Excommunication

[CityGirl22]

I want to understand the reasoning and "why" the LDS church would need to excommunicate a member. I understand if you commit murder or adultery  but why is it necessary to revoke their membership number? and exactly what else does it entail when someone is excommunicated?

 

[Vort]

I can think of two obvious reasons to excommunicate someone:

1. To protect other members. The Church is a fellowship of Saints, literally the kingdom of God on earth. Having a "wolf in the fold" endangers all the other members. If a person is a predator, e.g. someone who preys on children, he or she must be separated from the community for the sake of others. Similarly, a spiritual predator who pretends to be one of the sheep but in reality seeks to destroy the spiritual commitment of others, must not be allowed to proceed unimpeded in his or her evil designs.
2. In a sense, to protect the person himself or herself. We make covenants with God, and it is through our covenants that we are saved. Few people keep those covenants perfectly, so repentance is made available to us. But what of a person who freely violates covenants without any intention of keeping them? This is mockery of God, and serves actually to condemn the person. Better not to have any convenants at all than to openly defy your covenants. Thus, excommunication is a way to free a person from saving covenants that he or she is violating, and so are using to destroy themselves.

There are probably other good reasons, but these two seem obvious to me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

CityGirl, 

 

Even though we tend to think of excommunication as punitive, I don't think that is the intent of our Father in Heaven, rather I think it is a loving gesture intended to help the person repent.  I'll explain.

 

First of all, I don't think excommunication is very common. I have known a couple incidences where I was surprised the person did not get excommunicated.  That tells me the process is highly individual.

 

Second, excommunication is very private.  The only way you would know that a person is excommunicated is if you are one of their spiritual leaders, i.e. a need to know basis, or they tell you themselves.

 

Third, I've never heard of anyone who has not been to the temple being excommunicated.  This is important because we make covenants in the temple.  Covenants that the Lord does not take lightly.  In this way, I liken excommunication to a spiritual bankruptcy.  Bankruptcy is a very painful thing to go through (been there done that), but in the end, it is a relief.  The person is relieved of their debts.  They get a fresh start, a clean slate.  They are no longer bound by previous financial commitments.  Sure it will take a long time before anyone gives them credit again--and that is as it should be.  Excommunication "frees" a person from the covenants that they have made with God, and are not keeping.  Being freed from those covenants prevents them from further damning themselves.  The person who is excommunicated can choose to use this as a fresh slate and repent and return to the Lord, or they may continue in their sin without the added condemnation of their covenants.

 

Finally, all organizations and groups have rules for inclusion.  If you want to be a member of the group, you have to abide the rules.  I'm thinking now of people who are excommunicated for apostasy. I don't mean losing ones testimony, but actually speaking against the church and trying to persuade others to believe in the same way.  Can you think of ANY organization that would permit that?  There is a reason that treason is considered one of the most serious and heinous things a citizen of any country can do.

 

Remember that excommunication is not final.  A person who is excommunicated, is able---is invited to participate in the repentance process and eventually become a member with all one's blessings (baptism and temple covenants) restored.

[NeuroTypical]

I want to understand the reasoning and "why" the LDS church would need to excommunicate a member. I understand if you commit murder or adultery  but why is it necessary to revoke their membership number? 

 

The reasons for excommunication are threefold:

- Protect the flock

- Help the member repent and come unto Christ

- Protect the integrity of the church

 

The third one is often misunderstood, but basically, consider what kind of church would let an unrepentant child molester remain a member in good standing.  Or a person who embezzled funds from widows.  Or someone out trying to win the award for most women bedded.  

 

Excommunication doesn't have to be permanent.  In fact, we'd all rather it be temporary.  

[JimmiGerman]

I want to understand the reasoning and "why" the LDS church would need to excommunicate a member. I understand if you commit murder or adultery  but why is it necessary to revoke their membership number? and exactly what else does it entail when someone is excommunicated?

 

When you're acting and agitating against the church and make others unsure in their faith and, thus, bring them away from their faith, then you might be excommunicated, if -at last- you won't return and give up your undertakings and ignore the warnings the church has sent to you. The ultima ratio - the last resort.

 

It's not alone for the sake of the institution, but for the sake of the members of the church.

Edited December 29, 2014 by JimmiGerman

[Just_A_Guy]

I doubt an excommunicated member has their membership number revoked; and I strongly doubt their membership record is ever truly "gone"--there must be some means the Church has of tracking excommunicated members in case they later apply for re-baptism.

[omegaseamaster75]

 

Save the Souls of Transgressors

The first purpose of Church discipline is to save the souls of transgressors by helping them repent (see D&C 1:31–32; 19:13–20; 42:37; 64:12–13). When people do not repent, they are exposed to the demands of eternal justice (see Alma 34:16). When they exercise faith unto repentance, God forgives them, granting mercy through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (seeAlma 42:23; D&C 58:42). Through this process, they may again become clean and worthy to inherit the kingdom of God (see 3 Nephi 27:19; Moses 6:57).

Church discipline can facilitate repentance by helping transgressors recognize and forsake sin, seek forgiveness, make restitution, and demonstrate a renewed commitment to keep the commandments. Informal Church discipline is often adequate for this purpose. However, in some instances the only way to encourage true repentance is to convene a disciplinary council and consider formal discipline. Without formal discipline, some transgressors may never experience the change of behavior and change of heart necessary to qualify them for redemption through the Atonement, for “none but the truly penitent are saved” (Alma 42:24).

 6.1.2

Protect the Innocent

The second purpose of Church discipline is to protect the innocent. With inspiration, a priesthood leader should act to protect others when a transgressor poses a physical or spiritual threat to them, such as by predatory practices, physical harm, sexual abuse, drug misuse, fraud, or apostasy (see Alma 5:59–60).

 6.1.3

Safeguard the Integrity of the Church

The third purpose of Church discipline is to safeguard the purity, integrity, and good name of the Church. Consequently, transgressions that significantly impair the good name or moral influence of the Church may require the action of a disciplinary council.

 

[PolarVortex]

I had always heard that excommunication was not rooted in punishment.  It was sort of like taking away your driver's license if you were convicted of driving while drunk.  It's how the Church forces you to deal with the fact that you are on a path that the Church believes is profoundly harmful to you and to others.

 

I was once part of a group of friends that attended various locally produced comedies and dramas.  Some were great, others not so much.  We once saw "Confessions of a Mormon Boy" by Steve Fales.  (Isn't that surname interesting?)  I was rather bored by the extended blow-by-blow account of his emerging same-sex attraction, but I was fascinated by the description of his excommunication.  He described it as a bunch of kindly LDS personages who were trying to be sympathetic and constructive about something they regarded as a grave sin.  After the last gavel banged, or however they solemnize the excommunication, he said everyone gathered around him to hug him and shake his hand and wish him well and remind him the door back into the Chuch was always open.  During his dramatic performance later, he made jokes about the jovial atmosphere, almost as if it were the farewell lunch for a longtime employee who was leaving the company.  I remember being very jolted by his description, because I had always pictured LDS excommunication procedures as a panel of black-robed, stone-faced men perched on an elevated platform next to the shadow of an enormous noose.  Shows you what I know.

[EarlJibbs]

I doubt an excommunicated member has their membership number revoked; and I strongly doubt their membership record is ever truly "gone"--there must be some means the Church has of tracking excommunicated members in case they later apply for re-baptism.

I agree. How else are you to have all your blessings restored if you are re-baptized if no one has a record of it?

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - and how else is the church going to keep you from teaching primary if you've been convicted of sexual abuse of a minor, and then moved to a new ward.

 

Both are important.

[slamjet]

I doubt an excommunicated member has their membership number revoked; and I strongly doubt their membership record is ever truly "gone"--there must be some means the Church has of tracking excommunicated members in case they later apply for re-baptism.

 

Nope, no revoking of membership number.  They used the same number I've always had during and after my excommunication.

 

Other than that, being ex'd and rebaptised, there's not much else I can add to answer the OP's question.  Others have done a fine job.

[Palerider]

I want to understand the reasoning and "why" the LDS church would need to excommunicate a member. I understand if you commit murder or adultery  but why is it necessary to revoke their membership number? and exactly what else does it entail when someone is excommunicated?

If I am not mistaken there are several other religions that will excommunicate or remove their members from church rolls

[NightSG]

If I am not mistaken there are several other religions that will excommunicate or remove their members from church rolls

 

Most will, especially when there is a pressing need to distance the faith from the person's actions, as in cases of pedophilia or apostasy.  OTOH, most aren't under the same scrutiny as LDS, Catholics and a very few others; when was the last time you heard of a Baptist or Methodist (other than clergy, or small sub-sects like Westboro Baptist) being held up by the media as a representative of their faith when they had committed some unpopular crime, or for that matter, how often do you hear someone's religion mentioned in a crime report?

[pam]

I doubt an excommunicated member has their membership number revoked; and I strongly doubt their membership record is ever truly "gone"--there must be some means the Church has of tracking excommunicated members in case they later apply for re-baptism.

 

It's not. And if and when they are rebaptized, their original baptism date is still their baptismal date.

[FunkyTown]

Excommunication is a tool used to help somebody come to repentance.

That's it.

It is not a punitive measure.

When you are excommunicated, you can still come to church. You simply can't pray in church meetings or hold a calling.

[The Folk Prophet]

Excommunication is a tool used to help somebody come to repentance. That's it. It is not a punitive measure. 

 

These two statements are not mutually exclusive. More accurate would be -- Excommunication is a punitive tool used to help someone come to repentance.

[Palerider]

Which is why they are called Disciplinary Councils....they thought church court sounded harsh. It's all about helping the person so they can repent and start over of the would like to.

[PolarVortex]

So when does something stop being discipline and start being punishment?

[Bini]

I would think convicted murderers and rapists are automatically excommunicated, but from my own experience with my ex-husband (and having known the situation of friends) adultery is not an automatic excommunication. In fact, it never happened for my then husband and I know it never happened in the situation of some of my friends. I'm not sure if it's just a case by case basis, but I'd guess, if they started excommunicating anyone and everyone that has committed infidelity (pornography use or physical affair) the Church would lose a lot of people. Perhaps, adultery is more easily repented of and overcome than killing someone? Who knows. I'd be interested in knowing what will absolutely excommunicate someone.

[Vort]

I personally know a woman who was excommunicated for fornication, specifically for sex with her boyfriend (later husband). I think the deciding factor is whether there is intent to repent or just to keep on living the lifestyle.

[The Folk Prophet]

So when does something stop being discipline and start being punishment?

 

Um...

 

dis·ci·pline

 noun 

1

:  punishment

[PolarVortex]

 

Um...

 

dis·ci·pline

 noun 

1

:  punishment

 

 

Um...

 

Cherry-picking one small part of a secular definition is hardly a proof that these two concepts are identical in the LDS Church.  Discipline can also be defined as behavior or order maintained by training and control, without an element of punishment.

 

If the Church really wanted to punish people, it could do a lot of things besides restricting the privileges of membership or revoking the membership entirely.  Whether excommunication is punishment depends on your definition of "punishment," I guess.  

[The Folk Prophet]

Cherry-picking one small part of a secular definition is hardly a proof that these two concepts are identical in the LDS Church.  

 

Not my point. You're being argumentative for not reason.

 

Whether excommunication is punishment depends on your definition of "punishment," I guess.  

 

Because this is my point.

 

Punished is in the eye-of-the-disciplined.

 

part of a...definition...

 

And also part of my point.

 

But perhaps I should have been more direct in my explanation so as not to confuse you. I'll try again:

 

So when does something stop being discipline and start being punishment?

 

When it's viewed as punishment by the person being disciplined.

[NightSG]

I would think convicted murderers and rapists are automatically excommunicated, but from my own experience with my ex-husband (and having known the situation of friends) adultery is not an automatic excommunication.

 

In theory, nothing results in an automatic excommunication, however there are some acts which, when proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, no rational disciplinary council will consider leniency on short of divine intervention.  (And if angels are dropping by to say "the boss wants you go easy on this one," it's obviously a very special circumstance.)

[Bini]

In theory, nothing results in an automatic excommunication, however there are some acts which, when proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, no rational disciplinary council will consider leniency on short of divine intervention.  (And if angels are dropping by to say "the boss wants you go easy on this one," it's obviously a very special circumstance.)

 

Certainly seems to be the case for fornication and adultery, overall. I can't imagine a convicted murderer or rapist not being excommunicated.