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With respect to the article, the author sounds like a teenage bride. She has promise though. Give her ten years and perhaps she'll be able to articulate more mature and profound ideas. The core of what she's getting at is something I've seen discussed before. The "modest is hottest" slogan fails in that it still places cultural expectations on behavior over individuality. And it still places physical attraction over personality.

While my wife and I were raising our family we took to white water rafting as an activity and for what is now 20 years we have annually taken a week long camping rafting trip. As our children grew older friends were invited to join us and as our children became involved in courtships future partners join us. It is interesting what a week camping without a shower or bath does to one's appearance. Not to create stereotypes but the individuals that are much to do about "looks" are usually so wrapped up in maintaining themselves that they are not much help with the communal chores needed to keep the rigorous activities going. In short the purity little girls that keep their makeup perfect are a pain and a bother. Plus; until the make is fixed just right they are not so stunning. Some popular boys also become a pain. It is interesting that many "good looking" individuals expect to be treated for their looks rather than their general contributions. It was often interesting to watch the plain ladies that during the week became much more popular with the guys and how that affected the dynamics of the social pecking order. More than once an engagement was broken. It became kind of a litmus test for our children and their friends to bring prospective partners on the river. One of my sons is involved in the Hollywood seen and a number of Hollywood types have joined us on the river with mixed results. One Hollywood lady had never been camping and without makeup fell in love with the adventure - and changed her whole outlook on life. One fellow after the adventure commented with amazement how some people after the week are not so fun and how some - even their looks start to grow on you. As a side note - my wife and daughters all look stunning with or without makeup and my daughters are to this day the best river guides. Both daughters married alpha males but on the river there is no doubt who is in charge. But the biggest joke is how it is that my wife - so obviously hot - ended up with such a nerd that is 1/4 inch shorter than her.

You are right, though I would more say I see it as not for me, though I can see the good in it. All the people I met were kind and friendly, I can't remember ever being in a place with such little to no animosity. And this is a town where outsiders are shunned, so they were really filling the love and kindness the rest of the people here just don't have.

So...ugly people are doomed to a sucky life huh?

To be hot, a desire to be hot, a desire to be seen as hot, etc., is rooted in vanity. Modesty is rooted in humility. They are, at their core meaning, opposites.

SS is right in this case though. Children cannot sin. Pointing out that children lie is not valid. It's like pointing out that babies poop in their diapers. Children do "wrong" things all the time. That is not debatable. Everyone knows that. The point is that when children do wrong things it is NOT sin. For sin to be sin, accountability is required. No accountability -- no sin.

I agree that everyone should make such effort. It is the why they should make the effort that I'm concerned with.

Not true - I have a wonderful wife and life!!

you can't beat a slogan, no matter how hard you try!

They might be. If only there was some way to instill a culture that valued other aspects of attractiveness than what's shown by Madison Ave. Something like "It's more attractive (maybe even most attractive) to carry the quiet confidence that is borne by knowing you are a child of God with a divine nature - to wear your self-respect like it was the latest fashion (for ultimately, it is the finale of fashion)." Yeah, that's good. Now how can I make it catchier?.... Maybe something like "mode-" aw crap!!

Why does that not surprise me? :)

At first I thought this was going to be an anti-modesty rant...and I was all riled up to respond. But I actually totally agreed with it. Very interesting.

If you are looking for a spouse who shares your values, then the lds church is certainly worth a try. At the very least you will meet people who have similar values. You may not meet the "one" but you may meet someone who introduces you to the "one". suggestion: look up lds.org, go to find a meeting, attend church, ask missionaries to introduce you to young single adult rep, attend activity, make some friends. Good luck!

You are one sick puppy. But thank you. That proves I never used the word complain.

Right there Pam, see, you know you said, right there.

Iggy, Its all good. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. All the things I listed caused stress and stress...well....you know. :)

Addiction and Abuse Often times two or three of them combine.... In the OP's case I would argue that multiple bouts of infidelity, coupled with pornography problems constitute Addiction (to behaviors), Abuse (where the spouse/and family are negatively impacted), and of course Adultery.

Can't mention Rush without the picture!!!

Well of course I can control it, I can control myself in speech (eg not swearing when I am at church), and yes I can change. Of course I can. I think by admiting that I do have faults there is the first step to a grand change.

See, that's the thing. It's not about what you need. Or, rather, it should not be about what you need. You sitting next to others should have nothing to do with whether you need to be near others. It should be about you trying to fill other's needs, serve and love them, and an effort to help them feel loved so that you can be an instrument in building the kingdom and bringing others closer to Christ. Just wanting to be by oneself is understandable, surely. And there is a time and a place. Church is not that time and place. Honestly, going to church with that attitude will harvest much less to your soul that what it could. I'm not suggesting you run faster than you are able. Only that you (and all of us) continually choose to work towards a mindset of this nature. That is, perhaps, the primary way we will come to know Christ. There is a reason the 2nd greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. It is a great part of the means whereby we learn to fulfill the 1st commandment, and the means whereby we learn to know the Savior, for only doing as He would do can we begin to understand Him.

Agree. Constant negativity is very off-putting and gets old quite quickly.

Then why continue to use this site where we work hard to promote LDS values as a podium to constantly vent what doesn't work for you as far as LDS go? If you are already aware that it doesn't work for you?

Could it be that you have this perception because, as evidenced by the title of the thread, you only have negative ideas regarding anything that might be related to LDS culture?

Quin, I agree that marriage is a very complex animal that encompasses all the many things that you listed. There are many strong marriages that can go through that list and highlight several areas where they've greatly struggled. It's also very tough to try to deconstruct that entire marriage to the point of posting on a forum without turning it into a book. I don't think it's oversimplifying so much as trying to cut to the chase. There also is the concept of a dealbreaker. A dealbreaker is something within a marriage so important that if it happens (or in this particular thread isn't happening) it's just cause for termination of the relationship. Adultery is the classic example. For many people, that's a dealbreaker. Everything else on your list could be 100% perfect, but if one partner commits adultery, it's over. Though I think we can all agree that if adultery has happened, the other stuff on the list can't be 100% perfect. Which I think is the heart of what you were saying, you can't just break it down to one thing. However, the dealbreaker is what turns an unhappy marriage into an unacceptable marriage. Now what may be a dealbreaker for one person, may not be a dealbreaker for another. For some couples, adultery is a dealbreaker, but others are able to move past adultery and return to a strong relationship. But like you said, it takes BOTH parties working together to fix it. So what's a guy to do if the other party is either unwilling or unable to work toward fixing it? Then what? Getting back to the dilemma of the OP and myself. What if you fell like you've done everything you can to try to fix the relationship only to see your spouse unwilling or unable to work on it? If a sexless marriage is a dealbreaker, where do you go from there?

I agree with Anddenex. Return from Tomorrow hardly constitutes doctrine. Same appetites and passions. Yes. I'm sure there are other sources...but for a quick one from Gospel Principles - chapter 41: They have the same appetites and desires that they had when they lived on earth. But I think appetites needs to be qualified. I do not think it can apply to mortal appetites of the physical world. Otherwise we will all be walking around in the spirit world craving food all the time whether we are righteous or not. Maybe. But I think it refers more to the idea that we will still desire good or evil at that point, more than specific cravings for chocolate or the like.