Church to build 32-story apartment building in Philadelphia?

[Drpepper]

Im not going to tell the Lord how to spend his money, and for all i know maybe he needs somewhere to stay in philly when he visits. But in my weak, finite, mortal perspective I do sometimes scratch my head and think.. ummm

I might add, it is a nice looking building.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Drpepper

[Irishcolleen]

If you're in Chicago, then all bets are off--I remember a law professor who had practiced there explaining to us that when deciding whether to take a case to trial, one of the things they had to seriously consider back there was whether the judge was known to be on somebody's payroll.

That said--where the system is working, it shouldn't be an issue of a small business suing Wal-mart. It's a matter of reporting a criminal offense--same as reporting a stolen car or a convenience store holdup.

I laughed but the situation here is bad. It's one reason why I hope the hubby gets a job in Utah ASAP!

[Sharky]

Good Afternoon Jenamarie. I hope you are having a good day! :)

Consider this: Someone is going to have to build these structures. I can't think of many things that helps poverty more than having a steady job that provides a good income.

-Finrock

I was recently in Philly. We had the chance to go visit the stepkids & step grandkids, so we went.

Most are in south Philly, they were raised there & are inner city kids.

2 of the step-granddaughters, however, are actually living in a "faith based" women's shelter in the Center City area.

The shelter specializes in single mothers in crisis ... providing them housing & job training, child care, basic life skills classes, etc.

We arrived at the shelter facilities to meet these 2 granddaughter & their babies & I immediately commented about how one could almost think it was LDS based, except there was nothing anywhere mentioning the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS .... none-the-less, we soon figured out & then asked one of the "volunteers" (a church service missionary) & we knew for certain ... that this "faith-based" women's crisis center is in fact operated by the LDS Church.

The identity of the Church is not readily visible & the gospel is not taught out-right because they desire every single woman in need to feel comfortable there regardless of their background or religious beliefs.

As I think back at the brief but insightful history of the Philly Temple, I realize that there is much much more then simply a Mormon temple at issue here.

The Philadelphia Temple had gone thru all the approval processes & groundbreaking was set when a city redevelopment agency filed suit to stop the temple based on the parcel of land being "essential" to the economic vitality of Center City area.

How the suit came to be withdrawn I can not & will not speculate .... though I know that the LDS Church is very present in the area, much much more so then most people realize.

So while the church may be looking at some additional development with the potential to revitalize the area economically ... the church has already stepped in "behind the scenes" to help provide some very basic and badly needed services.

Such behind-the-scene efforts are simply not as visibly connected to the LDS Church as we in the LDS faith are accustomed to seeing.

[bytebear]

I can totally see why the church is building this. Most temples are in residential areas. Newer temples are built with a chapel and a Mission President's home on the property. it makes sense in an urban area to build some kind of housing in keeping with the neighborhood. So, why not build an apartment building and have it be open to whoever. I am sure several apartments will be set aside for the Mission President and other church leaders or members who need a place to stay. The Los Angeles Temple has apartments behind it owned by the church. I believe it is entirely filled with missionaries and temple workers. In fact, I don't think you can live there unless you are in full time church service. So, why not open this space to non-Mormons?

Second, they have a vested interest in keeping the area nice. They can ensure that a smoke shop, adult bookstore, or other unsavory business will open up next to the temple.

And I agree that the church is giving people jobs, and helping the economy. And although the church could use all it's money to feed the poor, it's better to build a system that produces more wealth. And as to helping the poor, that's our job as individuals, not the churches. Why do you think we volunteer at canneries, and why we give fast offerings, and why do we have Helping Hands. It'd be a lot easier just to give a bunch of money to the Salvation Army or the Red Cross. The church isn't just about helping the poor, but it's about teaching its members how to help the poor.

Oh, and the Humanitarian Aid program is just one of many. The $1.5B is only money for that program. It does not count fast offerings, perpetual education fund, etc, etc. The LDS Church (members) gives far more than $150M a year both in money and in service. Truth be told, in 1985, the church was so efficient in taking care of its own, it had enough to start helping out the world.

Edited February 21, 2014 by bytebear

[Vort]

Sad to say, Sharky, but your story contradicts the commonly held belief that the "corporate LDS Church" is all about revenue maximization, and therefore is likely to be dismissed with a wave of the hand. But I appreciated the insight.

[Sharky]

Sad to say, Sharky, but your story contradicts the commonly held belief that the "corporate LDS Church" is all about revenue maximization, and therefore is likely to be dismissed with a wave of the hand. But I appreciated the insight.

Vort, sometimes I too find myself being a bit cynical ... taking an attitude that the Church does what is necessary to get their temple plans pushed thru the approval channels as quickly as possible. Very much a participant in the "corporate" world of this for that.

[Colirio]

Over the years I have worked on various temples in the US and in several other countries. I will tell you that it is not uncommon for the church to buy the land surrounding the temple and invest in apartment housing and other commercial ventures.

The first time I saw this was about 12 years ago (?) when the first presidency was very concerned about the Ogden, Utah temple. The surrounding neighborhood had begun to fall into a state of disrepair and they were concerned about the criminal element that had been popping up around it. In their talks with the city, they discovered that Ogden also had a housing problem at that time and so they ultimately chose to build an apartment complex across the street from the temple. Likewise, they attracted other investors to rebuild the area where Ogden City Mall had been abandoned.

Since that time, church officials recognize that any city and area can fall on hard economic times and that they often preemptively purchase the lands surrounding the temples "just in case."

In order to decide what will be built, there is obviously a lot of prayer that goes into the decision making process, but there is also much discussion with the local municipalities to decide what the needs are for that specific community. Stimulating local economic growth, creating local job opportunities, and attracting new attention to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ... What better ways could the church possibly help a community than by these things?

From the New York Times:

Alan Greenberger, the city’s deputy mayor for economic development, said the temple and the planned Mormon housing and retail complex — which would be built on a parking lot — occupy two “unspoken for” blocks between the business district and the northern section of the city.

He praised the church for taking a step that private developers were less likely to tackle, that is, committing to such a project without more evidence of economic vitality in the surrounding neighborhood.

“Most developers are followers,” Mr. Greenberger said. “Few are pioneers, and the Mormons are pioneers by religion.”

[Backroads]

As a lifelong Ogden resident, I can't tell you just how wonderful the development around the temple has been for the city.

I hope the same for other temple areas.

[Vort]

As a lifelong Ogden resident, I can't tell you just how wonderful the development around the temple has been for the city.

Were you happy about the temple redesign, or do you wish it had remained as it was originally built? Provo lost its twin, which is kind of sad.

[Wingnut]

Were you happy about the temple redesign, or do you wish it had remained as it was originally built? Provo lost its twin, which is kind of sad.

Provo lost its symbolism a few years back anyway.

[Backroads]

Were you happy about the temple redesign, or do you wish it had remained as it was originally built? Provo lost its twin, which is kind of sad.

I'm fine either way. Personally, I didn't mind its old design.

However, I was adamant about getting married in the Ogden Temple before it closed. It was a strange wish based on me feeling sorry for the temple and its unpopularity in the beauty contests and the thrill of having the "old" temple in my photos.

[Janadele]

It is a wonderful idea for the LDS Church to develop near the Temples... I wish they could do so in Australia.

[prisonchaplain]

If this church is true, then why would real estate investment be troubling? If it is not true, is focusing on how a church's finances work proving a point or engaging in secondary distractions?

[Guest]

If this church is true, then why would real estate investment be troubling? If it is not true, is focusing on how a church's finances work proving a point or engaging in secondary distractions?

You are a wise one, PC. By the way, did you get my PM?

[Quin]

Because we can still catch malaria from Mosquitos!

Truth doesn't always equal comfort.

Q

[mnn727]

I'd much rather see more $$ going into helping the poor and needy, and the poor and needy don't need shiny new high-rises.

Giving money, food, services, etc does nothing to lift the poor out of poverty. In fact the argument can be made that it keeps them there.

Whereas something like this, or a mall, or other 'for profit' projects adds jobs to the economy, and those getting the jobs then buy: food, clothes, housing, etc from others which stimulates the economy, which then helps employ others which helps raise others, including the poor who now can find a job or get more hours at the one they already have.

You do no one a favor by giving them something for nothing.

[RMGuy]

Giving money, food, services, etc does nothing to lift the poor out of poverty. In fact the argument can be made that it keeps them there.

Whereas something like this, or a mall, or other 'for profit' projects adds jobs to the economy, and those getting the jobs then buy: food, clothes, housing, etc from others which stimulates the economy, which then helps employ others which helps raise others, including the poor who now can find a job or get more hours at the one they already have.

You do no one a favor by giving them something for nothing.

Luke 18:22-23.

Jesus seems to disagree with you.

[Just_A_Guy]

I wouldn't go so far as to imply almsgiving is useless, RMGuy; but I think the story in Luke that you cite is better understood as an Abrahamic test for the rich young ruler rather than a pronouncement about the long-term efficacy of immediate almsgiving versus long-term investment /economic development that is geared towards funding, among other things, private-sector programs targeted towards the root causes of poverty.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

Also, just a couple of calculations in case my pet Church-loses-nonprofit-status scenario comes to pass:

The Church has 13,000 congregations in the US. Assume an average of 2.5 congregations per meetinghouse--that's 5,200 meetinghouses. Let's assume an average of 4 acres per meetinghouse-that's 20,800 acres.

Now, my house sits on a fifth of an acre in Lehi, Utah, and I paid $1,500 in property taxes last year. Assuming we have a constant tax-per-acre rate nationwide, that's $7,500/acre. So the Church will need to generate another $156 MILLION per year, just to meet its US property tax burden--and that, on TOP of suddenly having to pay a 40% corporate income tax (say goodbye to $2 billion of the Church's estimated $5 billion annual revenue), and having a further decline in revenues as members realize their tithing is no longer tax deductible as a charitable contribution.

We're going to NEED the "filthy lucre" generated by those profit-generating entities--every single cent of it.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[McLainDow]

*sigh* This makes me so uncomfortable. WHY is so much money being put into building projects? Why not build a hospital, or some homeless shelters? Yes, I KNOW the church also does humanitarian stuff too, but it seems like a WHOLE lot more $$ is going into NON-humanitarian stuff, and I don't care if it's my tithing money or not, I'd much rather see more $$ going into helping the poor and needy, and the poor and needy don't need shiny new high-rises.

Ever since I walked through the new mall in Salt Lake with "Your Sex Takes Me to Paradise" blaring over the sound system, the business side of the church has made me feel increasingly uncomfortable.

You bring up some very good points. Playing inappropriate music in a building built with The Lord's money is probably not best practice. Thoughts?

[lagarthaaz]

Reasons for urban development around temples.

FYI: Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

I think the church has realized the need to keep surrounding areas of temples protected from problems of urban blight, as I read happened some time ago with the Johannesburg, South Africa temple. I can't remember where, but I'm sure I read a while ago that the Johannesburg temple actually closed down at one point because of problems with crime in the area and attacks on patrons who were perceived as being 'rich'? I've heard similar accounts from friends who have served missions in countries where money is scarce for most people, and the members are at risk because they are viewed as having links to 'rich Americans'. Some investment in infrastructure is needed to the surrounding areas of temples to prevent these problems I imagine.

As someone who has only been a visitor to the SLC temple, I remember some years ago feeling quite outraged at the disrespectful 'protesters' at weddings, and pan-handlers sitting right there at the entrance to Temple Square, and what I perceived to be the general run-down appearance and atmosphere of SLC. I do recall wondering why the church didn't do something with the real-estate in the area...

With that said, I'm still not comfortable with the amount of money the church spends on real-estate in general...even if I do understand some of the reasons behind it.

Edited February 22, 2014 by lagarthaaz

[Just_A_Guy]

You bring up some very good points. Playing inappropriate music in a building built with The Lord's money is probably not best practice. Thoughts?

My memory's hazy (I've only been there twice) but I don't think they typically have music playing over the mall's PA system--it's a semi-outdoor mall, and I'm not even sure there is such a system in place. I can more easily visualize music being blared out of one particular store--and that would be a landlord-tenant issue.

Jenamarie can probably elucidate or correct me, though. Even if it did come from a mall-wide PA system, I'll bet one or two well-placed phone calls would have remedied the situation.

[prisonchaplain]

You are a wise one, PC. By the way, did you get my PM?

Check your messages. I found the email in my SPAM box, put it in the regular box, attempted to reply, but delivery failed. So, I copied and pasted it into a message to you, within the LDS.net environment. Let me know if you get it. This topic might even make for an interesting string.

[McLainDow]

Another concern I would have is would living in a place like this discourage members from having relationships with non members?

[pam]

My memory's hazy (I've only been there twice) but I don't think they typically have music playing over the mall's PA system--it's a semi-outdoor mall, and I'm not even sure there is such a system in place. I can more easily visualize music being blared out of one particular store--and that would be a landlord-tenant issue.

Jenamarie can probably elucidate or correct me, though. Even if it did come from a mall-wide PA system, I'll bet one or two well-placed phone calls would have remedied the situation.

I've been to City Creek Mall numerous times and I've never heard music over the PA system. Individual stores had some music playing but I didn't hear it over the entire mall.