What if the unsealed portion of the gold plates became available and were proven to be accurately translated?

[person0]

I am thinking that rather than people joining the Church in droves, there would probably remain a large scale apostasy with denominations accepting both the Book of Mormon and Bible, and yet rejecting much of everything else.  Some might then accept Joseph Smith but claim that there was no succession afterward. Others might claim he was a prophet only until the translation was complete, or that he was never actually a prophet but simply a servant of God.  And yet others would likely even point to him as a wicked man who wanted to take the glory of the translation to himself while hiding the plates from the rest of the world.  We would then have many groups re-translate and make their own demographically catered versions.

In light of a continued apostasy even with proof, there are existing 'scholarly' articles about how the doctrine of the trinity is compatible with the Book of Mormon.  With so many denominations having the Bible, and yet differing doctrines, why would we expect it to be any different?  From this perspective, it makes even more sense why the Lord wouldn't bother to lay out additional physical evidence. We don't need that kind of confusion on top of what's already out there.  I am actually grateful this is not the case.  I would rather have my spiritual confirmation from the Holy Ghost and no physical plates.

Thoughts?

Edited March 17, 2018 by person0

[Guest]

Only a small percentage of people would be affected by such a hypothetical.  People simply aren't convinced by physical evidence or logic.  That's the simple truth.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

 People simply aren't convinced by physical evidence or logic. 

So true. 

[Vort]

The Book of Mormon is proven true! So, then, I can start following its precepts, join the Church that brought it forth, conform my life to those standards, and be a "Mormon".

Or I can keep fornicating and carousing.

This is a choice? For most people, I submit that it will be an easy choice to make, and it won't involve being dunked under water.

[Guest]

In my opinion, the Book of Mormon is already proven to be true - chiasmus, wordprint studies, and hebraisms (among other things) prove that the Book of Mormon was indeed of divine origin, and you have to be willfully blind to these facts (or ignorant of them) to claim the Book of Mormon is not of divine origin. (Of course, the testimony of these things is nothing compared to gaining a spiritual testimony of the Book of Mormon, but the "proof" within the Book of Mormon, when one really stops to consider, is not easy to dismiss).  I am sorry to be so blunt, but let's face it - when you take a step back at the non-spiritual evidence supporting the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, you have to admit from this evidence alone that the Book of Mormon is, beyond reasonable doubt, exactly what it says it is - a divine and historical record of an ancient civilization in America.)

Yet, people aren't joining the Church in droves, so I suspect they wouldn't start doing this if the unsealed portion were brought forth and provided further "proof" . . . 

(funny story - I dabbled in Mormon Dialogue awhile back to see if I could make some new friends, and got eaten alive on the forum for stating the above - apparently all of the nonbelievers on the site, of which there are apparently many, were furious that I would call them "willfully blind".  I decided I was not a good fit for that community . . . )

Edited March 18, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[zil]

The "nutritional" info is plain as day on the back of bags of potato chips, ice cream, and Oreos - but we still buy them.  I fail to see why the Book of Mormon should be any different.

[person0]

2 hours ago, zil said:

The "nutritional" info is plain as day on the back of bags of potato chips, ice cream, and Oreos - but we still buy them.  I fail to see why the Book of Mormon should be any different.

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Only a small percentage of people would be affected by such a hypothetical.  People simply aren't convinced by physical evidence or logic.  That's the simple truth.

In spiritual matters, that may be a good thing--at least in terms of empirical evidence and the reasoning of man, such as proposed hypothetically in the OP. . To me, that is why God gave us Moroni 10 and Alma 32 rather than returning the plates to earth or revealing the location of the "Nephites lived here" sign.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 18, 2018 by wenglund

[bytebear]

Lamen and Lemuel pretty much knew their dad was a prophet given all that happened.  Still, they didn't much care.

[truthseaker]

@person0 forgive another ignorant question but what is the 'unsealed portion'?

[person0]

2 hours ago, truthseaker said:

@person0 forgive another ignorant question but what is the 'unsealed portion'?

Quote

When Moroni was finishing the Book of Mormon record, he was commanded to seal up some of the plates, and Joseph Smith was later commanded not to translate them. This sealed portion contains the complete record of the vision of the brother of Jared (see Ether 4:4–5). This vision included “all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof”. So basically the Lord revealed to the brother of Jared the history of mankind, and the sealed portion of the plates was Moroni’s translated copy of it.

Few people have seen the sealed record—for instance, the Nephites in the land Bountiful at the Savior’s coming and Moroni. The Lord said the sealed portion would be revealed to the world “in mine own due time” (Ether 3:27). He also said it would “not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord” (Ether 4:6).

According to Joseph Smith’s associates who saw the golden plates, anywhere from half to two-thirds of all the plates were in the sealed portion.

(What is the “sealed portion” . . .)

The reason I specifically mentioned the unsealed portion only, is because there is a lot in the sealed portion that we have never even had access too, if that were to be revealed, it would open a whole new can of worms that I didn't really want to address in my OP.  There were also 116 additional pages of manuscript that were translated from the unsealed portion of the plates which is commonly understood to have been the Book of Lehi, which were lost and not re-translated.  The additional information in that portion alone would potentially be a significant addition to the knowledge we have.

Edited March 18, 2018 by person0

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

The Book of Mormon is proven true! So, then, I can start following its precepts, join the Church that brought it forth, conform my life to those standards, and be a "Mormon".

Or I can keep fornicating and carousing.

This is a choice? For most people, I submit that it will be an easy choice to make, and it won't involve being dunked under water.

Sad truth.  Desire trumps facts and evidence all too often.

[The Folk Prophet]

32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Sad truth.  Desire trumps facts and evidence all too often.

How many trumps can a Trump trump if a Trump trumps trumps?

[Vort]

57 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How many trumps can a Trump trump if a Trump trumps trumps?

Nomen est omen.

[truthseaker]

7 hours ago, person0 said:

The reason I specifically mentioned the unsealed portion only, is because there is a lot in the sealed portion that we have never even had access too, if that were to be revealed, it would open a whole new can of worms that I didn't really want to address in my OP.  There were also 116 additional pages of manuscript that were translated from the unsealed portion of the plates which is commonly understood to have been the Book of Lehi, which were lost and not re-translated.  The additional information in that portion alone would potentially be a significant addition to the knowledge we have.

So there is the Book of Mormon (translated from Golden plates) which is part of the unsealed portion? Then there are the Book of Lehi (unsealed) that were lost and not translated again (why not?) and there is also a sealed portion that humans don't have access too, is that right?

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

So there is the Book of Mormon (translated from Golden plates) which is part of the unsealed portion? Then there are the Book of Lehi (unsealed) that were lost and not translated again (why not?) and there is also a sealed portion that humans don't have access too, is that right?

"When Moroni was finishing the Book of Mormon record, he was commanded to seal up some of the plates, and Joseph Smith was later commanded not to translate them. This sealed portion contains the complete record of the vision of the brother of Jared (see Ether 4:4–5). This vision included “all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof” (2 Nephi 27:10–11; see also Ether 3:25). So basically the Lord revealed to the brother of Jared the history of mankind, and the sealed portion of the plates was Moroni’s translated copy of it.

Few people have seen the sealed record—for instance, the Nephites in the land Bountiful at the Savior’s coming (see Ether 4:1–2) and Moroni (see Ether 12:24). The Lord said the sealed portion would be revealed to the world “in mine own due time” (Ether 3:27). He also said it would “not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord” (Ether 4:6; see also 2 Nephi 27:8).

According to Joseph Smith’s associates who saw the golden plates, anywhere from half to two-thirds of all the plates were in the sealed portion (see Kirk B. Henrichsen, “What Did the Golden Plates Look Like?”New Era, July 2007, 31)."

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2011/10/to-the-point/what-is-the-sealed-portion-of-the-book-of-mormon-and-will-we-ever-know-whats-in-it?lang=eng

[person0]

2 hours ago, truthseaker said:

So there is the Book of Mormon (translated from Golden plates) which is part of the unsealed portion? Then there are the Book of Lehi (unsealed) that were lost and not translated again (why not?) and there is also a sealed portion that humans don't have access too, is that right?

That is correct.  The reason that the lost pages were not re-translated was because the Lord commanded Joseph Smith not to do so.
 

Quote

Joseph Smith was forbidden by the Lord to re-translate that part of the record previously translated because those who had stolen the manuscript planned to publish it in an altered form to discredit his ability to translate accurately.
(EOM)

9 Therefore, you have delivered them up, yea, that which was sacred, unto wickedness.
10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.
11 And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written;
12 And, on this wise, the devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work;
13 For he hath put into their hearts to do this, that by lying they may say they have caught you in the words which you have pretended to translate.
(D&C 10:9-13)

Additionally, you should know that Nephi was commanded to briefly abridge the writings of his father.  The Lord knew the Book of Lehi would be lost and had it all planned out.

Quote

16 And now I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my father hath written, for he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams; and he also hath written many things which he prophesied and spake unto his children, of which I shall not make a full account.
17 But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life.
(1 Nephi 1: 16-17)

[truthseaker]

2 hours ago, person0 said:

That is correct.  The reason that the lost pages were not re-translated was because the Lord commanded Joseph Smith not to do so.
 

Additionally, you should know that Nephi was commanded to briefly abridge the writings of his father.  The Lord knew the Book of Lehi would be lost and had it all planned out.

Thank you so much, sorry for all the questions, they must seem pretty basic to you guys

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, truthseaker said:

Thank you so much, sorry for all the questions, they must seem pretty basic to you guys

No apologies for doing awesome stuff!  (Like asking questions)

[Earl]

 

Hi,new member here.

This topic is an interesting one.I have no knowledge of the LDS and the sealed material however there is a comparative statement in Revelations 2.17....to him that overcometh  will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written,which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.KJV

Overcometh--A confusing word for Jesus said not all who say Lord,Lord shall enter heaven.

Hidden Manna--We hunger for truth but this manna is hidden to or difficult to see or discover.

White stone--This is an elusive phrase ,has at least one name written IN it and no man knows the new name except for one who receives it.But how does one receive it? What language of the word written in the stone?If the word is in the stone then it must be opened to reveal the word.What material is this stone?What  writing insturment is used to write in the stone?

All things will be revealed in heaven so this is one for down here for us on Earth.

What else is written in it?

Does only one word encompass all the hidden manna the verse describes?

If one was to find the white stone and read the new name written in it and possibly more such as the remaining sealed material will anyone else believe it?Since another person has yet to receive it or has not received it and therefore rejects it for whatever reason they may state.

 

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Earl said:

 

Hi,new member here.

This topic is an interesting one.I have no knowledge of the LDS and the sealed material however there is a comparative statement in Revelations 2.17....to him that overcometh  will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written,which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.KJV

Overcometh--A confusing word for Jesus said not all who say Lord,Lord shall enter heaven.

Hidden Manna--We hunger for truth but this manna is hidden to or difficult to see or discover.

White stone--This is an elusive phrase ,has at least one name written IN it and no man knows the new name except for one who receives it.But how does one receive it? What language of the word written in the stone?If the word is in the stone then it must be opened to reveal the word.What material is this stone?What  writing insturment is used to write in the stone?

All things will be revealed in heaven so this is one for down here for us on Earth.

What else is written in it?

Does only one word encompass all the hidden manna the verse describes?

If one was to find the white stone and read the new name written in it and possibly more such as the remaining sealed material will anyone else believe it?Since another person has yet to receive it or has not received it and therefore rejects it for whatever reason they may state.

 

I can offer a rather quick, non-LDS interpretation of the reference from Revelation. The letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Revelation 2-3) speak much of trouble and persecution. So, Jesus' call to overcome can simply mean to withstand the temptation to renounce Christ in the face of all the trouble. Manna is the famous Old Testament provision during the Israelites' 40 years in the desert. It is God's help when we need it. The white stone was a common invitation form, much like an RSVP card today. The new name might be along the line of Jacob becoming Israel, or Saul becoming Paul. Once I was lost and a source of woe, now I am found and bring what scant representation of Christ's light I can.

[person0]

3 hours ago, Earl said:

. . . there is a comparative statement in Revelations 2.17....to him that overcometh  will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone a new name written,which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

In trying to place the LDS interpretation into lay man's terms, I would say the white stone is essentially a gift from God that has a two fold purpose.  First it gives us the new name, which is important in multiple ways, but could ultimately boil down to what @prisonchaplain already said (i.e. something like Jacob becoming Israel was a new name).  Second, it is a tool with which God will enable us to access additional light and knowledge.  Hidden manna represents everlasting life made available through Jesus Christ, who is the bread of life, just as the Lord made manna available to the Israelites.

Edited March 21, 2018 by person0

[Earl]

New member here

Here is another comparrison

Rev.10.8-11.The scroll was withheld from the people.It's content was about many peoples ,nations and kings.

Compared to 3 Nephi 26.-The greater or more part of the things. .But the Lord forbade it.

Is the greater things also about the histories of mankind?

[CV75]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:12 PM, person0 said:

I am thinking that rather than people joining the Church in droves, there would probably remain a large scale apostasy with denominations accepting both the Book of Mormon and Bible, and yet rejecting much of everything else.  Some might then accept Joseph Smith but claim that there was no succession afterward. Others might claim he was a prophet only until the translation was complete, or that he was never actually a prophet but simply a servant of God.  And yet others would likely even point to him as a wicked man who wanted to take the glory of the translation to himself while hiding the plates from the rest of the world.  We would then have many groups re-translate and make their own demographically catered versions.

In light of a continued apostasy even with proof, there are existing 'scholarly' articles about how the doctrine of the trinity is compatible with the Book of Mormon.  With so many denominations having the Bible, and yet differing doctrines, why would we expect it to be any different?  From this perspective, it makes even more sense why the Lord wouldn't bother to lay out additional physical evidence. We don't need that kind of confusion on top of what's already out there.  I am actually grateful this is not the case.  I would rather have my spiritual confirmation from the Holy Ghost and no physical plates.

Thoughts?

I sometimes think the Lord's comment in response to criticism about how funds were used -- "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always" -- had as much to do with the critics than the poor. There will always be those who will find fault with how the Lord sees and does things.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Earl said:

Rev.10.8-11.The scroll was withheld from the people.It's content was about many peoples ,nations and kings.

Compared to 3 Nephi 26.-The greater or more part of the things. .But the Lord forbade it.

These are related.

The Revelation reference is talking about a charge to do missionary work.  The Book of Mormon is a large part of that.  Thus the "book" was both literal and figurative.  Literally because it is the Book of Mormon.  Figurative because it refers to missionary work in general (and flooding the world with the Book of Mormon is a primary part of that mission).

And the additional knowledge of the gospel as well as the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon will eventually be made known unto those who believe.

Also remember that the 7th angel represents the opening of the Millennial era.  That includes, in part, our dispensation since we're the preparatory dispensation.  Then in verse 11, we find that John, himself, will be made known unto men to prophesy and teach many things.  As the Millennium begins, all these things will be made clear.