How does the calling hierarchy work within a ward?

[TexasToast]

First off I love and sustain my new bishop and I know that callings ultimately come from the Lord and neither him nor I but I just have a question. 

I'm the EQ Pres and recently the bishop informed me that he was going to need my Seceratary to be released for another calling. I was kinda bummed because our Secretary was really helpful to us but happily obliged. He was then called as a ward mission leader (in a BYU student ward with no non-members, which doesn't diminish the callings inportance). This has happened twice more now. I approached him last Sunday about filling my Secretary role with a EQ teacher and he tells me "Oh sorry, we're planning on calling him for something in the ward too, find someone else". 

Now I know that in the stake level, someone can be called up and the ward essentially loses them, but is that also how it works in the ward? He keeps telling us "There are so many great people! So many people need callings! Give more people callings!" but it seems like he only calls people who already have callings in the Elders Quorum. 

Is that totally normal though? Please don't get caught up in the technicalities of my question. Try and find the general meaning behind my question and, if you don't mind, do your best to respond to it. 

Thanks! 

 

[NeedleinA]

17 minutes ago, TexasToast said:

but is that also how it works in the ward?

Yes. This is how a Ward works also. This happens often, and there is nothing wrong with it. Ideally we would like our people to remain the same and work together like a well oiled machine for years to come. Remember that the Bishop is viewing a bigger picture than any single aux/group/quorum. We smile, call someone else and move on. Good luck!!

[Just_A_Guy]

27 minutes ago, TexasToast said:

Is that totally normal though? Please don't get caught up in the technicalities of my question. Try and find the general meaning behind my question and, if you don't mind, do your best to respond to it.

Assuming that the bulk of callings in your ward were just filled last month when the semester started, it does seem odd that a bishop would already be re-shuffling people who were only a month or so into their current callings.  But like Needle says, there's an awful lot that we just don't--can't--know.

I wouldn't say it's abnormal enough that you should go say "but Bishop, no one else does it this way!!!!"  But I think it's odd enough that you shouldn't live in mortal fear that this is going to be a recurring issue in all of the wards you're ever going to live and serve in.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Jane_Doe]

Have you tried asking your bishop for a list of people who are available? 

[Traveler]

I have tried to find some logic to callings.  I have served in bishoprics and seen the callings from both side and have determined that trying to attach logic to who should have what calling is not a worthwhile endeavor.   I have considered that the L-rd calls those most worthy.  Well I have received enough calling to know that is not true.  I have considered that callings are based on talents – but again there are so many calling that prove this completely false.  Well then perhaps calling are given to help us develop new skills or insights.  Too many examples that is not correct.

The only logic I have been able to come close to making some consistent sense of why G-d wants all his Saints to fulfill callings is that if we did not have callings we would not serve with a proper attitude.  Bishops spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get all his ward members engaged in the divine attitude of service

 

The Traveler

[omegaseamaster75]

58 minutes ago, TexasToast said:

Is that totally normal though?

Yes totally normal, you are not in the "know" so from the outside looking in you feel like you are being stymied.  Trust me you are not, and you are not alone in your feelings.

Ask the ward clerk for a members without callings list. Present 3-5 names to the bishop. If he shoots them all down assign the secretary duties to your second counselor and put the ball in the Bishops court ask him to recommend some names to you. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TexasToast said:

First off I love and sustain my new bishop and I know that callings ultimately come from the Lord and neither him nor I but I just have a question. 

I'm the EQ Pres and recently the bishop informed me that he was going to need my Seceratary to be released for another calling. I was kinda bummed because our Secretary was really helpful to us but happily obliged. He was then called as a ward mission leader (in a BYU student ward with no non-members, which doesn't diminish the callings inportance). This has happened twice more now. I approached him last Sunday about filling my Secretary role with a EQ teacher and he tells me "Oh sorry, we're planning on calling him for something in the ward too, find someone else". 

Yes, I'm afraid that's how it works.  I can sympathize.  I've had various callings where I was to call others under my stewardship.  And each time I had difficulties because the person I wanted to call was reserved for other callings or were quickly switched after I had them.

Fun story:  I served as ward mission leader in a certain ward where all the people I wanted were already slated for other callings.  Then I thought,"Ok.  I recognize that most people know who the hard workers are, who the capable people are, and who the dependable people are.  So, I'll call someone that is considered less dependable and less capable.  But it had to be someone that I could still work with and train and so forth.  So, I asked for that individual to be called.  The bishop agreed that would be ok.

The next couple of weeks went by with my asking if the bishop had interviewed him and extended the call.  He hadn't. As time went on, I was getting somewhat worn because I just couldn't make all the arrangements myself.  Finally, the bishop told me that he had another calling in mind for him.

The thing you need to keep in mind is that you don't actually call anyone to any position.  The bishop does.  You may offer suggestions.  But eventually, he's the one who makes the callings, not you.  That is not your stewardship.

When you make a home-teaching route, you have some delegated authority to make the lists.  But it is actually the bishop's responsibility.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Guest

[Traveler]

Games sometimes are played around callings.  While serving in the bishopric a temple was being built and the youth were having a dance presentation thing.  Each ward was to call a dance specialists to work with the youth in the ward.  The stake put a lot of pressure to get someone called.  We went over it all as a bishopric and we called a lady that was a semiprofessional dancer.  The stake quickly called to the stake position and asked us to call another for a ward representative.   We found someone else and called them to the ward calling.  The stake then took them to serve with the stake.  This happened with 5 representatives we called.  Finely I quit calling someone and the stake had the stake president personally call me to get this calling done.  I told him we were not going to call anyone because the stake kept taking them for the stake – if they really want someone to serve in our ward they could give us back one they had already taken.  We were a very small ward with many unfulfilled positions – including incomplete auxiliary presidencies and I did not feel that we could staff the stake any more.  The Stake President arranged for one of the individuals serving at the stake to return to serve for our ward.

While serving as the scout master a parent called me to complain about things their son said was happing on our campouts.  The son was not the best kid but not the worse either – just a little lazy and did not like being given assignments.  I told the father that nothing was going to change unless or until he came with us on the campouts.  He got a little bent out of shape over that and threatened to have me released.  Over half of my vacation time was spent with the scouts and my wife was not too happy about that.  So I said that if he could get me released it would be a great favor for our family.  I also added that he should volunteer to the bishop to replace me.  I later turned in that dad for a possible assistant scout master – he was called and we ended up friends – we laugh about serving together all the time and threaten each other whenever we get new callings.

There are very few people in the church that do poorly enough at a calling that I want to replace them.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Texas, you could always do what one Primary President would do - have freshly baked cookies delivered to every bishopric meeting along with your list of vacancies and 2-3 names you can think that would be good fits.

I don't think she ever got everything she wanted, but she never got nothing.  Plus - there was absolutely no doubt in the bishopric's mind what she figured her needs were.

[Sunday21]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Texas, you could always do what one Primary President would do - have freshly baked cookies delivered to every bishopric meeting along with your list of vacancies and 2-3 names you can think that would be good fits.

I don't think she ever got everything she wanted, but she never got nothing.  Plus - there was absolutely no doubt in the bishopric's mind what she figured her needs were.

Pure genius. I am filing that one away!

[anatess2]

On 9/13/2016 at 6:29 PM, Traveler said:

Games sometimes are played around callings.  While serving in the bishopric a temple was being built and the youth were having a dance presentation thing.  Each ward was to call a dance specialists to work with the youth in the ward.  The stake put a lot of pressure to get someone called.  We went over it all as a bishopric and we called a lady that was a semiprofessional dancer.  The stake quickly called to the stake position and asked us to call another for a ward representative.   We found someone else and called them to the ward calling.  The stake then took them to serve with the stake.  This happened with 5 representatives we called.  Finely I quit calling someone and the stake had the stake president personally call me to get this calling done.  I told him we were not going to call anyone because the stake kept taking them for the stake – if they really want someone to serve in our ward they could give us back one they had already taken.  We were a very small ward with many unfulfilled positions – including incomplete auxiliary presidencies and I did not feel that we could staff the stake any more.  The Stake President arranged for one of the individuals serving at the stake to return to serve for our ward.

While serving as the scout master a parent called me to complain about things their son said was happing on our campouts.  The son was not the best kid but not the worse either – just a little lazy and did not like being given assignments.  I told the father that nothing was going to change unless or until he came with us on the campouts.  He got a little bent out of shape over that and threatened to have me released.  Over half of my vacation time was spent with the scouts and my wife was not too happy about that.  So I said that if he could get me released it would be a great favor for our family.  I also added that he should volunteer to the bishop to replace me.  I later turned in that dad for a possible assistant scout master – he was called and we ended up friends – we laugh about serving together all the time and threaten each other whenever we get new callings.

There are very few people in the church that do poorly enough at a calling that I want to replace them.

 

The Traveler

Great story, Traveler!

My husband wrote a letter to the Young Men's Presidency about the poor way Scouts is handled in our ward.  A few weeks later, he got called to the young men presidency and a few weeks after that got an additional calling as the scoutmaster.  He is now happy with the way Scouts is handled in our ward.  Hah hah.

 

[Rhoades]

On 9/13/2016 at 4:04 PM, Carborendum said:

The thing you need to keep in mind is that you don't actually call anyone to any position.  The bishop does.  You may offer suggestions.  But eventually, he's the one who makes the callings, not you.  That is not your stewardship.

This needs some correction.  An elders quorum president does extend some callings.  See church handbook 2, chapter 19 in the "Chart of Callings".  It teaches that elders quorum secretaries and instructors are called and set apart by the quorum president or an assigned counselor.  They are:

* Recommended by the the quorum president in consultation with the bishop and the quorum counselors

* Approved by the bishop

* Sustained by quorum members

* Called and set apart by the quorum president or an assigned counselor

After you have approval from the Bishop, you or a counselor should be the one that extends this calling.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rhoades said:

This needs some correction.  An elders quorum president does extend some callings.  See church handbook 2, chapter 19 in the "Chart of Callings".  It teaches that elders quorum secretaries and instructors are called and set apart by the quorum president or an assigned counselor.  They are:

* Recommended by the the quorum president in consultation with the bishop and the quorum counselors

* Approved by the bishop

* Sustained by quorum members

* Called and set apart by the quorum president or an assigned counselor

After you have approval from the Bishop, you or a counselor should be the one that extends this calling.

Is that the precise wording?  See items 1, 2, and 4.  "Called" by the quorum president violates item 1 & 2.  If it is truly the quorum president who calls them, then why does the bishop have to approve it?

Regardless, the calling is, in the end, the bishop's responsibility.

[estradling75]

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Is that the precise wording?  See items 1, 2, and 4.  "Called" by the quorum president violates item 1 & 2.  If it is truly the quorum president who calls them, then why does the bishop have to approve it?

Regardless, the calling is, in the end, the bishop's responsibility.

The Bishop approves... (Because the Bishop is over the ward)  But the Elder's Quorum President should select, (and then once the Bishop gives the Nod) extend the call (aka call them), call for the sustaining vote, and then set apart.

Edited September 15, 2016 by estradling75

[anatess2]

34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Is that the precise wording?  See items 1, 2, and 4.  "Called" by the quorum president violates item 1 & 2.  If it is truly the quorum president who calls them, then why does the bishop have to approve it?

Regardless, the calling is, in the end, the bishop's responsibility.

Okay, this is how I see it...

A Bishop is called by the Stake President.  I would consider this as the Stake President's responsibility even as the calling has to get approval from the First Presidency.  Right?

So, that's why I also see it as the EQP's responsibility even if he gets approval from the Bishop.

But that's just my own limited understanding.

Edited September 15, 2016 by anatess2

[Rhoades]

53 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Is that the precise wording?  See items 1, 2, and 4.  "Called" by the quorum president violates item 1 & 2.  If it is truly the quorum president who calls them, then why does the bishop have to approve it?

Regardless, the calling is, in the end, the bishop's responsibility.

The precise wording includes high priest groups too.  See the "Melchizedek Priesthood Callings" part of the "Chart of Callings" at the end of chapter 19.  Chapter 19 is here: https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/callings-in-the-church/19 

I think the Bishop has to approve of it because the candidates are his ward members and it effects callings throughout the ward.  I'm not sure if there are other reasons.  

I do think the fact that the recommendation is "in consultation with the Bishop" is significant.  Many of the "recommended by" guidelines for aux callings and Aaronic priesthood callings do not have this.  For example, a ward librarian is recommended by "Sunday School president'.  No mention of consultation with Bishop.  Counselors in teachers and deacons quorum presidencies and secretaries are recommended by "Quorum presidents".  No mention of consultation with Bishop.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Rhoades said:

The precise wording includes high priest groups too.  See the "Melchizedek Priesthood Callings" part of the "Chart of Callings" at the end of chapter 19.  Chapter 19 is here: https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/callings-in-the-church/19 

I'm having trouble with the link.  It's sending me into a feedback loop.  But I get your point.

[pam]

On 9/13/2016 at 1:17 PM, Traveler said:

   I have considered that the L-rd calls those most worthy. 

I have to disagree with this.  Being called to something doesn't mean you are the most worthy person to fulfill that calling.  Every calling I've had I could name off numerous people who I thought were more worthy than me.  But we are called for different reasons.  Sometimes it's to help the person called turn a weakness into a strength.

[Guest MormonGator]

53 minutes ago, pam said:

  Every calling I've had I could name off numerous people who I thought were more worthy than me

@pam-In the book Prince Caspian, Aslan (who is like a Christ figure) is about to coronate Caspian. Aslan asks him "Are you ready?". Caspian says "No." Aslan says "Good, because if you said yes you wouldn't be." Aslan knew Caspian was much more ready for the throne than even he (Caspian) knew. Same with you probably. You have skills and talents you may not see.  

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, pam said:

I have to disagree with this.  Being called to something doesn't mean you are the most worthy person to fulfill that calling.  Every calling I've had I could name off numerous people who I thought were more worthy than me.  But we are called for different reasons.  Sometimes it's to help the person called turn a weakness into a strength.

I think @Traveler's point is that there is no one clear rubric you can use to determine why a person was called. Pick a rule and there always seems to be several exceptions to it. 

[pam]

12 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I think @Traveler's point is that there is no one clear rubric you can use to determine why a person was called. Pick a rule and there always seems to be several exceptions to it. 

You may be correct in that understanding of his post.  My point was to make sure that people understood that people are not always called because they are the most worthy or the most qualified.

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I think @Traveler's point is that there is no one clear rubric you can use to determine why a person was called. Pick a rule and there always seems to be several exceptions to it. 

There are exceptions to the rule. And while God can qualify the called, you need to use common sense. If you call a person who has no charisma, no people skills and has a lousy personality to be a ward leader it might be counter productive and actually hurt the church. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

 

I am inclined to believe that in the economy of G-d that callings are not important – at least as important as many seem to give to callings or for the reasons we think callings are important.  Can we believe that the calling of president and prophet really is no more important than a nursery worker?  I believe the problem with thinking callings are important or some more important than others is that we do not understand the economy of G-d.  G-d cares about people not callings.  It is people that are important to him.  The only reason there are callings is for people.  Yet some try to rationalize that people are for callings – and such thinking will never make sense.

When a calling opens up – we wonder who will be called to that calling.  This is because we tend to think in terms of callings and not people.  Some even try to think that callings are inspired – as though the calling has meaning.  The truth is that callings really do not matter – only people matter.  We are not given a calling for reason of a calling.  We are given a calling to serve others and when we have others and concern for them in our hearts – who is called to what or who is not called to what – does not ever matter.  All that matters is people. 

I do not believe that G-d cares about an Elder’s quorum or the Young Men, Young Women or Relief Society.  He only cares about people that we can reach and touch through such organizations.  The question is – are we willing to use G-d economy to touch others or do we think we know better?  It is hard for me to understanding why anyone would turn down an opportunity that G-d provides so we can demonstrate our love for him and others by being in his service to others through our service to him.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 9/13/2016 at 2:42 PM, TexasToast said:

First off I love and sustain my new bishop and I know that callings ultimately come from the Lord and neither him nor I but I just have a question. 

I'm the EQ Pres and recently the bishop informed me that he was going to need my Seceratary to be released for another calling. I was kinda bummed because our Secretary was really helpful to us but happily obliged. He was then called as a ward mission leader (in a BYU student ward with no non-members, which doesn't diminish the callings inportance). This has happened twice more now. I approached him last Sunday about filling my Secretary role with a EQ teacher and he tells me "Oh sorry, we're planning on calling him for something in the ward too, find someone else". 

Now I know that in the stake level, someone can be called up and the ward essentially loses them, but is that also how it works in the ward? He keeps telling us "There are so many great people! So many people need callings! Give more people callings!" but it seems like he only calls people who already have callings in the Elders Quorum. 

Is that totally normal though? Please don't get caught up in the technicalities of my question. Try and find the general meaning behind my question and, if you don't mind, do your best to respond to it. 

Thanks!

I think it works in many ways but the Lord never lets things get out of hand. I suggest you go along with the style your current leader uses and counsel with him as necessary to build unity and harmony above all else. The Lord will help you, too.

[spamlds]

If it's any consolation, every bishop hates to get that call from the Stake President telling him that he's taking one of his stalwart members to hold a stake calling!