A letter from a lifelong Utahn that has never been Mormon

[anonymousutahatheist]

  Dear LDS folks,

 

 

I am writing to you today because I am frustrated. I am Frustrated and I don't know what to do. I have lived in Utah my whole life. I was never LDS and I often was that guy who just made stupid polygamist and “magic underwear” jokes. Completely rude and I apologize for that. I realized that I just don't understand you. I did research on your history and learning your history might have helped me to find a common bridge and I wanted to share. It begins with me ranting a little bit but I just wanted to include it so that you can hear my positions and how I feel I can find a compromise.

 

Donald Trump is more popular in this state than Barack Obama. I am just perplexed to how my fellow neighbors that I know to be sweet, gracious, generous, and respectful neighbors could possibly be more keen to Donald Trump, the most... you know what, I am so sick of trying to think of new adjectives to express how vulgar and un-dignifying Donald Trump is every time I go on this rant, but I think you get the point.

 

Donald Trump is like the 2^nd grade school kid I brought home after school because he insisted and then he stayed all evening and dropped the F bomb in front of my mom twice!

 

Ok, just one last thing to do with Donald Trump and then I'm tapping out. How can my great and gracious neighbors also support a man like Jason Chaffetz. After Donald Trump all but admitted to sexually assaulting women and talking about them like they're trash, Mr. Chaffetz said that he couldn't vote for Trump and look his daughter in the eye. Then he voted for Trump. So this man who claims that he believes families are forever, used his personal relationship with his daughter to exclaim a shunning against a man that was that was so vile, he wouldn't even vote for his own parties interest. And then he votes for him. Why? Because Hillary was that bad, he said.

 

Was Hillary that bad? Was Obama that bad? Just look at the facts with Obama. Where the country was when he took office, was much worse than when he left it. Did he do everything perfect and why did some areas get worse? Well I think that if we all looked at our personal history we'd like to change some things and improve more of the failures, even LDS history has some foibles that many of you would prefer to not focus on. And thats ok, because mistakes are what improve us as a society and a world. As long as you're learning from them. So, I would say that Obama wasn't perfect but no one could call him a failure.

 

“But Seriously,” you're thinking, “Hillary was that bad.” No, she was NOT that bad. Hillary, again, was flawed, but she was one of the most qualified humans to ever be president, and she was rejected for a human blow horn (does a subtle reference count?) that spews nothing but negativity and nonsense. A man that Mitt Romney called a “conman.”

 

A careful examination of the so called “scandals” involving the Clintons are either wacko conspiracies, like the alleged child sex ring at a DC pizza parlor that culminated into a man going into the pizza parlor where children were eating and a loaded rifle and fired 2 shots. Or they are complicated issues that don't have specific conclusions but the details are so gritty that you can't help but feel the one being “investigated” is a criminal. Mr. Chaffetz was more than happy to hold several investigations against Hillary. One of his party leaders even stated that they worked because her “poll numbers” went down. They used character assignations to gain political favor.

 

If Hillary was elected though, she had many ambitious plans.

 

-She had a childcare plan that would give maternity AND paternity leave. Not because She is against traditional family values, but because she believes that a husband should be there to bond in the early, intimate stages of life and maybe change a few diapers too!

 

 

-She had plan to make State College tuition free for millions of americans and free Community College. Do you or someone you know suffer from chronic student debt? Vote Trump who has no plan to address it and zero empathy of what it ever feels like to have money problems

 

-She had a comprehensive mental health plan. It was going to help our homeless and reduce so much pain felt by families affected by mental health issues.

 

-She had an immigration plan. Mormons are very compassionate to immigrants. Probably because of their own history of not feeling welcomed and the robust efforts to evangelize across the world. Now the GOP is in favor of extending DACA to the many undocumented workers that came here as children, but suffer the consequences. All the while, the USA is all they know. They say that the problem is that Obama acted like a dictator doing it as an executive order even though the bill for that law has been written since 2001 and was Sponsored by Sen. Orrin Hatch! The GOP just couldn't get on board, probably because they didn't want to upset the very people you heard yelling, “BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL!”

 

I could go on but I think I made the point. Hillary Clinton, just like Obama, would not be perfect but she would not be a failure. But this is why I am so frustrated, I feel hopeless in my beloved state. I want to understand LDS people better. I read up on your history and found it intriguing. I'd like to share what I found.

 

When Joseph Smith was a youth, he was clearly bright. He also had determination, probably contagious determination that anything could be done. I learned that he was sick and almost had to have his leg amputated but instead there was a novel surgery that saved his leg. No doubt his determined attitude assisted the surgery. He would forever have a limp, but that is what makes Smith so special. He didn't care whether or not he had a limp, just as long as he could keep moving forward. I'm sure that if he had it amputated he would have been hopping around.

 

He proved his charisma and faith by starting a new religion, or as some might say, carrying forward the one true religion. So it was obvious that he started a movement. This movement was a little strange to the surrounding citizens and often the LDS settlers would be persecuted, so you just moved on. You took your peaceful leave and moved forward. You didn't care about anything other than just having the freedom to practice your religion with peace. Every time you got persecuted, again, you just moved on. After Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood, your new leader, Brigham Young, carried forward the determined spirit to worship your faith openly and without persecution. So, you went west.

 

People still thought your beliefs were weird but now you were out of their hair, and you had the wisdom to not keep going too far west. Your people were going to create Zion. Sure there are some kerfuffles here and there, maybe some history that is best left unsaid, but you found your place to finally create your own little paradise.

 

Then the feds got involved. This time was different. You kept moving on, you respected your citizens and followed Jesus example, you took your leave. So now, you are willing to fight to keep your paradise. Because they were trying to take away what you have trekked through arduous conditions after peacefully moving on from your persecutors, to claim of your own in the brand new country.

 

Shrewdly, though, you realized that you could not defeat the USA but you could join it. You made some compromises but you had that determined spirit to keep moving forward, limp or no limp. You built a beautiful state. You had a rich spiritual and religious environment, but you also had an openness to ideas. At one time, Utahns weren't so staunchly aligned with one party. One party that was especially disliked in Utah, was the party that fought against you having statehood, the Republican Party. Utah was really a moderate political state with a very strong Democratic leaning.

 

So what happened? I have one theory. Utahns created a new society and it was naturally insular since they settled where no other large communities lived. After several generations, the Mormon settlers lost touch with the part of this history that is peaceful and focuses on moving forward. They lost touch with the fact that they were the abnormal infiltrators at one point.Then, when outsiders started settling in this beautiful state, we live in, the Mormons were the ones that looked at them as infiltrators.

 

Of course, they weren't going to violently persecute them like they had been. They were going to use the power of politics to keep their cultural interests protected. Like many other religious folks, social issues forced them out of the Democratic party. In Utah, a special effort was pushed to have strong feelings towards these social issues. It cemented an era of GOP domination in Utah, and many other states. Although there is a very vocal minority, the GOP will never have to worry about a serious challenge. They'll always win their races by 30 or 40 percentage points. Utahns could be overwhelmingly against a position that their Representative holds but it doesn't matter. The real race, is the Republican primary race.

 

So this is fwhy I feel hopeless. I am one of many non-Mormons living in Utah. I just want to find a bridge, because the more we stay in our respective bubbles, the larger our divide will be. I admit that I was in a bubble. There are such things as liberal elitist. I just cant help but get the feeling that mormons should be able to empathize with me more. I am different from you, I am a stranger. I don't want to hurt you or get in the way of your religious beliefs. If we have co-respect for each other, that is how we can mend this divide.

 

I can't help but feel like Mormons gave up the idea that we could have differing political views while still being united in faith? Am I wrong? Wouldn't any Mormon acknowledge that Family, Faith, and God are forever and that politics are just a temporary necessary evil? But again, Jason Chaffetz used his daughter as a fake proclamation of how opposed he is to Donald Trumps character! I don't understand how those 2 things can reconcile.

 

What seems to have happened is this, Mormons were for a long time looked at with scorn around the country. You may have heard of the clearly false rumors that mormons had tails and horns. Christians especially didn't like them. They refused to accept them, even as fellow Christians. What changed was the socially liberal revolution. Mormons proved that they could be in the Conservative Christian Club when they rejected gay rights, abortion right, and other civil rights. Now Mormons could be taken seriously as main stream. They weren't diametrically afraid of a Mormon leading their party.Even getting a high ranking Mormon leader the nomination to run fro president of a major party.

 

Now we live in this state that is in practically absolute control of one party via its religion. Our voter turnout is one of the lowest in the country. No one feels like their vote matters, either side of the aisle. I have an ambitious idea, lets go back to when we were an open society that could live by faith but vote their conscience?

 

I have some proposals that I am making

 

1. I want to quit criticizing mormons for “running the State” and “taking all our money.” It would be ridiculous to not accept that a state with a wide majority of one religion would have no affect on the way it is legislated

2. I want to never again say nasty vulgar insults about mormons, whether it be to their face or nameless on the internet and condemn those that do.

3. I will not judge you for your “strange” religious practices if you refuse to judge anyone because of their “strange” lifestyle choices. As long you're in no danger and you can carry on your lifestyle, who cares? That is living in a free society

4. Stop with the stupid liquor laws. Surely you cant say you're not trying to impose your religious beliefs on us drinkers? I understand that you don't want drinking to be normalized in your world and you're probably mostly worried about your kids. Maybe for a change though, this kind of education could be more focused in classroom and moral issues could be stressed more in the home

5. Stop with the stupid sex-ed. Abstinence only education doesn't work. Key word is education. Of course abstinence is the only sure fire way to keep from getting pregnant, but that form of sex-ed only leaves teens more confused. They still have natural desires, but no idea of how their bodies even work. So sex-ed could be more robust, ensuring that kids know whats going on and how to protect themselves. If they need to avoid sex because of spiritual protection, then that should be focussed on at Church and in the Home, isn't that a fair compromise? One great benefit is that it will lower teenage pregnancies and abortions. No doubt both of those would reduce needs for avoidable abortions, and reduce a strain on welfare benefits.

6. Lets lead the nation on working to make voting easier. This should be common sense and bi-partisan but it is another victim of the Obama Hate years. Everyone that can, should vote. Lets set the standard in our state that we truly believe all Utahns should take party in their patriotic duty.

7. Lets lead the nation in a green energy party. We feel the disgusting side affects from pollution. We could lead the nation in promoting green energy. Our state is beautiful and that alone should be the driving factor behind protecting its health.

8. The Utah VS BYU rivalry will no longer be Mormon VS Non-Mormon. Utah was founded by Brigham Young and most of the students and fans are Mormon. Stop making it a religious battle. HeeHee, had to throw that one in there

 

 

In closing, I want to share that I am writing this as an atheist. I share this with the confidence that after considering what Mormons have gone through because of their religious beliefs, they'll understand, that, they don't have to understand the lack of mine. They can have the peace and security to know that our differences in religion don't have to affect our interest in the common good for our state and our fellow Utahns.

 

I want to run for office one day, I want to become an advocate for causes I believe in, and I want to do it openly about who I am. I may be an atheist, but I don't want to leave my beloved state. It is my paradise and I want to fight to protect it. So please, work with me so that I can sign this with my name instead of, simply, “anonymous.” If I came out as atheist then I would never be welcomed to have a strong place in my paradise. I am forced to either stay in the closet as it were, and never be able to have the ability to be open about my lack of religious beliefs, or I can come out but face possible exile. I just love my state to be forced to move on, limping on one leg.

 

     Anonymous atheist in Utah

[Guest]

 Liberal use of the word "stupid" might not be the best way to initiate peaceful and respectful conversation. At any rate...

 

Most of us aren't in Utah, but I'm interested to hear from those who are. (My bishop, who is a native Utahn, is a very enthusiastic Utes fan, FTR.)

Edited January 19, 2017 by Eowyn

[Jane_Doe]

Couple of disjointed thoughts here---

When trying to build a bridge, it helps to see people as individuals and not try to lump them into a uniform type person.

Majority of people on this forum are not from UT (only about 15% LDS folk live in UT). 

It is also noteworthy that this site has some pretty strict rules about political discussions, you might want to familiarize yourself with.

 

But anyways, welcome to the forum!

Edited January 20, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Guest MormonGator]

Judging from your post, I'm sure you are a very smart person.

Do you really think posting this will change anything? 99% of Utahans won't see it.  I think you did it to vent. 

[Guest Godless]

3 hours ago, anonymousutahatheist said:

Stop with the stupid liquor laws. Surely you cant say you're not trying to impose your religious beliefs on us drinkers? I understand that you don't want drinking to be normalized in your world and you're probably mostly worried about your kids. Maybe for a change though, this kind of education could be more focused in classroom and moral issues could be stressed more in the home

I'll be making a trip up to Utah in March and have begun some market research in case there's an opportunity for my wife and I to have a date night in SLC while we're there. Which is to say that I want to visit one or two of your breweries, essentially. You actually have a few very good ones.

Fun fact: If I understand Utah laws correctly, high abv beers (defined as higher than ~3% abv in Utah) are okay to be sold in bottles at a bar/taproom, but not on draft. All draft beer has to be in that ultra-low abv range. One of my favorite Utah beers ranges in the 12-13% abv range (it varies by batch). It is only sold in kegs and 22oz bottles. According to this law (again, if I'm understanding it correctly), I can't go to the brewery and have an 8oz or 10oz draft pour of this beer, but I can open and consume a 22oz bottle of it. Because that makes sense.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Godless

[mordorbund]

If you're curious about the history of Mormons and the political parties, you can start with this: Mormons and American Politics.

If you want to know why many Mormons voted against Hillary, you could try asking and then restating their position to ensure you understand.

[unixknight]

One thing I've noticed in comments like those in the OP, as well as statements by my liberal friends, is that their bewilderment sounds universal.  "How can good people vote for Trump?!?!?!?"  A close friend of mine took it a step further, accusing all Trump voters of being comfortable with sexual assault.  That accusation nearly ended our friendship, because that was essentially a direct character assassination of many people who are VERY close to me. 

What folks like him and the OP don't seem to realize is that we simply do not see these public figures in the same light. 

@anonymousutahatheist: To resolve this conflict you're feeling you have got to step out of your comfort zone and try to see these people the way your Conservative friends and associates see them, and stop expecting these conservatives to judge according to your own set of criteria.  Here's what I mean.

Conservatives, generally speaking, do not see Barack Obama as being a good President, not at all.  In fact, we're bewildered that anybody does.  The only "accomplishment" of his term was Obamacare, which is incredibly unpopular with Americans.  Contrary to what the news media feverishly claim, there have been several scandals involving the White House over the last 8 years and it's a source of incredible frustration to many Americans that these things haven't been pursued.

We also do not, generally speaking, see Clinton as being the most qualified person for the Presidency.  Her very questionable ethics and personal history give us pause, and her constant lies and scandals, also unreported by the media, make us very reluctant to offer her ANY political power whatsoever. 

And as for Trump, well we simply don't see him as being the evil you do.  The media went into full overdrive to portray him as being representative of every single social evil there is in today's world, and we simply don't buy it.  Not too many Conservatives are saying Trump is super duper awesome, or even that good, but here's the thing:  For the last 8 years Democrats have been doing all they can to marginalize and silence Republicans.  Does the phrase "they can ride in the back" ring a bell?  That's what Obama said of Congressional Republicans back in 2010.  Between that and comments like "they cling to their guns and Bibles" sent a very clear message:  There's no room in Obama's policies for the likes of us.  Conservatives were to be shut down and pushed aside.  We had to put up with that garbage for eight. years.

So when Trump comes along, and he speaks directly to us and favorably about us, and the alternative is a candidate who referred to Trump supporters as "deplorables" then it should be pretty simple and obvious why your Conservative friends and neighbors elected him.

Personally, I voted McMullin... but then he sold out to CNN right after the election and I regret my decision.

[Sunday21]

Hi there!  Welcome! 

HIlary and Trump. I agree.

Never been to Utah.

Hope you stick around!

 

[estradling75]

I did not vote for Trump because I did not think he was someone I wanted as president (as you so clearly describe)

I did not vote for Hilary because I did not think she was someone I wanted as president (as you glossed over)

Most people tend to exaggerate the flaws of those they don't like and minimize the flaws of those that they do... And consider themselves fair.

I know I do... but since I didn't vote for/like either of them... I think I can be fair between the two.

I want the government to shrink, because all government laws/powers are backed up with the threat of violence.  Therefore I want that to be very narrow in scope.

All the democrats who are quaking at the thought of what Trump can do... Seem totally ok with giving that power to Obama/Hilary.  That is hypocrisy.  A Moral/Principled stance is not it is Good if we do it to You, but Bad if you do it to Us.

But then I do not for see the republicans making any attempt to shrink the government now that they have control...  So round and round we go.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by estradling75

[Backroads]

I'm not in disagreement with a lot of your points and thoughts.

I appreciate your goal to stop the Mormon-bashing. I know among some atheist circles it's hip to bash theists, so yeah, thanks.

[anatess2]

I am a Filipino citizen currently living in Florida, card-carrying Mormon and a big Trump fan.

If you want to know why, ask me a question and I'll give you an honest answer.  I tend to get long-winded...

[Blackmarch]

6 hours ago, anonymousutahatheist said:

 

Dear LDS folks,

 

 

I am writing to you today because I am frustrated. I am Frustrated and I don't know what to do. I have lived in Utah my whole life. I was never LDS and I often was that guy who just made stupid polygamist and “magic underwear” jokes. Completely rude and I apologize for that. I realized that I just don't understand you. I did research on your history and learning your history might have helped me to find a common bridge and I wanted to share. It begins with me ranting a little bit but I just wanted to include it so that you can hear my positions and how I feel I can find a compromise.

 

Donald Trump is more popular in this state than Barack Obama. I am just perplexed to how my fellow neighbors that I know to be sweet, gracious, generous, and respectful neighbors could possibly be more keen to Donald Trump, the most... you know what, I am so sick of trying to think of new adjectives to express how vulgar and un-dignifying Donald Trump is every time I go on this rant, but I think you get the point.

we've had to deal with obama for 8 years- that makes for a pretty low bar for expectations.
my take away from this election is that the lds population is not as influential in this state as it would appear (there were more legislative items with moral issues that the church was against that got voted in than out)

 

Donald Trump is like the 2

^nd grade school kid I brought home after school because he insisted and then he stayed all evening and dropped the F bomb in front of my mom twice!

yes he was the schoolyard bully (at least verbiosely) however clinton was more like the mafia. between the two i'd much rather have to suffer under trump than suffer under hillary.

 

Ok, just one last thing to do with Donald Trump and then I'm tapping out. How can my great and gracious neighbors also support a man like Jason Chaffetz. After Donald Trump all but admitted to sexually assaulting women and talking about them like they're trash, Mr. Chaffetz said that he couldn't vote for Trump and look his daughter in the eye. Then he voted for Trump. So this man who claims that he believes families are forever, used his personal relationship with his daughter to exclaim a shunning against a man that was that was so vile, he wouldn't even vote for his own parties interest. And then he votes for him. Why? Because Hillary was that bad, he said.

I htink you answered yourself here. If all your options are crappy, then you will have a crappy result.

 

Was Hillary that bad? Was Obama that bad? Just look at the facts with Obama. Where the country was when he took office, was much worse than when he left it. Did he do everything perfect and why did some areas get worse? Well I think that if we all looked at our personal history we'd like to change some things and improve more of the failures, even LDS history has some foibles that many of you would prefer to not focus on. And thats ok, because mistakes are what improve us as a society and a world. As long as you're learning from them. So, I would say that Obama wasn't perfect but no one could call him a failure.

it's worse. It's not jsut the individuals but the whole party that comes with them... the republicans are terrible and the democrats are worse and it's almost nigh impossible to get a 3rd option.

 

“But Seriously,” you're thinking, “Hillary was that bad.” No, she was NOT that bad. Hillary, again, was flawed, but she was one of the most qualified humans to ever be president, and she was rejected for a human blow horn (does a subtle reference count?) that spews nothing but negativity and nonsense. A man that Mitt Romney called a “conman.”

there's a difference between a qualified leader and a good leader. Hitler was a qualified leader.

 

A careful examination of the so called “scandals” involving the Clintons are either wacko conspiracies, like the alleged child sex ring at a DC pizza parlor that culminated into a man going into the pizza parlor where children were eating and a loaded rifle and fired 2 shots. Or they are complicated issues that don't have specific conclusions but the details are so gritty that you can't help but feel the one being “investigated” is a criminal. Mr. Chaffetz was more than happy to hold several investigations against Hillary. One of his party leaders even stated that they worked because her “poll numbers” went down. They used character assignations to gain political favor.

everything in the media is fluff. if you ever get to watch a lot of actual congress actions and congress time (not the news face time) you'll be willing to lynch about everyone on both sides.

 

If Hillary was elected though, she had many ambitious plans.

exactly. she promised to wipe iran off the map (2015 in a dartmouth college). trump hasn't made any promises to go to war with any specific nation.

 

-She had a childcare plan that would give maternity AND paternity leave. Not because She is against traditional family values, but because she believes that a husband should be there to bond in the early, intimate stages of life and maybe change a few diapers too!

lds view lives of innocent children very strongly if you take a group of 1000 kids and killed three of them to infinitely improve the lives of the remaining 997 kids the LDS would still vote against it.

 

 

-She had plan to make State College tuition free for millions of americans and free Community College. Do you or someone you know suffer from chronic student debt? Vote Trump who has no plan to address it and zero empathy of what it ever feels like to have money problems

there is no such thing as free money (at least not without inflation increases to go with it). free money should be raising red flags up and down the isle.

 

-She had a comprehensive mental health plan. It was going to help our homeless and reduce so much pain felt by families affected by mental health issues.

unfortunately said health plan included a few elements that trumped the rest of it (ie stance on abortion).

 

-She had an immigration plan. Mormons are very compassionate to immigrants. Probably because of their own history of not feeling welcomed and the robust efforts to evangelize across the world. Now the GOP is in favor of extending DACA to the many undocumented workers that came here as children, but suffer the consequences. All the while, the USA is all they know. They say that the problem is that Obama acted like a dictator doing it as an executive order even though the bill for that law has been written since 2001 and was Sponsored by Sen. Orrin Hatch! The GOP just couldn't get on board, probably because they didn't want to upset the very people you heard yelling, “BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL!”

probably. however you will find that most (correction almost all laws) laws come with a load of crap with them no matter how altruistic the intent is.

 

I could go on but I think I made the point. Hillary Clinton, just like Obama, would not be perfect but she would not be a failure. But this is why I am so frustrated, I feel hopeless in my beloved state. I want to understand LDS people better. I read up on your history and found it intriguing. I'd like to share what I found.

i would highly recommend doing a deep and comprehensive study of the US gov especially from 1900-1970s (but mid 1800s have some shining gems too). Hillary's baggage is much closer to elements that are very scary. where as having someone who is ineffectual and won't get much done beyond using foul verbiage is actually a rather blessed relief.

 

When Joseph Smith was a youth, he was clearly bright. He also had determination, probably contagious determination that anything could be done. I learned that he was sick and almost had to have his leg amputated but instead there was a novel surgery that saved his leg. No doubt his determined attitude assisted the surgery. He would forever have a limp, but that is what makes Smith so special. He didn't care whether or not he had a limp, just as long as he could keep moving forward. I'm sure that if he had it amputated he would have been hopping around.

as it was he did have to limp the rest of his life.

 

He proved his charisma and faith by starting a new religion, or as some might say, carrying forward the one true religion. So it was obvious that he started a movement. This movement was a little strange to the surrounding citizens and often the LDS settlers would be persecuted, so you just moved on. You took your peaceful leave and moved forward. You didn't care about anything other than just having the freedom to practice your religion with peace. Every time you got persecuted, again, you just moved on. After Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood, your new leader, Brigham Young, carried forward the determined spirit to worship your faith openly and without persecution. So, you went west.

however now there is nowhere else to move on to. in trump we see an infinitismal small chance to pause or possibly reverse the trend of religious ousting that is occuring (mostly getting the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction at least a bit hopefully). Clinton offers no such hope.

 

People still thought your beliefs were weird but now you were out of their hair, and you had the wisdom to not keep going too far west. Your people were going to create Zion. Sure there are some kerfuffles here and there, maybe some history that is best left unsaid, but you found your place to finally create your own little paradise.

we settled a place that the local survival experts said we were straight up certified stupid to try to settle (mostly mountain men but also a couple natives). we are still weird.

 

Then the feds got involved. This time was different. You kept moving on, you respected your citizens and followed Jesus example, you took your leave. So now, you are willing to fight to keep your paradise. Because they were trying to take away what you have trekked through arduous conditions after peacefully moving on from your persecutors, to claim of your own in the brand new country.

 

Shrewdly, though, you realized that you could not defeat the USA but you could join it. You made some compromises but you had that determined spirit to keep moving forward, limp or no limp. You built a beautiful state. You had a rich spiritual and religious environment, but you also had an openness to ideas. At one time, Utahns weren't so staunchly aligned with one party. One party that was especially disliked in Utah, was the party that fought against you having statehood, the Republican Party. Utah was really a moderate political state with a very strong Democratic leaning.

 

So what happened?

parties change over time, and if you want to make things better for your situation you have to fight for it- in the US that means picking a side and working it for everything it has, plus lots of other people saw that utah had good land, and utah was straightly inbetween california and the rest of the US.

I have one theory. Utahns created a new society and it was naturally insular since they settled where no other large communities lived. After several generations, the Mormon settlers lost touch with the part of this history that is peaceful and focuses on moving forward. They lost touch with the fact that they were the abnormal infiltrators at one point.Then, when outsiders started settling in this beautiful state, we live in, the Mormons were the ones that looked at them as infiltrators.

pretty sure that has happened to some extent. Humans always develop an us vs them mentality.

 

Of course, they weren't going to violently persecute them like they had been. They were going to use the power of politics to keep their cultural interests protected. Like many other religious folks, social issues forced them out of the Democratic party. In Utah, a special effort was pushed to have strong feelings towards these social issues. It cemented an era of GOP domination in Utah, and many other states. Although there is a very vocal minority, the GOP will never have to worry about a serious challenge. They'll always win their races by 30 or 40 percentage points. Utahns could be overwhelmingly against a position that their Representative holds but it doesn't matter. The real race, is the Republican primary race.

actually we gave the GOP a good scare shortly before the 2016 november election. I just wish we as a state could have had it realised on the day when it would have really counted. We still do move forward a lot.... however as stated before there are no other places we can physically go to. and we still get blamed for tons of crap.
if i recall right i believe we are the only state that's been able to forge an equality law that gave protections to both LGBTQ and religious sides (both complain that it doesn't do enough for their side XD)
the persecution still exists it's just changed format.

 

So this is fwhy I feel hopeless. I am one of many non-Mormons living in Utah. I just want to find a bridge, because the more we stay in our respective bubbles, the larger our divide will be. I admit that I was in a bubble. There are such things as liberal elitist. I just cant help but get the feeling that mormons should be able to empathize with me more. I am different from you, I am a stranger. I don't want to hurt you or get in the way of your religious beliefs. If we have co-respect for each other, that is how we can mend this divide.

I know how you feel. for the past decade or so i've been watching animal farm play out in politics all the while feeling like the title of the book "I have no mouth and I must scream".... altho watching the hillary campaign page on FB in november was really scary.
let me thank you very much from the bottom of my heart.. especially for not ranting how stupid we are, or how we should be exterminated for supporting trump, or being right wing terrorists.

my advice, first take a lot of deep breaths. second realise that no matter what FB says we've had worse presidents than the last 4(including our most recent one) at worse times in history. 3 realise that people will be truly sick and tired of him and republicans at the end of 4 years, and if not then for sure after 8... and the pendulum will start to swing the other way again.

 

I can't help but feel like Mormons gave up the idea that we could have differing political views while still being united in faith? Am I wrong? Wouldn't any Mormon acknowledge that Family, Faith, and God are forever and that politics are just a temporary necessary evil? But again, Jason Chaffetz used his daughter as a fake proclamation of how opposed he is to Donald Trumps character! I don't understand how those 2 things can reconcile.

we do recognize that family faith and god are forever, and that politics are a necesary evil (thats why we get involved every once in a while)... however we've been watching over the past 20 years as bringing faith family and god outside of a church is getting penalized harsher and harsher every year. I don't know why that guy was so afraid that he had to use his daughter as an excuse ( i wouldn't). I'll tell you a secret about mormondom- the family is the force/concept/spirit behind everything mormon. (and why the church is strongly against the LGBTQ thing)

 

What seems to have happened is this, Mormons were for a long time looked at with scorn around the country. You may have heard of the clearly false rumors that mormons had tails and horns. Christians especially didn't like them. They refused to accept them, even as fellow Christians. What changed was the socially liberal revolution. Mormons proved that they could be in the Conservative Christian Club when they rejected gay rights, abortion right, and other civil rights. Now Mormons could be taken seriously as main stream. They weren't diametrically afraid of a Mormon leading their party.Even getting a high ranking Mormon leader the nomination to run fro president of a major party.

that change is happening more so out of expediency than anything else.... ironically a lot of that expediency is generated from fallout from what christian societies in the US put into law in previous generations. we're still bogeymen to a lot of people.

 

Now we live in this state that is in practically absolute control of one party via its religion. Our voter turnout is one of the lowest in the country. No one feels like their vote matters, either side of the aisle. I have an ambitious idea, lets go back to when we were an open society that could live by faith but vote their conscience?

as of a year ago i would have said the church has tons of influence upon the politics in utah... however after this last election i'm having another look at that. I would also like to go back to that open society idea.... however what's happening in the work, education, and government landscapes is that if religion gets brought in at all you are lucky if you just get roasted and skewered socially (rather than losing your job either by being fired or by being sued out of house and home).
I also wish that more people would vote as well... but one must always be open to the chance that they might be in the minority in regards to the vote.

 

I have some proposals that I am making

 

1. I want to quit criticizing mormons for “running the State” and “taking all our money.” It would be ridiculous to not accept that a state with a wide majority of one religion would have no affect on the way it is legislated

2. I want to never again say nasty vulgar insults about mormons, whether it be to their face or nameless on the internet and condemn those that do.

3. I will not judge you for your “strange” religious practices if you refuse to judge anyone because of their “strange” lifestyle choices. As long you're in no danger and you can carry on your lifestyle, who cares? That is living in a free society

4. Stop with the stupid liquor laws. Surely you cant say you're not trying to impose your religious beliefs on us drinkers? I understand that you don't want drinking to be normalized in your world and you're probably mostly worried about your kids. Maybe for a change though, this kind of education could be more focused in classroom and moral issues could be stressed more in the home

5. Stop with the stupid sex-ed. Abstinence only education doesn't work. Key word is education. Of course abstinence is the only sure fire way to keep from getting pregnant, but that form of sex-ed only leaves teens more confused. They still have natural desires, but no idea of how their bodies even work. So sex-ed could be more robust, ensuring that kids know whats going on and how to protect themselves. If they need to avoid sex because of spiritual protection, then that should be focussed on at Church and in the Home, isn't that a fair compromise? One great benefit is that it will lower teenage pregnancies and abortions. No doubt both of those would reduce needs for avoidable abortions, and reduce a strain on welfare benefits.

6. Lets lead the nation on working to make voting easier. This should be common sense and bi-partisan but it is another victim of the Obama Hate years. Everyone that can, should vote. Lets set the standard in our state that we truly believe all Utahns should take party in their patriotic duty.

7. Lets lead the nation in a green energy party. We feel the disgusting side affects from pollution. We could lead the nation in promoting green energy. Our state is beautiful and that alone should be the driving factor behind protecting its health.

8. The Utah VS BYU rivalry will no longer be Mormon VS Non-Mormon. Utah was founded by Brigham Young and most of the students and fans are Mormon. Stop making it a religious battle. HeeHee, had to throw that one in there

 

 

In closing, I want to share that I am writing this as an atheist. I share this with the confidence that after considering what Mormons have gone through because of their religious beliefs, they'll understand, that, they don't have to understand the lack of mine. They can have the peace and security to know that our differences in religion don't have to affect our interest in the common good for our state and our fellow Utahns.

 

I want to run for office one day, I want to become an advocate for causes I believe in, and I want to do it openly about who I am. I may be an atheist, but I don't want to leave my beloved state. It is my paradise and I want to fight to protect it. So please, work with me so that I can sign this with my name instead of, simply, “anonymous.” If I came out as atheist then I would never be welcomed to have a strong place in my paradise. I am forced to either stay in the closet as it were, and never be able to have the ability to be open about my lack of religious beliefs, or I can come out but face possible exile. I just love my state to be forced to move on, limping on one leg.

 

     Anonymous atheist in Utah

thank you for sharing! it has been an interesting read! i'm out of time to go through your proposal so i hope to get to it in the next day or two

thank you, you have no idea how comforting that is. I earnestly hope this is the case. i will try responding the best i can to this as i do live in utah.

[Blackmarch]

nuts i missed a couple of tags >.<

[Blueskye2]

6 hours ago, Godless said:

I'll be making a trip up to Utah in March and have begun some market research in case there's an opportunity for my wife and I to have a date night in SLC while we're there. Which is to say that I want to visit one or two of your breweries, essentially. You actually have a few very good ones.

Fun fact: If I understand Utah laws correctly, high abv beers (defined as higher than ~3% abv in Utah) are okay to be sold in bottles at a bar/taproom, but not on draft. All draft beer has to be in that ultra-low abv range. One of my favorite Utah beers ranges in the 12-13% abv range (it varies by batch). It is only sold in kegs and 22oz bottles. According to this law (again, if I'm understanding it correctly), I can't go to the brewery and have an 8oz or 10oz draft pour of this beer, but I can open and consume a 22oz bottle of it. Because that makes sense.

Visit The West Side Tavern and Cold Beer Store -Utah Brewers Cooperative. Because the beer is sold where it's brewed they fall under the same laws as wineries, that is, you can get "heavy beers" to go. They also have a bar with all of their beers on tap, with a view out to the bottling line. They sell Wasatch and Squatters brews.  Locals pick up growlers (64 oz) to go.

The "Cold Beer Store" is in reference to Utah State liquor stores, the only other place to by higher abv beers, to go. And the state never refrigerate the beers. Ever.  Who knows why. Us locals don't try to understand Utah liquor laws because they are not rational and randomly change to ever further irrationality every time the Utah State legislature convenes. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Blueskye2]

9 hours ago, anonymousutahatheist said:

  Dear LDS folks,

 

 

I am writing to you today because I am frustrated. I am Frustrated and I don't know what to do. I have lived in Utah my whole life. I was never LDS and I often was that guy who just made stupid polygamist and “magic underwear” jokes. Completely rude and I apologize for that. I realized that I just don't understand you. I did research on your history and learning your history might have helped me to find a common bridge and I wanted to share. It begins with me ranting a little bit but I just wanted to include it so that you can hear my positions and how I feel I can find a compromise.

 

Donald Trump is more popular in this state than Barack Obama. I am just perplexed to how my fellow neighbors that I know to be sweet, gracious, generous, and respectful neighbors could possibly be more keen to Donald Trump, the most... you know what, I am so sick of trying to think of new adjectives to express how vulgar and un-dignifying Donald Trump is every time I go on this rant, but I think you get the point.

 

Donald Trump is like the 2^nd grade school kid I brought home after school because he insisted and then he stayed all evening and dropped the F bomb in front of my mom twice!

 

Ok, just one last thing to do with Donald Trump and then I'm tapping out. How can my great and gracious neighbors also support a man like Jason Chaffetz. After Donald Trump all but admitted to sexually assaulting women and talking about them like they're trash, Mr. Chaffetz said that he couldn't vote for Trump and look his daughter in the eye. Then he voted for Trump. So this man who claims that he believes families are forever, used his personal relationship with his daughter to exclaim a shunning against a man that was that was so vile, he wouldn't even vote for his own parties interest. And then he votes for him. Why? Because Hillary was that bad, he said.

 

Was Hillary that bad? Was Obama that bad? Just look at the facts with Obama. Where the country was when he took office, was much worse than when he left it. Did he do everything perfect and why did some areas get worse? Well I think that if we all looked at our personal history we'd like to change some things and improve more of the failures, even LDS history has some foibles that many of you would prefer to not focus on. And thats ok, because mistakes are what improve us as a society and a world. As long as you're learning from them. So, I would say that Obama wasn't perfect but no one could call him a failure.

 

“But Seriously,” you're thinking, “Hillary was that bad.” No, she was NOT that bad. Hillary, again, was flawed, but she was one of the most qualified humans to ever be president, and she was rejected for a human blow horn (does a subtle reference count?) that spews nothing but negativity and nonsense. A man that Mitt Romney called a “conman.”

 

A careful examination of the so called “scandals” involving the Clintons are either wacko conspiracies, like the alleged child sex ring at a DC pizza parlor that culminated into a man going into the pizza parlor where children were eating and a loaded rifle and fired 2 shots. Or they are complicated issues that don't have specific conclusions but the details are so gritty that you can't help but feel the one being “investigated” is a criminal. Mr. Chaffetz was more than happy to hold several investigations against Hillary. One of his party leaders even stated that they worked because her “poll numbers” went down. They used character assignations to gain political favor.

 

If Hillary was elected though, she had many ambitious plans.

 

-She had a childcare plan that would give maternity AND paternity leave. Not because She is against traditional family values, but because she believes that a husband should be there to bond in the early, intimate stages of life and maybe change a few diapers too!

 

 

-She had plan to make State College tuition free for millions of americans and free Community College. Do you or someone you know suffer from chronic student debt? Vote Trump who has no plan to address it and zero empathy of what it ever feels like to have money problems

 

-She had a comprehensive mental health plan. It was going to help our homeless and reduce so much pain felt by families affected by mental health issues.

 

-She had an immigration plan. Mormons are very compassionate to immigrants. Probably because of their own history of not feeling welcomed and the robust efforts to evangelize across the world. Now the GOP is in favor of extending DACA to the many undocumented workers that came here as children, but suffer the consequences. All the while, the USA is all they know. They say that the problem is that Obama acted like a dictator doing it as an executive order even though the bill for that law has been written since 2001 and was Sponsored by Sen. Orrin Hatch! The GOP just couldn't get on board, probably because they didn't want to upset the very people you heard yelling, “BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL!”

 

I could go on but I think I made the point. Hillary Clinton, just like Obama, would not be perfect but she would not be a failure. But this is why I am so frustrated, I feel hopeless in my beloved state. I want to understand LDS people better. I read up on your history and found it intriguing. I'd like to share what I found.

 

When Joseph Smith was a youth, he was clearly bright. He also had determination, probably contagious determination that anything could be done. I learned that he was sick and almost had to have his leg amputated but instead there was a novel surgery that saved his leg. No doubt his determined attitude assisted the surgery. He would forever have a limp, but that is what makes Smith so special. He didn't care whether or not he had a limp, just as long as he could keep moving forward. I'm sure that if he had it amputated he would have been hopping around.

 

He proved his charisma and faith by starting a new religion, or as some might say, carrying forward the one true religion. So it was obvious that he started a movement. This movement was a little strange to the surrounding citizens and often the LDS settlers would be persecuted, so you just moved on. You took your peaceful leave and moved forward. You didn't care about anything other than just having the freedom to practice your religion with peace. Every time you got persecuted, again, you just moved on. After Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood, your new leader, Brigham Young, carried forward the determined spirit to worship your faith openly and without persecution. So, you went west.

 

People still thought your beliefs were weird but now you were out of their hair, and you had the wisdom to not keep going too far west. Your people were going to create Zion. Sure there are some kerfuffles here and there, maybe some history that is best left unsaid, but you found your place to finally create your own little paradise.

 

Then the feds got involved. This time was different. You kept moving on, you respected your citizens and followed Jesus example, you took your leave. So now, you are willing to fight to keep your paradise. Because they were trying to take away what you have trekked through arduous conditions after peacefully moving on from your persecutors, to claim of your own in the brand new country.

 

Shrewdly, though, you realized that you could not defeat the USA but you could join it. You made some compromises but you had that determined spirit to keep moving forward, limp or no limp. You built a beautiful state. You had a rich spiritual and religious environment, but you also had an openness to ideas. At one time, Utahns weren't so staunchly aligned with one party. One party that was especially disliked in Utah, was the party that fought against you having statehood, the Republican Party. Utah was really a moderate political state with a very strong Democratic leaning.

 

So what happened? I have one theory. Utahns created a new society and it was naturally insular since they settled where no other large communities lived. After several generations, the Mormon settlers lost touch with the part of this history that is peaceful and focuses on moving forward. They lost touch with the fact that they were the abnormal infiltrators at one point.Then, when outsiders started settling in this beautiful state, we live in, the Mormons were the ones that looked at them as infiltrators.

 

Of course, they weren't going to violently persecute them like they had been. They were going to use the power of politics to keep their cultural interests protected. Like many other religious folks, social issues forced them out of the Democratic party. In Utah, a special effort was pushed to have strong feelings towards these social issues. It cemented an era of GOP domination in Utah, and many other states. Although there is a very vocal minority, the GOP will never have to worry about a serious challenge. They'll always win their races by 30 or 40 percentage points. Utahns could be overwhelmingly against a position that their Representative holds but it doesn't matter. The real race, is the Republican primary race.

 

So this is fwhy I feel hopeless. I am one of many non-Mormons living in Utah. I just want to find a bridge, because the more we stay in our respective bubbles, the larger our divide will be. I admit that I was in a bubble. There are such things as liberal elitist. I just cant help but get the feeling that mormons should be able to empathize with me more. I am different from you, I am a stranger. I don't want to hurt you or get in the way of your religious beliefs. If we have co-respect for each other, that is how we can mend this divide.

 

I can't help but feel like Mormons gave up the idea that we could have differing political views while still being united in faith? Am I wrong? Wouldn't any Mormon acknowledge that Family, Faith, and God are forever and that politics are just a temporary necessary evil? But again, Jason Chaffetz used his daughter as a fake proclamation of how opposed he is to Donald Trumps character! I don't understand how those 2 things can reconcile.

 

What seems to have happened is this, Mormons were for a long time looked at with scorn around the country. You may have heard of the clearly false rumors that mormons had tails and horns. Christians especially didn't like them. They refused to accept them, even as fellow Christians. What changed was the socially liberal revolution. Mormons proved that they could be in the Conservative Christian Club when they rejected gay rights, abortion right, and other civil rights. Now Mormons could be taken seriously as main stream. They weren't diametrically afraid of a Mormon leading their party.Even getting a high ranking Mormon leader the nomination to run fro president of a major party.

 

Now we live in this state that is in practically absolute control of one party via its religion. Our voter turnout is one of the lowest in the country. No one feels like their vote matters, either side of the aisle. I have an ambitious idea, lets go back to when we were an open society that could live by faith but vote their conscience?

 

I have some proposals that I am making

 

1. I want to quit criticizing mormons for “running the State” and “taking all our money.” It would be ridiculous to not accept that a state with a wide majority of one religion would have no affect on the way it is legislated

2. I want to never again say nasty vulgar insults about mormons, whether it be to their face or nameless on the internet and condemn those that do.

3. I will not judge you for your “strange” religious practices if you refuse to judge anyone because of their “strange” lifestyle choices. As long you're in no danger and you can carry on your lifestyle, who cares? That is living in a free society

4. Stop with the stupid liquor laws. Surely you cant say you're not trying to impose your religious beliefs on us drinkers? I understand that you don't want drinking to be normalized in your world and you're probably mostly worried about your kids. Maybe for a change though, this kind of education could be more focused in classroom and moral issues could be stressed more in the home

5. Stop with the stupid sex-ed. Abstinence only education doesn't work. Key word is education. Of course abstinence is the only sure fire way to keep from getting pregnant, but that form of sex-ed only leaves teens more confused. They still have natural desires, but no idea of how their bodies even work. So sex-ed could be more robust, ensuring that kids know whats going on and how to protect themselves. If they need to avoid sex because of spiritual protection, then that should be focussed on at Church and in the Home, isn't that a fair compromise? One great benefit is that it will lower teenage pregnancies and abortions. No doubt both of those would reduce needs for avoidable abortions, and reduce a strain on welfare benefits.

6. Lets lead the nation on working to make voting easier. This should be common sense and bi-partisan but it is another victim of the Obama Hate years. Everyone that can, should vote. Lets set the standard in our state that we truly believe all Utahns should take party in their patriotic duty.

7. Lets lead the nation in a green energy party. We feel the disgusting side affects from pollution. We could lead the nation in promoting green energy. Our state is beautiful and that alone should be the driving factor behind protecting its health.

8. The Utah VS BYU rivalry will no longer be Mormon VS Non-Mormon. Utah was founded by Brigham Young and most of the students and fans are Mormon. Stop making it a religious battle. HeeHee, had to throw that one in there

 

 

In closing, I want to share that I am writing this as an atheist. I share this with the confidence that after considering what Mormons have gone through because of their religious beliefs, they'll understand, that, they don't have to understand the lack of mine. They can have the peace and security to know that our differences in religion don't have to affect our interest in the common good for our state and our fellow Utahns.

 

I want to run for office one day, I want to become an advocate for causes I believe in, and I want to do it openly about who I am. I may be an atheist, but I don't want to leave my beloved state. It is my paradise and I want to fight to protect it. So please, work with me so that I can sign this with my name instead of, simply, “anonymous.” If I came out as atheist then I would never be welcomed to have a strong place in my paradise. I am forced to either stay in the closet as it were, and never be able to have the ability to be open about my lack of religious beliefs, or I can come out but face possible exile. I just love my state to be forced to move on, limping on one leg.

 

     Anonymous atheist in Utah

I feel the same about Trump and the same bewilderment at his election.  I also live in Utah. I get the idea that conservatives enjoy watching liberals "suffer", as it were, I mean they are really getting a kick out of posts like yours.

 I won't be paying attention to anything to do with the inauguration though.  I don't wish Trump well, he makes me sick to my stomach, really. I'm going into ignore mode for the next four years. Those who voted for him, can deal with him. 

 

[estradling75]

8 hours ago, Blueskye2 said:

I feel the same about Trump and the same bewilderment at his election.  I also live in Utah. I get the idea that conservatives enjoy watching liberals "suffer", as it were, I mean they are really getting a kick out of posts like yours.

 I won't be paying attention to anything to do with the inauguration though.  I don't wish Trump well, he makes me sick to my stomach, really. I'm going into ignore mode for the next four years. Those who voted for him, can deal with him. 

 

And conservatives get the idea that liberals enjoy watching conservatives "suffer"...   So it goes both ways... Liberal cheered the suffering of conservative under Obama and now that they see the shoe being put on the their foot instead, and they suddenly find the tactics to be "deplorable"

 

 

[Larry Cotrell]

@anonymousutahatheist, I am no Trump guy either and I understand that you just want to vent, that is completely okay. Only about 45% of Utahns voted for Trump (source). The reality is that most didn't. This is definitely important to remember because the majority of Utahns who voted did not vote for Trump.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

And conservatives get the idea that liberals enjoy watching conservatives "suffer"...   So it goes both ways... Liberal cheered the suffering of conservative under Obama and now that they see the shoe being put on the their foot instead, and they suddenly find the tactics to be "deplorable"

 

At the inauguration 8 years ago, when President Bush came out the audience started singing "Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye". I haven't seen that at this inauguration yet. I hope I never do again.

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, anonymousutahatheist said:

Was Hillary that bad?

No! she was much worse. 

I worked at one time for the defense department and had a security clearance.  I was also involved with a situation where sensitive classified information was compromised.   There is no way that an intelligent person can say that the improper care of sensitive classified information is in any way a qualification for a good politician let alone the president of this country.  If the mistreatment (lack of care) of women disqualifies a presidential candidate the mistreatment (lack of care) of the men and women put at risk for disregard of sensitive classified information is a much greater (by unimaginable proportions) disqualification. 

Also some questions about Bengasi:

Who was responsible for the orders that sent our ambassador to go to and remain in Bengasi?  Answer Hillary.

Who was responsible for the lack of security for the ambassador while in Bengasi?  Answer Hillary

What was so important in Bengasi?  What was our ambassador sent to Bengasi to do? Hillary has never given anybody even a hint.  Is lack of transparancy to citizens a qualifation of the President?

According to the Wall Street Journal – Some of the combatants in Bengasi that were involved in the murder of our ambassador were on the pay role of the state department headed up by Hilary.  As head of the state department Hillary did noting and never attempted to change any policy that contributed to the death of our ambassador.  I cannot understand why anyone thinks Hilary was even remotely qualified for Secretary of State unless they are completely blinded by party politics. 

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

At the inauguration 8 years ago, when President Bush came out the audience started singing "Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye". I haven't seen that at this inauguration yet. I hope I never do again.

Just saw the inauguration.  The crowd chanted, "Trump, Trump, Trump...".  But, I'm wondering if this is because somebody is trying to cause trouble.  During Trump rallies, the crowd would chant that or "USA USA USA" when some protester causes trouble so that the press can't pick up the protester's audio.  There hasn't been any reporting of it so I don't know what it was  I saw.

Edited January 20, 2017 by anatess2

[askandanswer]

• This program aired on national tv in Australia last Wednesday. I think its the best documentary prepared by a non-member that I've seen about the church. I'm putting a link to it here because I think it might be of interest to mostly for anonymousutahatheist, but perhaps also for a few others. The presenter/director of the program usually does comedy work and has had several shows of his own in the past, but in this program he takes a much more serious approach. From the perspective of an honest and objective outsider he attends and comments on General Conference, sings with Motab, lives with a bishop's family, accompanies the bishop on a home teaching visit, attends a class in MTC and a few other things. I think a brief log in is required to view the program but its well worth the effort. If for some reason the link below doesn't work, the title of the program is Shaun Micallef Stairway to Heaven, accessible through sbs.com.au/ondemand

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/847588931862

[Just_A_Guy]

On 1/19/2017 at 1:37 PM, anonymousutahatheist said:

So what happened? I have one theory.

Hello, Anonymousutahatheist, and welcome.   

Not to sound too flippant, but I have a contrasting theory about what happened:  The Democratic party became co-opted by interests that wanted to promote libertinism, endorse abortion-on-demand, generally roll back the role of the Christian religion in American socio-civic life, increasing dependence on--and therefore control by--the federal government in virtually all aspects of living, and convince the American people that there is such a thing as a free lunch.  These agendas have always been anathema to Mormon teaching and practice.  

I am extremely NeverTrump and am frankly humiliated by the way so many public Utah officials have kowtowed to him (especially Chaffetz) after initially expressing what should have been a principled opposition.  That said:  I agree with @unixknight and @estradling75; and I also agree with @Larry Cotrell that the bulk of Utahns did not vote for Trump and (speaking anecdotally) the vast majority of those who did vote for him did so with extreme reservations.  I think you would have some difficulty in finding a practicing Mormon who would agree that Donald Trump is fundamentally a good, honest and/or decent human being.

As a centrist-progressive, you view the Obama and potential Hillary administrations as quite innocuous.  And so they were--if you agreed with their political philosophies.  For those of us who didn't, it was eight years of seeing us and our children yoked to harebrained spending schemes, watching our children being indoctrinated in dubious social theories against our wishes, having our nation's good credit squandered as Foggy Bottom dithered over which freedom-loving peoples to support and which to betray; having racial tensions deliberately inflamed for political gain, being told the police were not to be trusted but then also having our sanity questioned for wanting to have guns to defend ourselves; seeing the blame for Islamist terrorist attacks on American soil being magically shunted onto white gun-owning Christians; and watching those who dared to speak up against all this being shunted ever-further towards the margins of society in education, in culture, and in the workplace (private as well as public sectors).  People were worried; and they were right to be so.
 

Quote

I have some proposals that I am making

1. I want to quit criticizing mormons for “running the State” and “taking all our money.” It would be ridiculous to not accept that a state with a wide majority of one religion would have no affect on the way it is legislated

2. I want to never again say nasty vulgar insults about mormons, whether it be to their face or nameless on the internet and condemn those that do.

3. I will not judge you for your “strange” religious practices if you refuse to judge anyone because of their “strange” lifestyle choices. As long you're in no danger and you can carry on your lifestyle, who cares? That is living in a free society

4. Stop with the stupid liquor laws. Surely you cant say you're not trying to impose your religious beliefs on us drinkers? I understand that you don't want drinking to be normalized in your world and you're probably mostly worried about your kids. Maybe for a change though, this kind of education could be more focused in classroom and moral issues could be stressed more in the home

5. Stop with the stupid sex-ed. Abstinence only education doesn't work. Key word is education. Of course abstinence is the only sure fire way to keep from getting pregnant, but that form of sex-ed only leaves teens more confused. They still have natural desires, but no idea of how their bodies even work. So sex-ed could be more robust, ensuring that kids know whats going on and how to protect themselves. If they need to avoid sex because of spiritual protection, then that should be focussed on at Church and in the Home, isn't that a fair compromise? One great benefit is that it will lower teenage pregnancies and abortions. No doubt both of those would reduce needs for avoidable abortions, and reduce a strain on welfare benefits.

6. Lets lead the nation on working to make voting easier. This should be common sense and bi-partisan but it is another victim of the Obama Hate years. Everyone that can, should vote. Lets set the standard in our state that we truly believe all Utahns should take party in their patriotic duty.

7. Lets lead the nation in a green energy party. We feel the disgusting side affects from pollution. We could lead the nation in promoting green energy. Our state is beautiful and that alone should be the driving factor behind protecting its health.

8. The Utah VS BYU rivalry will no longer be Mormon VS Non-Mormon. Utah was founded by Brigham Young and most of the students and fans are Mormon. Stop making it a religious battle. HeeHee, had to throw that one in there

I like your 1 and 2.  On 3 - Judge away, for all I care.  Another part of living in a free society is looking at the practices of other people, religions, subcultures, etc. and saying "you know what?  I don't agree with that, and it may be fine for them--but I don't want any part of it."  

On 4 - LDS ignorance of (and I don't mean this pejoratively) "liquor culture", probably results in a lot of bizarre rules from the standpoint of a responsible, occasional drinker.  But, there's the thing:  We, as Mormons, are happy not to drink; and if everyone in the state folllowed our example there would be no alcohol sold or consumed in the state; and DUIs, addiction, alcohol-related physiological illnesses, child abuse, and domestic violence would all drastically decrease.  If we're going to have to put up with the collateral consequences of alcohol abuse due to the fact that a substantial number of non-Mormons feel somehow unable to have meaningful social interactions without the presence of alcohol, then we do reserve the right to comment and criticize and try to legislate ways to minimize the consequences of alcohol consumption.  That's not a matter of imposing religion, per se; it's just a matter of protecting myself and my kids from a social problem that other people are creating.

On 5 - We can probably re-think the way we do sex ed and make it a little broader.  But some forms of sex ed are, arguably, simply grooming children to become willing partners and enter the sexual marketplace earlier; and so there's a fine line to be trod here.  The benefits of abstinence are not merely spiritual in nature; and avoiding mention of abstinence in schools isn't "compromise"--it's just another variant of "conservatives, shut up and let your betters run things the way they were meant to be run."  By the way, why do you think proper education can reduce teen substance abuse but not teen sexual experimentation? 

On 6 - A nice platitude; but I'm not sure exactly what it means in practice.  There's always going to be a balance between facilitating voting, and preventing fraud (which does exist, but not primarily in ways that presentation of a photo ID would prevent). I have no problem with requiring photo IDs from voters provided that there is a relatively simple mechanism to obtain government photo IDs in the first place; but I think mail-in ballots is where the real reform needs to happen.

On 7 - Again, nice vision.  The devil is in the details of implementation.  :-)  I was reading an article about Envision Utah the other day; and apparently we've already made some progress (if memory serves, actual miles driven and carbon emissions for the state are roughly where they were twenty-thirty years ago in spite of dramatic population increases).  But anyone who lives on the Wasatch Front can agree that there's more to be done.  

On 8 - Fair enough.  I'm a graduate of both schools myself.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[askandanswer]

On 1/20/2017 at 3:42 PM, anatess2 said:

I tend to get long-winded...

Delightfully and informatively so.

[Sunday21]

On 2017-01-21 at 6:15 PM, askandanswer said:

• This program aired on national tv in Australia last Wednesday. I think its the best documentary prepared by a non-member that I've seen about the church. I'm putting a link to it here because I think it might be of interest to mostly for anonymousutahatheist, but perhaps also for a few others. The presenter/director of the program usually does comedy work and has had several shows of his own in the past, but in this program he takes a much more serious approach. From the perspective of an honest and objective outsider he attends and comments on General Conference, sings with Motab, lives with a bishop's family, accompanies the bishop on a home teaching visit, attends a class in MTC and a few other things. I think a brief log in is required to view the program but its well worth the effort. If for some reason the link below doesn't work, the title of the program is Shaun Micallef Stairway to Heaven, accessible through sbs.com.au/ondemand

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/847588931862

Darn, blocked in my country! Was anyone able to see this? Perhaps some kind Aussie could post this to YouTube?

Edited January 22, 2017 by Sunday21

[Guest]

Let me rephrase and see if I understand correctly what you're saying.

On 1/19/2017 at 2:37 PM, anonymousutahatheist said:

  Dear LDS folks,

I'm a naughty anti-Mormon. Completely rude and I apologize for that. I realized that I just don't understand you.

Nice Mormons like Trump.  Nice Mormons hate Obama.  See, I understand you now.

Donald Trump sucks big time.

Chaffetz says Trump sucks.

Hillary and Obama are both awesome.

Romney sucked ditch water.

Clinton scandals were simply conspiracy theories with no real evidence.  And Chaffetz sucked for trying to investigate them in the first place.

Socialism good.  Trump bad.

Commentary on Joseph Smith's leg surgery that has nothing to do with anything about Trump or Hillary.

Blah blah blah more irrelevant stuff to gain LDS sympathies which has nothing to do with politics.

So, here's the deal I want to make with you.

1. I'll stop being a naughty anti-Mormon.

2. You stop being conservatives.

I "get" Mormons, so trust me.

When I run for office as a Democrat, I hope to get your vote.

That's what I got out of your message.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Guest