Socialized medicine

[Guest Scott]

 

Here are some conflicting comments from another thread (Bad Intentions thread), but it deserves it's own topic:

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I can assure you that socialized medicine isnt evil

 

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I assure you it is evil. Anything the government fully pays for the government absolutely controls, but under the US Constitution — the system of earthly government the Lord himself approves for the governance of all humanity — the people are supposed to have sovereign control over their own healthcare

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Social healthcare doesn't remove agency. 

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You're kidding right?  I mean, you can't possibly be serious.

This is one instance where I would agree with Rob.

Why are so many LDS people so against any form of socialized medicine?  

For many of those that need healthcare, the only choices are either to let your loved one die or to go bankrupt and to lose everything.   I don't see how this is true agency.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[anatess2]

16 minutes ago, Scott said:

 

Here are some conflicting comments from another thread (Bad Intentions thread), but it deserves it's own topic:

 

This is one instance where I would agree with Rob.

Why are so many LDS people so against any form of socialized medicine?  

For many of those that need healthcare, the only choices are either to let your loved one die or to go bankrupt.   I don't see how this is true agency.

 

 

The bolded one is where the metal hits the pedal.  The government is not the only choice - nor is it a good choice.  You are supposed to help your loved one.  Not some nebulous, faceless entity out there who wields power.  So, here's the question - why does your family, neighborhood, community, etc., need the government to provide people with healthcare when you can simply organize it yourselves?  That is a simple question that has a simple answer - because you want to wield the government's power to force others to do what you want done.... or, you want to remove their agency to do what they will with their talent or money.

True agency is - I choose to eat 10 large pizzas with a 64-oz soda in one sitting every day.  If it makes me sick, then nobody else has to pay for my healthcare either.

Now, here's the flip side of that coin - the government can't even properly manage the education of children, illegal immigration, and even the simple task of taking care of the health of our vets... and you trust them with the entire population's healthcare????

Edited July 31, 2018 by anatess2

[omegaseamaster75]

HAve you ever been to the DMV?

When has the government successfully run anything?

[Guest Scott]

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You are supposed to help your loved one.

Agreed.

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So, here's the question - why does your family, neighborhood, community, etc., need the government to provide people with healthcare when you can simply organize it yourselves? 

Supposedly it is organized ourselves or at least by businesses.   How else do you organize it? 

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That is a simple question that has a simple answer - because you want to force others to do what you want done.... 

As for me, I think insurance and healthcare should be affordable.  If I pay for insurance, I want to be assured that it can be used when the time comes.

I will share my own experience.   

I make a good wage and have worked all my life.  I left home at age 16, joined the military on my 17th birthday and then came came home briefly before getting married just after my 19th birthday.  I have never been on public assistance, nor have I ever been unemployed.   I have been paying my insurance premiums for decades without using much of it.   We have been very charitable towards others, even to the point of sharing our own house and vehicles free of charge to those who need them.  We have done a lot of Church work and over the years have contributed six figures to tithing.

Now that my 16 year old son is having health problems, he is in a treatment center.   We have the choice of letting him die or losing everything (except his life).   We're probably going to lose our house, all of our retirement, all of our savings, etc.  

How is it agency having to choose between your son's life or everything that you own?   Under our supposed free-market, the insurance companies have complete control over what they  pay for and how much and they don't care how long you have been paying your premiums.   How is this agency? 

My son went to the treatment center in April.   Here are our out of pocket expenses since April:

We are only 1/3 of the way through his treatment and have 8 more months to go.   We have been fighting the insurance company the entire time. 

How is this agency?   Our only choices are to lose everything or to lose our son.   Is that really agency?
 

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When has the government successfully run anything?

 

 

 

Healthcare works in other countries  for a much lower cost and for better care.  Why couldn't it work here?   There has to be a way, though I don't have a solution.

Obviously having the for profit insurance companies run everything isn't working that well either.

What is your solution?   I admit that I don't know of a good one, but our healthcare system now is broken.

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HAve you ever been to the DMV?

Yes.   Have you ever tried to come up with more than half a million dollars in one year in order to save a family member?

People who think healthcare should be affordable are ridiculed as wanting handouts or said to be lazy.   The truth is that a lot of them are hard working good people who think that don't want something for free, but after paying premiums do want healthcare to be affordable enough that you don't have to choose between saving a family members life or losing everything.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

HAve you ever been to the DMV?

When has the government successfully run anything?

This may be my primary beef against government-run health care (or insurance). If it were a voluntary, opt-in system that the government ran efficiently, I would have no more objection to it than I have to public schools. (Not that public schools are efficiently run -- quite the opposite, in my experience -- but in principle, I have no problem with government assuming certain private-sector responsibilities as long as sufficient safeguards and opt-outs are in place.) But the government exists to govern, not to provide health care. It is simply the wrong entity to provide such services. And given the nature of government, it is a dangerous entity to provide such services, truly the wolf being put in charge of the henhouse.

[Guest Scott]

PS, what if the Church itself had a perpetual healthcare fund, similar to the perpetual education fund in that people are expected to pay back everything that they can?

As of right now, the Church doesn't help at all with health care expenditures.  

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[omegaseamaster75]

11 minutes ago, Scott said:

Agreed.

Supposedly it is organized ourselves or at least by businesses.   How else do you organize it? 

As for me, I think insurance and healthcare should be affordable.  If I pay for insurance, I want to be assured that it can be used when the time comes.

I will share my own experience.   

I make a good wage and have worked all my life.  I left home at age 16, joined the military on my 17th birthday and then came came home briefly before getting married just after my 19th birthday.  I have never been on public assistance, nor have I ever been unemployed.   I have been paying my insurance premiums for decades without using much of it.   We have been very charitable towards others, even to the point of sharing our own house and vehicles free of charge to those who need them.  We have done a lot of Church work and over the years have contributed six figures to tithing.

Now that my 16 year old son is having health problems, he is in a treatment center.   We have the choice of letting him die or losing everything (except his life).   We're probably going to lose our house, all of our retirement, all of our savings, etc.  

How is it agency having to choose between your son's life or everything that you own?   Under our supposed free-market, the insurance companies have complete control over what they  pay for and how much and they don't care how long you have been paying your premiums.   How is this agency? 

My son went to the treatment center in April.   Here are our out of pocket expenses since April:

We are only 1/3 of the way through his treatment and have 8 more months to go.   We have been fighting the insurance company the entire time. 

How is this agency?   Our only choices are to lose everything or to lose our son.   Is that really agency?
 

Healthcare works in other countries  for a much lower cost and for better care.  Why couldn't it work here?   There has to be a way, though I don't have a solution.

Obviously having the for profit insurance companies run everything isn't working that well either.

What is your solution?   I admit that I don't know of a good one, but our healthcare system now is broken.

Yes.   Have you ever tried to come up with more than half a million dollars in one year in order to save a family member?

People who think healthcare should be affordable are ridiculed as wanting handouts or said to be lazy.   The truth is that a lot of them are hard working good people who think that don't want something for free, but after paying premiums do want healthcare to be affordable enough that you don't have to choose between saving a family members life or losing everything.  

I don't know what insurance plan you have and I am sorry that you are struggling with this it is terrible. 

I do know this, pre Obama care I had affordable insurance with low deductibles and high levels of coverage. I don't want to make this a political discussion however post Obama care my insurance is slightly better that catastrophic insurance, high deductibles brutally high, low coverage % by the insurer and I have the pleasure of paying more for it.  I feel your pain. 

[Guest Scott]

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But the government exists to govern, not to provide health care.

It's supposed to preserve life.   What if the only choice of healthcare is either death or becoming homeless?  I guess you could say that the latter is still an acceptable choice, but is this really good for mankind?   Is this what God would want. 

Again, I don't know what the best solution is.

 

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, Scott said:

How is it agency having to choose between your son's life or everything that you own?

How is that not agency? I'm sorry for your trials; I can only imagine how awful it must be, and I hope never to have to do more than imagine. But choices such as you describe are exactly what it means to be an agent. Whatever point you're trying to make is lost on me when you rhetorically ask an obviously true question with an expected negative answer.

14 minutes ago, Scott said:

Healthcare works in other countries  for a much lower cost and for better care.

"Lower cost"? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? European income tax rates are typically over 50% -- and note that the US is largely subsidizing their national defense costs. Make them pay their own defense costs, and the European economy goes up in smoke. I believe their healthcare is unsustainable at any decent level of care. 

I'm not going to argue that the US medical system is not screwed up, because it is -- badly. I will strongly argue that solving US health care woes by instituting government-run mandatory health care is like solving a broken leg by amputation. We absolutely do not want to go that route.

[Guest Scott]

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I don't know what insurance plan you have and I am sorry that you are struggling with this it is terrible. 

I have United Heath Care which is the biggest insurer in the United States.  Supposedly it is one of the better plans.

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I do know this, pre Obama care I had affordable insurance with low deductibles and high levels of coverage

It is true that premiums rose a lot under Obamacare.   They still rose at a slower rate than they did before Obamacare.   Obamacare or not, healthcare costs are spiraling out of control.  Obviously Obamacare failed to do what it promised to do, but it isn't the only thing failing.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Scott said:

PS, what if the Church itself had a perpetual healthcare fund, similar to the perpetual education fund in that people are expected to pay back everything that they can?

I think this would be a wonderful idea, either on a strictly private or on a Church-wide basis. Logistically, there are obvious problems that would prevent the Church from ever instituting such a thing in our modern world.

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

As of right now, the Church doesn't help at all with health care expenditures.

Is there some idea out there that the Church should help with health care expenditures? I don't recall that being any part of the baptismal covenant. Though I'm quite sure this statement is false, since I have seen the Church help out with certain health care payments.

[Guest Scott]

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Lower cost"? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes.  Here are the per capita health care expenditures by country:

 

So why is this?  

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I will strongly argue that solving US health care woes by instituting government-run mandatory health care is like solving a broken leg by amputation. We absolutely do not want to go that route

OK then what is your solution?  

And at the chance of the thread taking a wrong turn both major political parties in the United States are using healthcare as a political pawn and to try and hold America hostage into voting for their party.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Scott said:

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But the government exists to govern, not to provide health care.

It's supposed to preserve life.

Not really. It exists to allow people to create a society that nurtures and preserves life. The government exists to establish and defend borders, regulate commerce, and provide certain public services like policing and transportation infrastructure. What we do not want under almost any circumstance is a government that seeks to regulate all aspects of our lives. We are not the USSR or communist China. We are the US. We should be better than that.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes.  Here are the per capita health care expenditures by country:

Do you find the OECD unbiased and credible?

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

OK then what is your solution?

My solution? People should band together in extended family groups and pay their former "insurance premiums" into a low-risk investment pool, from which health care expenses are drawn. After ten years of this, the individuals involved can drastically lower their payments, because they will have built up a pool of a few million dollars that earns enough interest to offset some of the ongoing cost. Or they can keep paying in until the pool becomes entirely self-funding.

[Guest Scott]

 

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Is there some idea out there that the Church should help with health care expenditures?

No, but what if there were, such as a church run insurance program such as a perpetual healthcare fund where those who needed it could draw from it and could pay it back?

Do you think that it a good idea?

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 Though I'm quite sure this statement is false, since I have seen the Church help out with certain health care payments.

I was told no and that they only help out with things like keeping a roof over your head.   I was hoping never to use any kind of    To tell the truth I was a little bummed to find out that despite paying $120,000 in tithes and fast offerings that the Church can't help with medical expenditures.   

To be honest, I don't want to go to the Church for help anyway (I just asked the question), nor anyone else for help (including the government).   I just wish that there was an affordable way to get healthcare.

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We are the US. We should be better than that.

We should be yes, but are we?  Is having to choose between saving your son's life or losing everything really "better"?   I don't know, but what do you think.

We have to come up with $600,000 if we want to our son's life (or go bankrupt and lose everything including the house).  I have figured that between my employer and I we have paid approximately $330,000 in insurance premiums over the years.

My expectation isn't that healthcare should be free, but that it should be possible to pay into a system and expect treatment. 

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People should band together in extended family groups and pay their former "insurance premiums" into a low-risk investment pool, from which health care expenses are drawn.

That is a good solution and such programs to exist, but most of them are only catastrophic policies and are limited in what they are paid for.   If such a system would work, I'd also be for it.

----------------------------------------------

Anyway for the record, my son isn't some vegetable that we are keeping on life support and with no hope of a good life.

My son is incredibly smart and broke a state record for a school math test.  He is also very athletic and strong and does (or did) a lot of rock climbing and plays sports.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[Chilean]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

  Why are so many LDS people so against any form of socialized medicine?

That's an easy answer, cause they are more loyal to their party than to their fellow citizens in need. I am no democrat nor republican, I am right in the middle. I have no loyalties to anyone. 
Socialize healthcare can help those that cant afford to pay for insurance. Heck, insurance is expensive! I hate to think how expensive is to have healthcare in the states. I went to the ER a few months ago... they billed my insurance over $17,000. just for 2 hours! and I didn't even see a dr. Can you see where the problem is? Thank goodness I have insurance, but what abt those that don't?! It breaks my heart. Even what about those elderly people that receive crap from social security every month?? Oh it makes me so upset.  

We pride ourselves thinking this is the greatest country on earth, but we have our elderly and people afflicted with illnesses dying because they can't afford to get care. It shouldn't be like that.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Chilean

[estradling75]

Socialized... Medicine...  really means Government controlled medicine... There is no other way.

Government is the Imposing of Morality of the stronger on the weaker...  Which most people are ok with when they are the stronger...  the problem comes when they are the weaker party  and do not like the Imposing Morality.

Point of Fact in the USA the Stronger and Weaker swap out pretty regularly (aka the two party system) if you are not aligned with one of them you are always weaker, even when you are aligned you are weaker a good part of the time.

So ask yourself do you want Hilary or Trump being in charge of your Healthcare?... because that is what happens if you socialize it.

Of course our current system is not great but I fail to see how the government would do anything but make it worse.

Also another point of Fact...  Healthcare is not a RIGHT and it has not been for the entirely of human existence.  Healthcare is and always has been a privilege afforded by those that can pay for it.   For all of human history what happened to someone with some kind of major medical issue?... usually they died.  It sucked but that was the way it was... If they didn't it was usually because of the charity of others (family members, Church groups, strangers)

Today we live at a time greater access and affordably of healthcare in the entirely of human existences and people still complain

Edited July 31, 2018 by estradling75

[Manners Matter]

@Scott I'm sorry for your struggles. You haven't said what the health issue is but if you haven't yet, start googling information on natural remedies. There are so many options out there that are not only non-invasive but more effective and cheaper than what the medical system offers.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Chilean said:

That's an easy answer, cause they are more loyal to their party than to their fellow citizens in need.

What a tremendously unkind, uncharitable, judgmental, and false thing to say.

[Guest Scott]

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Healthcare is and always has been a privilege afforded by those that can pay for it.

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For all of human history what happened to someone with some kind of major medical issue?... usually they died.

 

Is that what God wants?  This is a serious question. 

Did God allow mankind to obtain medical knowledge only so it could benefit only the very rich?   This is another serious question.

 

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Today we live at a time greater access and affordably of healthcare in the entirely of human existences and people still complain

So worrying about having to lose everything to save my son (which is what I will do when it comes down to it) is only a simple complaint?

Also, a lot of people are a lot worth that we are.

I make a really good wage in the scheme of things.    How many people can really come up with half a million or a million dollars on the spot?

We have been careful with money, have saved well, have stayed out of debt, paid tithing, worked for decades, and it's still hard for us to come up with $600,000 in a single year.  Other people have to pay a lot more than we do.

How many people can come up with this?

Can you?   Can anyone on this forum?

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 You haven't said what the health issue is

i won't on a public forum, other than it is a brain abnormality. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott

[Chilean]

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

I was told no and that they only help out with things like keeping a roof over your head.   I was hoping never to use any kind of    To tell the truth I was a little bummed to find out that despite paying $120,000 in tithes and fast offerings that the Church can't help with medical expenditures. 

I am sorry, but what youre saying is bullcrap! My son had cancer, 7 yrs ago when he was just diagnosed our bishop offer to help, we didn't want the help, as we were getting by fine. But they still helped us (It wasn't more than $700, as I remember it was just one bill we let them helped us with)  So... I don't know why they wouldn't help you, unless something has change in this last 7 years.

The Gospel is true though. Don't get upset. Pray to have yours and his heart soften.

[Sunday21]

@Scott I am so sorry for your troubles! I am Canadian so I see things from a different perspective. My younger brother was in Toronto Sick kids for years. My parents did not need to worry about the bills. Good luck! 

[zil]

Insurance and absurd awards from lawsuits are the problem, not healthcare itself.  And if you think we have a free market for healthcare and insurance in the US, I think you're nuts.  I think we have a bunch of geographic monopolies.  Get rid of insurance. Get rid of ridiculous awards when someone sues a doctor / hospital (reasonable ought to be sufficient).  Get rid of the regulations which make things more expensive than necessary without actually making things better.  Add real competition to drive efficiency and competitive pricing in the industry.

Of course, none of that is going to happen.  No one dares / will tolerate drastic changes to the healthcare system.  The good news is, one day, the world will end.

10 minutes ago, Scott said:

Healthcare works in other countries  for a much lower cost and for better care.

Tell that to the family in England who weren't allowed to take their son out of the country.  By involving government, you invite healthcare decisions to be made using mechanical, flow-chart-driven, cost-benefit analyses.  And while you now have an unfortunate choice, the government-run choice might well be that your son's life isn't worth the cost of care.

Meanwhile, ten years or so ago, a Canadian wrote an article to Americans (who were just beginning to openly discuss socialized healthcare), and he pointed out, among other problems, that at present, in his area, the waiting list for a spot in the maternity ward was 9 months long - yes, you would have to reserve your spot before you even knew you were pregnant.  Not sure this is a good indicator of "success".

Just now, Scott said:

They still rose at a slower rate than they did before Obamacare.

For you maybe, but sure not for me.  Our healthcare insurance premiums and costs were cheap and barely going up for over ten years, and the year before Obamacare was announced, our rates didn't increase at all - not by one cent.  After it was passed, but before it took effect, rates started skyrocketing and haven't stopped.  As best I can tell, people who had no insurance, or whose companies were lousy at negotiating contracts may have benefited from Obamacare, but for those who had good insurance, Obamacare said, "We're gonna screw you so we can cover everyone else, or at least make it so other people think their crappy state is no worse than anyone else's."

And that, frankly, is the reason socialism is evil - it encourages the worst in us and discourages the best in us.

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If they didn't it was usually because of the charity of other (family members, Church groups, strangers) 

And that's the point - no one thinks they have the resources to be charitable.  They wonder why your insurance or welfare, or something other than them, can't pay.  They don't understand why they should "have to" when there are so many "programs" out there.  The programs take away resources, waste them, and discourage people from saving and using their resources charitably.  We have stopped believing in personal responsibility and come to believe in letting programs or paid services cover everything so we can go to the movies (or whatever).

IMO, it's too late.  Cross your fingers and hope the world ends tomorrow.

1 minute ago, Chilean said:

I am sorry, but what youre saying is bullcrap! My son had cancer, 7 yrs ago when he was just diagnosed our bishop offer to help, we didn't want the help, as we were getting by fine. But they still helped us (It wasn't more than $700, as I remember it was just one bill we let them helped us with)  So... I don't know why they wouldn't help you, unless something has change in this last 7 years.

The Gospel is true though. Don't get upset. Pray to have yours and his heart soften.

There appears to be a lot of discretion locally, and a lot of dependence on local fast offerings, so while the Church as a whole might have the resources, there may be too little in-flow in his ward for the bishop to have enough to help - I don't know.  (I could be all wrong, but this is my impression at present.)

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

Is that what God wants?  This is a serious question.

God allows us to structure our societies as we see fit. Judging by the scripture records we have, when the Lord dwelt among us in a tabernacle of flesh, he devoted no significant effort at all to reforming societal functions to "level the playing field". He ministered to those in need. He warned the rich that they would perish with their riches if they worshipped their riches instead of worshipping him whose riches they truly were, but as far as I can tell, he didn't do a single thing to reform the structure the perpetuated the status of the rich. He sought to change people from within, so that they would then change their society, rather than forcing societal change in hopes of making things more equitable.

The French Revolution is a pretty good example of people trying to force societal change to benefit the underprivileged. The Soviet Union is an even more recent example.

[Guest Scott]

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There appears to be a lot of discretion locally, and a lot of dependence on local fast offerings, so while the Church as a whole might have the resources, there may be too little in-flow in his ward for the bishop to have enough to help - I don't know.  (I could be all wrong, but this is my impression at present.)

This is probably it.  We live in a small and dying mining town out in the middle of nowhere and the town and two remaining wards are dying.  We dissolved one ward and one of the other two may dissolve in the near future.  

Edited July 31, 2018 by Scott