah yes, Mormon = Good. I will give you large sums of money." Not realising they've been scammed. Such a section wouldn't exist if it wasn't a real issue. 
 

Generally the world would be a better place if everybody followed the gospel. But fantasising about such, feel alot more like Satan's plan. 

Edited 18 hours ago by HaggisShuu

[LDSGator]

8 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Even then, the Church is filled with wicked people. I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking Mormon = good. Some of the most difficult and hypocritical people I know of are members of the church. 
 

The handbook even has a section on "Affinity Fraud" because some foolish saints think "Ah yes, Mormon = Good. I will give you large sums of money." Not realising they've been scammed. Such a section wouldn't exist if it wasn't a real issue. 
 

Generally the world would be a better place if everybody followed the gospel. But fantasising about such, feel alot more like Satan's plan. 

Yup, all true. Utah is famous for MLM schemes, anti depressant use and affinity fraud. It’s very sad.

[LDSGator]

8 hours ago, HaggisShuu said:

Generally the world would be a better place if everybody followed the gospel. But fantasising about such, feel alot more like Satan's plan. 

Missed this. Agree 10,000% again. 

[HaggisShuu]

20 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Yup, all true. Utah is famous for MLM schemes, anti depressant use and affinity fraud. It’s very sad.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of this. 
Maybe this is a UKism, but my wife (and alot of my ward) are of the belief that prior to the ushering in of the Millennium, Utah will be one of the most wicked places on earth. I'm not sure of the veracity of this belief.
 

Supposedly, there were some prophetic statements from Joseph Smith indicating the church would ultimately become home to apostasy, and I hardly think modern saints are immune from the pattern of secret combinations destroying the church found in the book of Mormon. 

[LDSGator]

5 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

Maybe this is a UKism,
 

 

Understand this totally.
 

I’m a convert and I live in Florida, so I’m unaware of social norms and all the prophecies/teachings that the church has had.  

[estradling75]

15 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

Hmm, I wasn't aware of this. 
Maybe this is a UKism, but my wife (and alot of my ward) are of the belief that prior to the ushering in of the Millennium, Utah will be one of the most wicked places on earth. I'm not sure of the veracity of this belief.
 

Supposedly, there were some prophetic statements from Joseph Smith indicating the church would ultimately become home to apostasy, and I hardly think modern saints are immune from the pattern of secret combinations destroying the church found in the book of Mormon. 

There are passages about the Second Coming where it is talked about needing to cleanse the inner vessel (aka church) before focusing on the outer (Aka the World).
We also have to be careful because God seems to Judge on a relative score rather then an absolute one (Greater Light = Greater Condemnation).. So the church does not have to be some grossly wicked group to get hit hard... just not living up to what we should be doing 

[LDSGator]

21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

just not living up to what we should be doing 

That worries me. 95% of LDS are way too hard on themselves. What more do you want from them?