Shath

I want to believe, but I have a big problem trying to do that.

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A little about me.  I am Asian American.  I've studied Mormonism a lot.  If it was just the religion, I'd probably be a died and true believer of it.  I have a problem with the Mormons, or those who are members.

The worst people I've ever dealt with are Mormons.  They are racist, and have almost always excluded minorities from what I've seen.  I have a friend who is a big time Mormon.  He's one of the best people I know.  He is not a High Priest.  He's never been a Mormon Leader.  He is mocked at times from the members I've seen when he isn't around.  He's also Asian American.  He's one that many of the minorities hold in high regard.  The Mormons treat him like trash, and he's a Mormon himself.  The entire Mormon leadership is White in our area.  None of the Asian or Hispanic Members go to church because they feel the discrimination. They don't feel represented.  The whites do NOT understand this.  They think these people are inactive because they are not faithful or some stupid idea like that.  The real reason is they don't want to deal with that stupid stuff that the white members toss at them, and since they don't have any minorities in their leadership, no one tells them (not that they would listen to any of us).

My friend, he goes to church anyways.  I don't understand why, and he has given up trying to explain it to me.  None of us Asians or Hispanics understand why he goes to a church where they treat him like trash.

In school, these Mormons bullied me and my sisters and brothers.  They picked fights with us.  The tormented and hurt us.  Even when we moved to other places, the Mormon kids were like this.  I hate it. 

This is odd.  I LOVE the Book of Mormon.  I love the things it teaches.  It's like it speaks to me.  I can't understand why people treat me this way if they really believe in this stuff.  I am very confused over this.  If I could, I would join a church that believed in the stuff I read in the Book of Mormon.  I would join it in an instant.

However, I hate a lot of the Mormons that I've met.  They are hateful and horrible people in many ways.  There are a few good ones, but the worst people I've ever met have all been Mormons.  I can't see the religion with the people.

I love the idea that is taught in the books, but I hate the people that have hurt me for years.  How can I be a Mormon if it means I am part of those people?

How can I believe God leads a church where the people are like this?  I know a leader in our area, he is cheating on his wife.  I am sure his wife and family do not know.  He is rich, and he is white.  I don't understand why he is the church leader and my friend is not.  I can only guess it's because he is rich and white and my friend is not.

You might ask why I am here then.  I am here because I want to believe.  I want to find a reason to be a part of the Mormon church.  I really like the teachings and the Book of Mormon.  I have really big problems with how the LDS church is run, the way I've been treated, how I see others like me treated.  I REALLY want to believe. 

I know some good people (the friend I mentioned above for starters) that are Mormons.  They seem the exception rather than the norm thus far.  I really really really want to believe there is a church that does as the Book of Mormon teaches.  It's not the gospel that I have problems with, but the people in the church.  I cannot seem to reconcile the two.  I know it may seem stupid to many here, but this is a very big obstacle for me.  These people hate me.  It's very hard to join a church where people hate you or think less of you because you are not white, or some other reason.  If the church is true, how can I overcome this?

I ask, because I want to.  I think the Book of Mormon is true.  I think the Mormon gospel is true.  I really want to find a church which believe this stuff to.  I really want to believe.

But I hate the interactions I've had with many Mormons.

When I say I want to believe, this is true.  If I could have anything, it would be a church where the Book of Mormon is taught (along with the Doctrine and Covenants), and everyone is loved and everyone believes and loves everyone else.  I want this so bad I could almost taste it.  I don't know where to find it, but I really really want this.  I've wanted it for years.  I've even gone to the Mormon church, but I did not feel welcome.  I do not know what to do.  If there was another Mormon church that taught the same things, but we all loved each other, and everyone was seen as equal, and people accepted me, that's what I'm looking for.  I really really want to find it. 

Is there anything you can do to help me?

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Welcome, @Shath!

Once upon a time (in a real company), there was a department which was "the problem child".  The employees were arrogant and thought the universe existed to serve them and they shouldn't have to follow the same rules everyone else followed.  They thought other departments should cater to their wishes and thank them for the privilege.  The department manager was replaced multiple times.  Things never improved.  Each manager gradually adopted the attitudes of the employees (rather than turning them around).

This sounds like the area you're describing.  And I have to believe that it's limited to a specific area because:

a) In all my years in the church and all the wards I've been in, in 4 US states and 1 other country (not on a mission), I've never encountered anything remotely like what you describe.

b) I've never met a Mormon who described experiences like you describe.

c) I've heard lots of people who aren't Mormon describe opposite experiences.

None of that is meant to claim or imply that what you describe didn't happen, only that it's not the norm (based on my experience - which isn't the most extensive, but also not the most limited).  It implies that there are serious problems in the region you're describing.  Other posters here (I can think of 2) have described what I would call regional problems (though different from yours).  They're real, and short of massive change-over of the population or an overwhelmingly powerful personality to trigger difficult and painful changes, such problems can continue for generations and corrupt newcomers (like the department I described above).

Now I'm going to say something you may not like.  But I say it in hopes you can recognize a pattern and try to break it.  I've gone and read all the posts you've made on the forum, and there's a pattern in them of starting from a negative assumption (assume the worst until there's overwhelming evidence of positive) - and this is coming from someone who tends to be both skeptical and cynical.  Given what you've written above, this is understandable, but if you can't break it, it will hurt you more than it will ever hurt anyone else (and that approach will never elicit improvement from anyone).  So please break it!  Read some Gordon B. Hinckley stuff - I swear he must have been the most positive soul on the planet in the past few decades.

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“Two men looked out from prison bars, One saw the mud, the other saw stars.” - Dale Carnegie

There are rotten apples in every bunch but you are the one who chooses to see what you look for. If you look for racism, discrimination, hypocrisy, etc you'll find it. But if you choose to see the good and those who do try to follow Christ's example, you'll find that too. Also, I think you're making some assumptions as well as projecting which really isn't fair or helpful.

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5 hours ago, Shath said:

 

Is there anything you can do to help me?

Move to my ward! 

Lots of Asians in my ward.  We have 4 Filipino families (including mine), some Koreans,  one from Taiwan.  We also have some Brazilians and Puerto Ricans and African Americans.  And then we have a diverse white membership - a Welchman with a thick accent, some Italian, etc.

Anyway, there are always cliques within groups of people, be it schools, workplaces, organizations, neighborhoods.  My town, for example, has an area of Bosnians, another area of Albanians, another area of Indians, an area of Filipinos, another area of blacks, etc.  You'll know which area you are in because you'd see Filipino stores all over the place or Vietnamese stores, or Indian stores, etc.  It is a natural phenomenon for Filipinos to band together in camaraderie and choose Filipino mechanics and Filipino nurses and Filipino mortgage lenders, etc.  Whites do it too.  It's not racism.  It's affinity.  Being Asian, you are probably familiar with the Chinese and Japanese penchant for affinity... they're very very cliquey.

The Church is not exempt from this too.  The Church is not an organization of perfect people.  It's a hospital for sinners.  So, the way you deal with the cliques outside of Church is the same way you deal with the cliques within the Church.  You can carry the chip on your shoulder piled on by repeated incidences of cliquiness/racism.  Or you can choose to be an agent for change.  The white people in my ward can't ignore me.  I'm the Party Girl!  :D

Just my 2 cents.

P.S.  Certain areas - when the minority group is large enough - create a branch just for that group.  In Florida, there are Spanish branches because there are too many members that are not very good with English.  In San Francisco, there's a Korean branch.  Maybe you can check to see if there's a minority branch in your area and see if that's a better environment for you.

Edited by anatess2

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Hi @Shath, and welcome to the forum.

 

4 hours ago, Shath said:

A little about me.  I am Asian American.  I've studied Mormonism a lot.  If it was just the religion, I'd probably be a died and true believer of it.  I have a problem with the Mormons, or those who are members.

The worst people I've ever dealt with are Mormons.  They are racist, and have almost always excluded minorities from what I've seen.  I have a friend who is a big time Mormon.  He's one of the best people I know.  He is not a High Priest.  He's never been a Mormon Leader.  He is mocked at times from the members I've seen when he isn't around.  He's also Asian American.  He's one that many of the minorities hold in high regard.  The Mormons treat him like trash, and he's a Mormon himself.  The entire Mormon leadership is White in our area.  None of the Asian or Hispanic Members go to church because they feel the discrimination. They don't feel represented.  The whites do NOT understand this.  They think these people are inactive because they are not faithful or some stupid idea like that.  The real reason is they don't want to deal with that stupid stuff that the white members toss at them, and since they don't have any minorities in their leadership, no one tells them (not that they would listen to any of us).

My friend, he goes to church anyways.  I don't understand why, and he has given up trying to explain it to me.  None of us Asians or Hispanics understand why he goes to a church where they treat him like trash.

In school, these Mormons bullied me and my sisters and brothers.  They picked fights with us.  The tormented and hurt us.  Even when we moved to other places, the Mormon kids were like this.  I hate it. 

I'm sorry that the LDS folks in your area sinning in this way-- and yes they are sinning and going against their faith.  We are all sinners, though some sin in other ways than others.  I've lived in 6 different states and never encountered what you described, but then people do sin in different ways so I'm not doubting you here.  Perhaps @anatess2, who's Pilipino, can tell you of her positive experience in the places she's lived?   

4 hours ago, Shath said:

I know some good people (the friend I mentioned above for starters) that are Mormons.  They seem the exception rather than the norm thus far.  I really really really want to believe there is a church that does as the Book of Mormon teaches.  It's not the gospel that I have problems with, but the people in the church.  I cannot seem to reconcile the two.  I know it may seem stupid to many here, but this is a very big obstacle for me.  These people hate me.  It's very hard to join a church where people hate you or think less of you because you are not white, or some other reason.  If the church is true, how can I overcome this?

I ask, because I want to.  I think the Book of Mormon is true.  I think the Mormon gospel is true.  I really want to find a church which believe this stuff to.  I really want to believe.

But I hate the interactions I've had with many Mormons.

When I say I want to believe, this is true.  If I could have anything, it would be a church where the Book of Mormon is taught (along with the Doctrine and Covenants), and everyone is loved and everyone believes and loves everyone else.  I want this so bad I could almost taste it.  I don't know where to find it, but I really really want this.  I've wanted it for years.  I've even gone to the Mormon church, but I did not feel welcome.  I do not know what to do.  If there was another Mormon church that taught the same things, but we all loved each other, and everyone was seen as equal, and people accepted me, that's what I'm looking for.  I really really want to find it. 

Is there anything you can do to help me?

I too have had problems in the past with the sinners in church.  Not the same sins/problems you are describing here, but still they were major problems.  For me, it ultimately came down to this question: "Am I going to let these sinners stand between me and Christ?  Or is my testimony strong enough that I am still going to follow His commands, His teachings, and be His disciple, regardless of what any other mortal is doing?"

I wish I could say that I always choose the latter option, but alas I did not- I stumbled for a time and kept distance between Christ & His Church because of what mortal sinners were doing. I do regret that weakness and that poor decision did bring me pain.   I have since found the strength and firmness of testimony to keep my eyes focused on Christ and not of sinful mortals.  I try to be a disciple of Christ, and follow His teachings (both for myself and those around me).  Alas, again I do still stumble...and then Christ does forgive me and help me repent (aka change).  I do my best to forgive myself in those moments and accept the changes Christ prompts me.   And part of that is me learning to forgive those around me.  

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6 hours ago, Shath said:

A little about me.  I am Asian American. 

So am I.

6 hours ago, Shath said:

The worst people I've ever dealt with are Mormons.  They are racist, and have almost always excluded minorities from what I've seen.  I have a friend who is a big time Mormon.  He's one of the best people I know.  He is not a High Priest.  He's never been a Mormon Leader.  He is mocked at times from the members I've seen when he isn't around.  He's also Asian American.  He's one that many of the minorities hold in high regard.  The Mormons treat him like trash, and he's a Mormon himself.  The entire Mormon leadership is White in our area. 

I've only experienced this about three times in my life.  And I know they were isolated incidents.  As a whole, there isn't a lot of racism in the Church.  Sure, we'd like it to not exist at all.  But a small amount is kind of expected when you're talking about dealing with human beings.  Where do you live that this happens so frequently?

6 hours ago, Shath said:

None of the Asian or Hispanic Members go to church because they feel the discrimination. They don't feel represented.  The whites do NOT understand this.  They think these people are inactive because they are not faithful or some stupid idea like that.  The real reason is they don't want to deal with that stupid stuff that the white members toss at them, and since they don't have any minorities in their leadership, no one tells them (not that they would listen to any of us).

Well, one thing I see here is that you yourself are seeing racial barriers and racial lines.  Why do you feel you need to be represented by anyone of any particular race?  I never have.  I've had white leaders, black leaders, asian leaders, and hispanic leaders.  I never really gave it much thought.  It never mattered to me.  But can you give some examples of this mockery or "stupid stuff" that gets tossed at them?  And what efforts have you made to tell the leadership to verify that they wouldn't listen?

6 hours ago, Shath said:

My friend, he goes to church anyways.  I don't understand why, and he has given up trying to explain it to me.  None of us Asians or Hispanics understand why he goes to a church where they treat him like trash.

In school, these Mormons bullied me and my sisters and brothers.  They picked fights with us.  The tormented and hurt us.  Even when we moved to other places, the Mormon kids were like this.  I hate it. 

OK.  So, here are some examples.  Picking fights is obviously not what the Church teaches.  And if it is in the US, it is illegal.  I'm finding this absolutely shocking.  I've lived in many areas and attended over 100 wards.  I've never seen anyone that wanted to pick a fight with me just because I was Asian.  I have no idea how anyone who behaves that way can be considered a Mormon in good standing.

In fact, my wife (a white lady) was bullied by others in her ward.  But she was also bullied by others at school who were not Mormons.  She just got bullied.  But there were also many who did not.  This behavior had nothing to do with race.  It was just a bunch of bad people.  But in spite of this behavior (in two cities in which she lived growing up) she never attributed it to "being Mormon".  I'm afraid that you're attributing every thing to that.

6 hours ago, Shath said:

This is odd.  I LOVE the Book of Mormon.  I love the things it teaches.  It's like it speaks to me.  I can't understand why people treat me this way if they really believe in this stuff.  I am very confused over this.  If I could, I would join a church that believed in the stuff I read in the Book of Mormon.  I would join it in an instant.

This is the answer.  I can't explain all these people's behavior.  But in the breadth of experience I've had, this just isn't very common.  Tt is just horrible to hear that there are people like that.  And I make no excuses for those who have treated you so badly.  And I do admit that a church like ours should show good examples of what good people should be.  I only say that your experience is not as common as your limited experience may lead you to believe.

Now, take a look at what I've just put together from your post.

6 hours ago, Shath said:

They are racist, and have almost always excluded minorities from what I've seen.

He's also Asian American.  He's one that many of the minorities hold in high regard. 

The entire Mormon leadership is White in our area. 

None of the Asian or Hispanic Members go to church because they feel the discrimination. They don't feel represented. 

The whites do NOT understand this. 

The real reason is they don't want to deal with that stupid stuff that the white members toss at them

and since they don't have any minorities in their leadership, no one tells them (not that they would listen to any of us).

None of us Asians or Hispanics understand why he goes to a church where they treat him like trash.

He is rich, and he is white.  I can only guess it's because he is rich and white and my friend is not.

It's very hard to join a church where people hate you or think less of you because you are not white, or some other reason.

How much of your post says everything is because of race?  I'm not making excuses for other people's bad behavior.  But why do you attribute everything to race?  Believe me when I say that I have felt the brunt of racism in my life.  But to believe that every wrong in life is due to racism is just plain wrong.

Start thinking about seeing things through a different lens.  Truthfully, if I were in your shoes, I'd confront everyone you just mentioned doing evil and ask them,"How can you call yourself a Mormon and do this great evil?  How is it that you can sin against God and believe that you will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?"

I believe that many will either bow their heads in shame and possibly begin repenting or they will admit that they don't actually believe the faith.  Then you will know who is and who is not a Mormon.

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I am not baptised but I have just found out for sure in my heart that the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith restored the true church to the earth.

I can understand the difficulty you are having with some of the other members.  I had some minor problems when I started attending LDS church, I realise now it was just a misunderstanding.  I'm not trying to minimise your experience, but what you are experiencing is bad members not a bad church. Maybe this video will help a little bit, it's by a temple recommend holding LDS member and its very raw and very honest.  Don't give up on the church because of other members.

 

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58 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@Shath. Hi! Glad you are here! Do you have a favorite part of the Book of Mormon?

When I first read I tried Nephi.  Second Nephi is boring.  I put it down for a little time.  I picked it up and started reading Mosiah, near the middle.  I couldn't put it down.  I read and finished the entire book of Mormon.  I would say my favorite parts are either Alma or 3rd Nephi (after chapter 10) and 4th Nephi.

 

8 hours ago, Grunt said:

How often do you go to church?  How many different churches have you visited?

I don't go to church much.  The background of my family is Buddhist.  I am not Buddhist.  I've gone to Catholic, Methodist and Baptist most.  I've visited with Pentecostals...but some of that was way far out there too crazy for me.  If not crazy strange, Pentecostals are the opposite, much too serious.  I also don't believe what they say.  Methodist, the younger ones I know, don't practice what they teach either.  They are not mean, but they are immoral.  They don't believe in chastity, or the ones my age.  Baptists seem the nicest.  They seem to do the most in what they teach.  I believe there must be authority from God.  No authority, it is not okay from heaven.  That leaves Catholic, Mormon, or Muslim.  I'm not Muslim.

That leaves Catholic or Mormon.  The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are what I believe.  I think they are true.  I can't understand why the Mormons are not good in my school though and why they treat me like this.  I know we have several minorities that are Mormons that don't go to church.  They tell me they believe but do not go because Mormons don't like them. 

I have gone to church with the missionaries, but the kids that beat me up were there and we didn't get along.  I saw what the other people told me, they don't have any minority leaders.  They think the minorities don't have enough faith and that is why they are inactive.  My friends told me the truth though, they don't go because they don't like the discrimination and persecution.  The whites just want to feel that they are better and don't care about the real reasons.  The whites think it's because they are inactive and don't have enough faith.  That's BS.  I have one friend who goes (older person) and I heard what they said when he wasn't around.  These people weren't nice about him and he's the only active minority in the ward.

I can't go to that church though.  They boys broke my nose.  I was sitting at lunch, reading math and not bothering anyone.  One of them came over and hit me in the face for no reason.  That broke my nose and then went back with four others and laughed at me.  I am not a fighting person, but even if I was, I can't take five of them on.  They know this and they mocked me about it.  I can't go to a church with these people.  I want to go to this church if it had people that didn't treat me like this, but I can't go to church with these guys.  I know we should love all people, but after this an other things, I can't.  Hate is too kind to say how I feel about them.  I shouldn't, but I can't help it, I hate those boys.  I love the Book of Mormon, but I don't see what I can do about it.

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I came here to try to find hope that Mormons were different than what I see in my life.  I find that they are not.  There are some good, but many bad.  They do not understand charity.  They hate others.  Instead of reading their Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and teaching that, they use far right analogies.  They seem to use Conservative thoughts as their religion.  It is not open to anyone.  It is only open to Far Rights.  It seems more exclusive to Far Right.  Why do they think a far right political ideas are their religion?  It excludes all others.

I am not far right.  I think I'm more in the middle.  I don't want it to end like this.  I would like a reason to find a Mormon church I could be a part of that lives the Book of Mormon and Bible.  I don't think I'm going to find that here though. 

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

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46 minutes ago, Shath said:

I came here to try to find hope that Mormons were different than what I see in my life.  I find that they are not.  There are some good, but many bad.  They do not understand charity.  They hate others.  Instead of reading their Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and teaching that, they use far right analogies.  They seem to use Conservative thoughts as their religion.  It is not open to anyone.  It is only open to Far Rights.  It seems more exclusive to Far Right.  Why do they think a far right political ideas are their religion?  It excludes all others.

I am not far right.  I think I'm more in the middle.  I don't want it to end like this.  I would like a reason to find a Mormon church I could be a part of that lives the Book of Mormon and Bible.  I don't think I'm going to find that here though. 

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

Shath,

I believe you'd find it a much more pleasant experience if you simply explained things instead of commenting.  We've asked many questions of clarification.  We really WANT to understand you.  But you've blocked us from understanding you.  Can you really pass judgment upon your reception here when you continue to dodge all our questions when they are merely meant to get better understanding?

Please understand that when you dodge the questions, you make it seem like you WANT to be misunderstood.  Is that what you want?  If not, then just answer the questions.  Understanding is the gateway to friendship.  We've been asking you to do your part in helping us understand.  You've been denying us that.  Who, then, has reached out in friendship and who is denying that hand?

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57 minutes ago, Shath said:

I came here to try to find hope that Mormons were different than what I see in my life.  I find that they are not.  There are some good, but many bad.  They do not understand charity.  They hate others.  Instead of reading their Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and teaching that, they use far right analogies.  They seem to use Conservative thoughts as their religion.  It is not open to anyone.  It is only open to Far Rights.  It seems more exclusive to Far Right.  Why do they think a far right political ideas are their religion?  It excludes all others.

I am not far right.  I think I'm more in the middle.  I don't want it to end like this.  I would like a reason to find a Mormon church I could be a part of that lives the Book of Mormon and Bible.  I don't think I'm going to find that here though. 

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

Shath.  This is what I hear - "They don't agree with me. They are evil".

Do you know that Harry Reid - ultra left liberal progressive - is a Mormon?

And just here on this forum - @LiterateParakeet - Democrat, Black Lives Matter supporter.  Mormon.  Go say Hi to her.   We have lots of people on this forum alone from all sides of the political spectrum here and abroad.  You should say '"hi" to our Australian and Canadian wing of the forum.  They have interesting social and political views.  I'm a classic liberal (not the same as an American liberal today - Philippine politics is very different).

Anyway, from my chair, it seems like you're not looking for good.  You're looking for reasons to hate Mormons.  Until you take that GIANT chip off your shoulder you will not find good Mormons.  Which is sad.   Because, hey, I'd like to think I'm a good one!   I promise - I won't break your nose and if I ever see that guy who broke your nose, I'll go break his for you. 

Edited by anatess2

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On 12/18/2017 at 9:30 PM, Shath said:

When I first read I tried Nephi.  Second Nephi is boring.  I put it down for a little time.  I picked it up and started reading Mosiah, near the middle.  I couldn't put it down.  I read and finished the entire book of Mormon.  I would say my favorite parts are either Alma or 3rd Nephi (after chapter 10) and 4th Nephi.

My favorite is 2 Nephi 2!  It's what got me hooked on the Book of Mormon.  I was Catholic born and raised...

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2 hours ago, Shath said:

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

It is your choice... and it only hurts you...  Your rejection of us, harms us not in the slightest you simply join the thousands of others that have done so.

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4 hours ago, Shath said:

I came here to try to find hope that Mormons were different than what I see in my life.  I find that they are not.  There are some good, but many bad.  They do not understand charity.  They hate others.  Instead of reading their Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and teaching that, they use far right analogies.  They seem to use Conservative thoughts as their religion.  It is not open to anyone.  It is only open to Far Rights.  It seems more exclusive to Far Right.  Why do they think a far right political ideas are their religion?  It excludes all others.

I am not far right.  I think I'm more in the middle.  I don't want it to end like this.  I would like a reason to find a Mormon church I could be a part of that lives the Book of Mormon and Bible.  I don't think I'm going to find that here though. 

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

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@Shah. Hi. I am left wing! Work in the temple. Teach in Relief Society. Some lds people are right wing but in Canada many are left wing. My town and thus my ward is very left wing. I suspect that most lds saints in Europe and Australia would be considered left wing by Texan standards. And of course Canadian saints would drive them mental!

i was explaining to the sister who schedules in the temple that I would happily cover many days that American saints find difficult because Canadians have holidays on different days. I explained that the coming Monday was Louis Riel day, she asked if Louis Riiel would be attending and I said, No, sadly we hung the poor man because we were trying to steal his land and the land of his followers. Consequently, we had apologized and declared a day of holiday in his honour. The sister looked at me as if I was crazy and declared that US never apologized for anything! I am not convinced that this is true but it does indicate a different point of view.

i was at a lds party in a border town and we had both US and Canadian saints. One of the party goers told us how angry he was at Canadian border guards who asked if he had firearms with him. The Canadians looked at him cautiously and asked if he carried guns around usually. Apparently not, but he felt the question was cheeky. By the way, the US border guards ask me the same question but I feel that they have the perfect right to do so.

i do not have the right to free speech. For example, I am not allowed to spread hatred. If I were to declare the holocaust to be a myth, I could be locked up. I am very comfortable living with this restriction because I want to live in a society which restricts the right to spread hatred. 

I pay taxes in excess of 30% of my income. Education is paid for by the province which means that poor cities have more not less money for education.

Anyway, if you want to move to Canada, there is an easy way to do this. If you take a 4 year university degree in C, you have 3 years to find a job. If you do, then you can stay. I suspect, however that different parts of the USA are more left leaning. California, Vermont? 

Australia used to have a very youth friendly immigration system for those under 25.

Good luck with everything!  

Edited by Sunday21

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32 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@Shah. Hi. I am left wing! Work in the temple. Teach in Relief Society. Some lds people are right wing but in Canada many are left wing. My town and thus my ward is very left wing. I suspect that most lds saints in Europe and Australia would be considered left wing by Texan standards. And of course Canadian saints would drive them mental!

i was explaining to the sister who schedules in the temple that I would happily cover many days that American saints find difficult because Canadians have holidays on different days. I explained that the coming Monday was Louis Riel day, she asked if Louis Riiel would be attending and I said, No, sadly we hung the poor man because we were trying to steal his land and the land of his followers. Consequently, we had apologized and declared a day of holiday in his honour. The sister looked at me as if I was crazy and declared that US never apologized for anything! I am not convinced that this is true but it does indicate a different point of view.

i was at a lds party in a border town and we had both US and Canadian saints. One of the party goers told us how angry he was at Canadian border guards who asked if he had firearms with him. The Canadians looked at him cautiously and asked if he carried guns around usually. Apparently not, but he felt the question was cheeky. By the way, the US border guards ask me the same question but I feel that they have the perfect right to do so.

i do not have the right to free speech. For example, I am not allowed to spread hatred. If I were to declare the holocaust to be a myth, I could be locked up. I am very comfortable living with this restriction because I want to live in a society which restricts the right to spread hatred. 

I pay taxes in excess of 30% of my income. Education is paid for by the province which means that poor cities have more not less money for education.

Anyway, if you want to move to Canada, there is an easy way to do this. If you take a 4 year university degree in C, you have 3 years to find a job. If you do, then you can stay. I suspect, however that different parts of the USA are more left leaning. California, Vermont? 

Australia used to have a very youth friendly immigration system for those under 25.

Good luck with everything!  

Thank you for this!  It reminded me why I stopped visiting Canada.

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I am not LDS but have met many and they have been very nice and friendly, I guess things can be different in church.  I go to a pentacostal church and they are far from serious, and we have many different races and colors.  I was born Jewish and converted to Christianity.  But remember people are human, no one is perfect no matter their religion, we are still in the body and won't be perfected until we go to heaven.   Also you mention the Book of Mormon, what about the bible?  All Christian religions should follow the bible.  You seem to find things wrong with everyone, Methodist, Pentacostal, Mormon, etc....  You will find in this world what you expect to find.

Here is a little parable..........

Couple stops at gas station, and asks attendant what people are like in this town,  attendant says what are they like in your town, they say, they are nice, friendly, happy, warm, accepting, attendant says that is what you will find here. 

Later another customer asks same question, what are people like in this town, attendant again asks what are they like in your town, customer says they are mean, hateful, racist, unfriendly, and the attendant says that is what you will find here as well.

Another 

When dogs are raised in puppy mills and aren't socialized, and then later adopted into a loving home, they react like they are still in a cage.  They are hard to train and are frequently fearful of a loving humans, even after a long time of their humans demonstrating love and that they will not hurt them, sometimes it takes years or never for the dogs to finally relax and believe they are loved. 

Sometimes we are like that!!

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Shath said:

I came here to try to find hope that Mormons were different than what I see in my life.  I find that they are not.  There are some good, but many bad.  They do not understand charity.  They hate others.  Instead of reading their Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants and teaching that, they use far right analogies.  They seem to use Conservative thoughts as their religion.  It is not open to anyone.  It is only open to Far Rights.  It seems more exclusive to Far Right.  Why do they think a far right political ideas are their religion?  It excludes all others.

I am not far right.  I think I'm more in the middle.  I don't want it to end like this.  I would like a reason to find a Mormon church I could be a part of that lives the Book of Mormon and Bible.  I don't think I'm going to find that here though. 

I am sad, it is like there is no hope of finding a church that believes the Book of Mormon today.  I wish there was though.

You know C.S. Lewis had a very perceptive comment about becoming a Christian, it may apply to you and Mormonism:

Quote

 If what you want is an argument against Christianity (and I well remember how eagerly I looked for such arguments when I began to be afraid it was true) you can easily find some stupid and unsatisfactory Christian and say, ‘So there’s your boasted new man! Give me the old kind.’ But if once you have begun to see that Christianity is on other grounds probable, you will know in your heart that this is only evading the issue. What can you ever really know of other people’s souls—of their temptations, their opportunities, their struggles? One soul in the whole creation you do know: and it is the only one whose fate is placed in your hands. If there is a God, you are, in a sense, alone with Him. You cannot put Him off with speculations about your next door neighbours or memories of what you have read in books. What will all that chatter and hearsay count (will you even be able to remember it?) when the anaesthetic fog which we call ‘nature’ or ‘the real world’ fades away and the Presence in which you have always stood becomes palpable, immediate, and unavoidable? (Mere Christianity, p 216 - 217)

See, joining a church is not about "them". You do not know other people's struggles you do not know their challenges. Of course there are nasty people, there always will be. But there are also good people. In fact, you said one of the best people you know attends our church. So in the end It has, and always will be, about you. As C. S. Lewis says, in a real sense you are alone with God. Consider this and think on it. 

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I believe this thread is demonstrative of the human tendency to take a very narrow perspective and assume that everyone in the conversation knows and understands that perspective, and that their comments can be interpreted in relation to it.

I'm guessing @Shath is thinking of the poor, sick, and afflicted who are truly in need of help, who are incapacitated in some way.  I imagine he hears people talking about working in exchange for assistance and envisions a cruel task-master taunting some poor, feeble soul.  And I'm guessing he thinks everyone else is seeing the same vision he is.

Meanwhile, those of us talking about the Church's welfare system are envisioning a healthy person who recently lost their job and is struggling in this economy to find a new one, so they need help.  We invite this person to help out the Church by giving of their time and strength in exchange for the Church's financial assistance.  This allows the job-seeker to maintain a bit of dignity.  (See Handbook 2, chapter 6)

I expect Shath is perhaps a high school student (based on his "at school" comments), or perhaps early college.  He may not have the life experience which gives one understanding of the discomfort one feels accepting handouts when one is fully capable of work (but just can't yet find employment).  Meanwhile, Shath is feeling like we're ignoring the scriptures.  Let's look at a few things the scriptures teach us:

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Genesis 3:17 (see also Moses 4:25)

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Lord tells Adam that if he wants to eat (bread), he'd better work (sweat) for it.

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Proverbs 6

6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:

7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,

8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:

11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.

How can you not smile, thou sluggard? :D

Quote

1 Thessalonians 2:9

For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

2 Thessalonians 3:8

8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

We set the example - we were able to work for our own support, so we did, so as not to burden or inconvenience you.

Quote

2 Nephi 5:17

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.

"Industrious" is one of the great distinguishers between the Nephites (who were blessed by God with plenty) and the Lamanites (who weren't).  If no one labored, everyone would starve to death.  Hence God's command to work (if you are able).

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Mosiah 2:14

And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

Ah, Benjamin - the king cited earlier by Shath for teaching about charity.  Yet he starts his sermons pointing out that he has worked hard so that his people would NOT have to give him anything (charity or otherwise).

NOTE: The entire Book of Mormon is filled with cycle after cycle of people working hard and being blessed for it, and using those blessings to aid those who were unable to provide for themselves.

Quote

Mosiah 27:5

Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.

And here, those who serve in the Church are to labor for their own support rather than relying on others to give them what they need.  Except - when?  In sickness or much want.  Every person in this thread accused of being uncharitable is actually trying to teach this principle - we help those in need.  And part of that help includes helping them get out of need and into self-sufficiency - which, as we can see, God and His prophets have been teaching since the days of Adam.

Quote

D&C 42:42-43

42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer.

43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

Well, we could go on and on.  But it should not be needed.  When one recognizes that they might be focusing on a narrow slice of reality, and that others might be viewing a different slice (which may or may not include all or part of one's own), then wisdom says to step back and take another look.

One of the most charitable things any human can do is to offer honest work to another human.  Sitting idle (whatever the reason), is damaging to the soul of mankind.  To have something worthwhile to do is a gift.

When a person is truly incapable of work - bed-ridden, suffering from some disabling problem, etc. - then of course we provide sufficient for their needs and ask nothing in return.  And one of their needs, if possible, God willing, is to help them to get out of that situation and into one where they have free use of the mind, heart, and body God gave them - not only so they can feel the satisfaction which comes from activity, but so that they can, if possible, reach a point where they can help others - because that is perhaps the most noble work any of us can do.

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On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:34 AM, estradling75 said:

It is your choice... and it only hurts you...  Your rejection of us, harms us not in the slightest you simply join the thousands of others that have done so.

I think I found my answer in this thread and another on Mormons.  I do not think some Mormons are Christian.  I think their gospel is Christian.  Telling one to go away is not Christian.  This is a bad Christmas gift to me, but if that is what it is, that is what I get.  I have every reason to hate Mormons after what they did to me.  Some are sympathetic, some here hate me I think.  I came to find answers, but some condemned me, the victim.  I think Mormons may have a problem with this.  I read about BYU and though it was a different victim blaming, they blamed victims too. 

Thank you to those who were nice in the thread and others.  Those who hated on me, thanks for chasing me away from the Mormon church.  I have found it is probably not what I am looking for.  Some Mormons are nice, but I don't think Mormons are Christian.  It is not their gospel, but how they act.  I found they misunderstand charity.  They condone discrimination and racism.  They do not look to find solutions to why minorities do not go to Mormon churches, even if Minorities have no problems with the Book of Mormon (most of those I think are White Evangelicals that lean far right).  They at best ignore the discrimination, at the middle blame the victim, and at worst are the bullies who send others like me to the hospital.  I wish my answer was different.  I thought about what you wrote for several days before deciding this.  Sadly, I think this is my last time here.  I don't know if I will keep looking or not.  Right now I think I like the Mormon gospel, but I don't like Mormons very much.  That is a problem I think.  Thank you for your help in my decision.  I thank those who were nice, and those who were not nice.  They both helped me decide.

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