Do you take all the Old Testament stories as literal?

[Vort]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I think that the underlying attitude here is a good one. It seems to me that some of the faith transitions that some people go through comes, in part, from those who believe they were taught that scripture must be historical documentary who, when they learn that some of scripture might be fictional or allegorical, lose all faith in the Gospel. When I entered BYU as a biology student, I went in with a very young earth creationist anti-evolution reading of scripture and the creation narrative(s). I found my faith somewhat shaken (eventually in a good way) when the instructors spent some time on some of these ideas and the debates between B H Roberts and J F Smith and so on. Part of that "faith transition" (if you want to call it that) was because no one had taught throughout seminary and BYU's religion courses that one could possibly read the creation accounts as allegorical accounts that were not attempts at science. From there, I, too, have come to realize that my belief in scripture and the Gospel is not dependent on whether or not much of scripture is historical.

In my opinion, the "allegory excuse" is used far too often in the Church. A scriptural account can be literal and non-allegorical without it being a detailed scientific explanation of how things were mechanically accomplished. I absolutely believe in Noah's flood; I think the scriptural evidence is too overwhelming to dismiss it as allegory or some such. But I do not believe it covered the whole globe. In fact, I disbelieve that the Bible teaches or even suggests any such thing. I doubt the author(s) of the Genesis account had a good understanding of the earth as a sphere. Similarly, I absolutely believe that Adam and Eve were real, literal people and the actual progenitors of our race. What the exact nature of their experience in Eden was, I don't know. The "trees" may have been real, or "allegorical", or something completely different -- such as a very, very, very old and somewhat garbled account of what happened, or perhaps something that is so far removed from our present mortal experience that talking about trees and fruit was the only way to make the story intelligible to us.

Personally, I generally prefer to impute as much literal meaning to the words as I reasonably can. I am not a scriptural literalist who insists that every word in the KJV translation of the Bible is "God-breathed", as many Christians style it. But I believe the Bible to be the very word of God to us, so I'm hesitant to "allegorize" or "spiritualize" the meaning of various scriptural passages and stories. I do not know why Christ would turn water into wine for some wedding -- the whole story doesn't make much sense to me, and I don't understand the motivations or reasoning behind it -- but my first assumption is that the fault lies in my own ignorance of how such things work and not in some flaw in the scriptural accounts.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Zarahemla said:

I will say I've read through the entire Old Testament only once because some of the stories and verses disturbed me so much to the point of a faith crisis over how horrible the scripture is and to the point that I wish the Old Testament was removed from canon or at least most of it. Just google "disturbing old testatement stories" and you'll get tons of hits that they don't talk about in sunday school class.

I love the Old Testament. I have read it two or three times, but the last time I read it (about five years ago) was my first-ever close reading. It took me about two years. The result was that I had a far deeper appreciation for the Old Testament. I am currently working my way through it again (along with the New Testament, which of course is a much easier read). I expect to gain a lot more from it this time around. I hope to finish it some time in 2018.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Vort

[Vort]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Core doctrines we must take literal. No death before the fall? Yes. Adam and Eve in a literal garden? Yes. A global flood? Yes. 

We have vastly different ideas about what constitutes "core doctrines".

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We certainly must remember that the very secular science that tells us these things are fairytails are the very same groups who say resurrection and immortality are also fairytails. 

Not really.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, Vort said:

We have vastly different ideas about what constitutes "core doctrines".

Not really.

Too many people dismiss the core doctrines. No death before the fall is one such core doctrine that is dismissed because it doesnt agree with science. But, the implication is paramount. If death was occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve then our entire doctrine of the fall is incorrect. Entire chapters in our manuals would thus be wrong. 

[zil]

8 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I didn't write the Old Testament to disturb me this much. How can you ask God about things so horrifying, seriously?

Did you think God wasn't paying attention during those years?  Do you think He hasn't seen and heard more horrifying things in more detail than you could imagine in your wildest dreams?  Did you think He can't handle your doubt, fear, frustration, anger, disappointment, arrogance, pain, or whatever else you want to throw at him?  He already knows your thoughts and feelings and fears.  He knows what you've told us.  He's willing to help you, if you go to him with real intent, willing to accept what He gives you (as opposed to being only willing to accept an answer which falls within your preconceived bounds of acceptability).

I would recommend you prayerfully consider whether to study the OT again.  If the Lord reveals that you should, then I recommend you do so prayerfully, with the Spirit (and perhaps the institute manual to help you understand some of the cultural difficulties).  If you do this, please note who is doing the horrifying things, to whom these things are done, why these things are done.  And, of course, you have to stop judging the OT people by your 2016 culture and sensibilities - they're not living now, and you weren't living then.  Your duty is not to judge their righteousness, your duty is to learn truth from the scriptures God has made available to you.

Better than noting the horrifying stuff is to search out the beauty, the mercy, the love, the generosity of God, which are everywhere in there.

[Guest]

Everything in scriptures literally happened.  The description of those histories may be told in an allegorical, poetic, or figurative way.  But they were true.  They happened.

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

I will say I've read through the entire Old Testament only once because some of the stories and verses disturbed me so much to the point of a faith crisis over how horrible the scripture is and to the point that I wish the Old Testament was removed from canon or at least most of it. Just google "disturbing old testatement stories" and you'll get tons of hits that they don't talk about in sunday school class.

What was disturbing--that God's created humans could be so horrible?  That sin could become so bad that God ordered the destruction of entire communities?  That even God's kings and prophets could express grave doubts and longings--expressing anger towards God?  To me the OT explicates the sin problem so very clearly.  It's sad, bad, and upsetting...but what aspect caused you to have a faith crisis?

[Guest MormonGator]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

In all honesty, i have to say that I just really don't think you're missing much.

He's lying. Just last week I saw him in a mosh pit. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, zil said:

And, of course, you have to stop judging the OT people by your 2016 culture and sensibilities - they're not living now, and you weren't living then. 

Slight correciton:  "stop judging the OT people by your 2016 American/western culture and sensibilities...".  First world problems, I tell ya.  Live in the Philippines a while.  Big swaths of the country are God-fearing people experiencing OT-like human crisis.

[prisonchaplain]

12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

He's lying. Just last week I saw him in a mosh pit. 

Okay...okay...I admit it.  I wanted to see what I was missing, so I went to survey the history of the last 50 years of secular music.  And, hey, I'm kind of ignorant about it, so maybe this was the mosh pit you saw me at???

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Okay...okay...I admit it.  I wanted to see what I was missing, so I went to survey the history of the last 50 years of secular music.  And, hey, I'm kind of ignorant about it, so maybe this was the mosh pit you saw me at???

 

@mirkwood is a big fan of Carole King. 

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

There are some stories that have to be true to make other scripture books true. The Tower of Babel needs to be true for the Book of Ether to work. Lot's of the Old Testament first stories including the city of Enoch are in the Pearl of Great Price. But I haven't heard a modern prophet, seer, and revelator speak on what's true and what's not or if it's all true.

 

As a student of history I recently visited the ancient ruins of the city Knossos on the island of Crete.  There, I personally saw the rather sophisticated labyrinth that according to pre-historic legend, was guarded by the half man half bull creature called the Minotaur.  The stories of human events are divided into two categories: one being historic and second being pre-historic.  The style of writing and communicating changed so abruptly with the writings of Homer that his works have become to boundaries of what we classically call historic and pre-historic.

The dates of the events covered in the Old Testament all took place during the time known as pre-historic.   The style of this era was to maintain important literature in poetic form in order to preserve important concepts.  The poetic forms utilized principles of music in that the chants contained rhythm that preserved the message in oral traditions rather than written texts.  Thus the references in pre-historic literature are symbolic to maintain the poetic format rather than what we call literal according to historical accounts. 

In our modern era many students have become so accustomed to our literal communications that ancient pre-historic poetic symbolism is misunderstood or should I say untranslatable.  Nephi talked about this problem when referencing Isaiah – indicating that without a understanding of the culture of the Jews the symbolism of Isaiah was difficult to impossible to understand – but with a symbolic understanding of Jewish culture Isaiah was simple.

I would also point to the historical works of Josephus as one that spoke of the symbolism of the pre-historic references of the Old Testament.  One of the account of Josephus deals with the ancient Biblical Tower of Babel.  Josephus wrote that there was an effort to alter the meaning of ancient symbolism and one tradition he said was being altered was the Tower of Babel.  He explicitly explained that one of the principles that was being changed was the concept that the Tower was an effort of man to reach heaven.  I specifically bring up this notion because many that maintain the Old Testament as scripture believe this false notion as a literal truth of the Bible.  Rather than tell what Josephus claimed was the actual purpose of the Tower of Babel – I will leave that as an exercise for the reader and thus avoid a trivial argument with certain religious elements.

Quoting Arthur C. Clark the British science fiction writer of 2001: A Space Odyssey.  In essence, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from the supernatural.”  I believe that we can safely assume that the technology of G-d is sufficiently advanced from ours.  However, I do personally believe in magic and that magic can be exercised through the personal development of the 3 great pillars of magic.  Which are.  1. Music   2. Mathematics  and 3. Love (pure love of Christ).

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

In my humble, non-LDS, opinion the Bible is best understood as mostly literal, mostly historical. There are a few occasions where allegory, poetry, and hyperbole are clearly employed. However, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle of biblical interpretation:  Keep It Simple Silly.  The more a teaching/understanding needs explaining the less certain it is.

The Old Testament is pre-historic not historic.  To claim otherwise is a clear violation of your KISS principle.  I also believe that any principle becomes more complicated as one become more familiar with the details of truth as defined by the principle.   Though it would seem that the principles of G-d can be understood as a child; there is a time and place to move beyond thinking as a child.

 

The Traveler

Edited December 27, 2016 by Traveler

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

If death was occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve then our entire doctrine of the fall is incorrect.

This is non sequitur.

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Too many people dismiss the core doctrines. No death before the fall is one such core doctrine that is dismissed because it doesnt agree with science. But, the implication is paramount. If death was occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve then our entire doctrine of the fall is incorrect. Entire chapters in our manuals would thus be wrong. 

I will disagree.  Satan fell and suffered death (spiritual) before Adam and Eve fell.  Also when questioned – Satan indicated that partaking of the fruit (which caused the fall - death) had taken place previously on other worlds.   I would also point out that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden they went to a place that already existed (was not created at that instance of time) called the loan and dreary world.  A world (or existence) where death was not uncommon or unusual but inevitable. 

 

The Traveler

[zil]

44 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Rather than tell what Josephus claimed was the actual purpose of the Tower of Babel – I will leave that as an exercise for the reader and thus avoid a trivial argument with certain religious elements.

At least give us a reference, because my copy of the Works of Flavius Josephus only have one entry, and it doesn't say anything significantly different about why they were building the tower.  Or are you thinking of the book of Jasher, which has interesting ideas about the tower?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I will disagree.  Satan fell and suffered death (spiritual) before Adam and Eve fell.  Also when questioned – Satan indicated that partaking of the fruit (which caused the fall - death) had taken place previously on other worlds.   I would also point out that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden they went to a place that already existed (was not created at that instance of time) called the loan and dreary world.  A world (or existence) where death was not uncommon or unusual but inevitable. 

 

The Traveler

We cant be sure of anything Satan says, he is a liar. The scriptures are clear that there was no death amongst any of the creations until after the fall. So, your argument is against scripture.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

The Old Testament is pre-historic not historic.  To claim otherwise is a clear violation of your KISS principle.  I also believe that any principle becomes more complicated as one become more familiar with the details of truth as defined by the principle.   Though it would seem that the principles of G-d can be understood as a child; there is a time and place to move beyond thinking as a child.

 

The Traveler

"Pre-historic" might be a more precise term for the first 11 chapters of Genesis, from a literary and academic perspective. However, if Moses was indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, then we could argue that God is the historian of those earliest accounts.

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

We cant be sure of anything Satan says, he is a liar. The scriptures are clear that there was no death amongst any of the creations until after the fall. So, your argument is against scripture.

Rob just for reference how old is the earth?

[askandanswer]

19 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

There's a lot of horrible stuff in the Old Testament that makes me uncomfortable and question just what the heck was being allowed by a higher power. It's the only part of canonized scripture that makes me question Jehovah.

It seems that some of your discomfort with the Old Testament is because of all of the killings and mistreatment of people recorded therein. It might be helpful to keep in mind that for almost every death recorded in the Old Testament, the person killed will, at the very least, end up in a place, the glory of which surpasses all understanding. (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding)
So in all likelihood, their death facilitated, and hastened there entry into, a far better set of circumstances than they were in when they were alive. That doesn't sound like such a bad deal. I think we mortal have a very different, limited, temporal view, of death than what God has.

[mirkwood]

Once I asked @MormonGator if he preferred Ozzy's vocals in Black Sabbath or Ronnie James Dio.  Imagine my surprise when he said he preferred Ian Gillan.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

Once I asked @MormonGator if he preferred Ozzy's vocals in Black Sabbath or Ronnie James Dio.  Imagine my surprise when he said he preferred Ian Gillan.

Imagine my surprise when my mom said she saw @mirkwood at Celine Dion concert. Scandalous! 

[mirkwood]

The other day @MormonGator changed his facebook picture to the one with him wearing his NSYNC t-shirt. 

I have no words.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

I have no words.

I had a lot of words when I saw that @mirkwood owns every Neil Diamond album ever made, but none are appropriate for this forum. 

 

[mirkwood]

Did you know that @MormonGator framed his autographed concert tourbook from the Backstreet Boys?